I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

In places with high salt content in the soil already, soil amendments that
are high in salts can be bad news.

Una

Bill who putters wrote:
I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I
purchased granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was
various manures if I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

I think the problem has several parts.

1) What is suitable for domestic composting? I have composted corpses too
but you have to bury them deep or some kindly neighbour will unearth them
for you. My heaps are large and away from houses.

2) What is acceptable to the residents? In this district chicken litter is
applied to the fields in quantity (but usually only once a year or less)
which is clearly not possible in a city for several reasons. Some farmers
were using sewerage sludge often and not following the rules about turning
it in straight away. They were castigated and required to cease.

3) What can be harmful in itself to the environment? Some minerals eg
gypsum can contain heavy metals and so long term application is not good.
Some sewerage sludge can also contain things like heavy metals.
Inappropriate application of soluble fertiliser near waterways pollutes them
considerably. Blooms of algae and water plants can be a huge environmental
headache.

4) What is a reasonable price in cash? I don't know about the
sustainability of harvesting peat moss, I don't use it because it is very
expensive here and there are plenty of alternatives, probably because it has
to travel a long way. That in itself may render it unsustainbale here in
the long run.

5) What is not sustainable in the long term? Fill in your own blanks here,
probably anything with a fixed supply and a growing rate of use, petroleum
and phosphate rock are obvious. Anything that has to be carried a long
distance is doubtful. Anything that is a byproduct is attractive provided
it passes the other tests.

In summary use what is local as much as possible and THINK before you apply
it every time.

David

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease issues.

In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease issues.

Another approach is to only use "organic" fish emulsion.
Besides Mercury, fish may contain Selenium, DDT, PCBs, Dioxins,
pesticides, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polybrominated
diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which are used widely as flame retardants.
All bad stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_oi...in_supplements
A March 2010 lawsuit filed by a California environmental group claims
that eight popular brands of fish oil supplements contained excessive
levels of PCBs, including CVS/pharmacy, Nature Made, Rite Aid, GNC,
Solgar, Twinlab, Now Health, Omega Protein and Pharmavite.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

I'd think it would depend on what they are. I'll only use "organic" fish
emulsion now. Part of the problem is the vast amount of plastic from
shopping bags to six-pack holders that is in the oceans now. A
distressing attribute of plastic is its ability to attract and
concentrate PCB, PBDE, dioxins, and DDT. The plastic breaks down into
smaller and smaller bits, which are taken up by aquatic life, and hence
to the top predators (us).
Municipal sludge is out as was seen in the fiasco of Michelle Obama
trying to plant an organic garden where sludge had been sprayed on the
White House lawn (heavy metals).
Fresh manure or house hold sewage is acceptable, as long as it is kept
off the the parts of the plant to be eaten for at least 4 months.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear
by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I
purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various
manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the
soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a
mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease
issues.

Another approach is to only use "organic" fish emulsion.
Besides Mercury, fish may contain Selenium, DDT, PCBs, Dioxins,
pesticides, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polybrominated
diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which are used widely as flame retardants.
All bad stuff.

Selenium is bad?
I thought that was a needed mineral for the body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_oi...in_supplements
A March 2010 lawsuit filed by a California environmental group claims
that eight popular brands of fish oil supplements contained excessive
levels of PCBs, including CVS/pharmacy, Nature Made, Rite Aid, GNC,
Solgar, Twinlab, Now Health, Omega Protein and Pharmavite.

Whew... Glad you did not mention the Fisol brand. I take the one that
has 70% strength, deep ocean fish and no mercury listed on the bottle
and expensive about $35/bottle. Doctor Prescribed it for my Mom who has
AMD, Age-related macular degeneration, so if it is good for my mom, its
good for me?????

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

Dan L wrote:
Billy wrote:
In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear
by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I
purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various
manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the
soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted
barber hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a
mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease
issues.

Another approach is to only use "organic" fish emulsion.
Besides Mercury, fish may contain Selenium, DDT, PCBs, Dioxins,
pesticides, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polybrominated
diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which are used widely as flame retardants.
All bad stuff.

Selenium is bad?
I thought that was a needed mineral for the body.


Selenium is a trace element required by some plants and animals, it is also
used in dandruff shampoo. It isn't very toxic. Mercury, PCBs and Dioxin
are another matter.

The principle is sound though that you need to to read the fine print
regarding minor components of soil amendments, especially regarding
long-lived and cumulative toxins.

David

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

It's a question most gardeners I know grapple with Bill. I live in the
country and the garden on this farm has been made on the side of a stoney
slope. Farmers don't put their houses on good soil, they put it on the
shitty stuff because income comes from the good soil.

The unimproved soil was appalling - dunno how to describe it but it's the
colour of the poo a calf with the scours produces - yellow, unhealthy
looking stuff - it's full of small rocks quartz and shale/mudstone.

Everything I need for the garden except animal poop has to be brought in,
but to get some of the animal poop eg, the chook poop, I need food for the
chooks to be brought in. I have to hunt the plops the cattle leave all over
the paddocks.

I recycle and return to the soil as much as I can but all rose prunings go
to the tip and in spring when I'm overwhelmed with giant weeds, some of
those go to the tip too as I can't get to them before they get seed heads
and I can never make and turn a hot compost. My compost tends to be more
weed piles that rot over time. I'm better at tumble compost bins. Dead
chhoks get buried in the bottom of these weed piles.

I've found straw bales work as a good soil improver for me and also sawdust.
The sort of quatities of peat that you Nth Americans write about using has
never, ever been possible here in Oz. The most we could even buy would be a
small pack that could be used to line hanging baskets with so we've never
had the chance to use it to add to beds to 'lighten' the soil. In fact I
can't even imagine why you'd use it to 'lighten' the soil. I add sand and
rotted stuff from the bottom of my weed piles or rotted hay bales to break
up my clayey soil. That and turning in old dead stuff dropped on the
surface from weeding.

Interesting question. I'll have to think about it some more.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

It's a question most gardeners I know grapple with Bill. I live in
the
country and the garden on this farm has been made on the side of a
stoney
slope. Farmers don't put their houses on good soil, they put it on
the
shitty stuff because income comes from the good soil.

The unimproved soil was appalling - dunno how to describe it but it's
the
colour of the poo a calf with the scours produces - yellow, unhealthy
looking stuff - it's full of small rocks quartz and shale/mudstone.

Everything I need for the garden except animal poop has to be brought
in,
but to get some of the animal poop eg, the chook poop, I need food for
the
chooks to be brought in. I have to hunt the plops the cattle leave
all over
the paddocks.

I recycle and return to the soil as much as I can but all rose
prunings go
to the tip and in spring when I'm overwhelmed with giant weeds, some
of
those go to the tip too as I can't get to them before they get seed
heads
and I can never make and turn a hot compost. My compost tends to be
more
weed piles that rot over time. I'm better at tumble compost bins.
Dead
chhoks get buried in the bottom of these weed piles.

Why can't you make a hot compost pile?
Sounds like you have a farm. If you have a tractor with a front loader,
you can easily turn a large hot compost open pile.

I've found straw bales work as a good soil improver for me and also
sawdust.
The sort of quatities of peat that you Nth Americans write about using
has
never, ever been possible here in Oz. The most we could even buy
would be a
small pack that could be used to line hanging baskets with so we've
never
had the chance to use it to add to beds to 'lighten' the soil. In
fact I
can't even imagine why you'd use it to 'lighten' the soil. I add sand
and
rotted stuff from the bottom of my weed piles or rotted hay bales to
break
up my clayey soil. That and turning in old dead stuff dropped on the
surface from weeding.

Interesting question. I'll have to think about it some more.

Why add sand?
I thought sand + clay = concrete.
I believe organic material alone will help modify the soil.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:26:36 +1100, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

It's a question most gardeners I know grapple with Bill. I live in the
country and the garden on this farm has been made on the side of a stoney
slope. Farmers don't put their houses on good soil, they put it on the
shitty stuff because income comes from the good soil.

The unimproved soil was appalling - dunno how to describe it but it's the
colour of the poo a calf with the scours produces - yellow, unhealthy
looking stuff - it's full of small rocks quartz and shale/mudstone.

Everything I need for the garden except animal poop has to be brought in,
but to get some of the animal poop eg, the chook poop, I need food for the
chooks to be brought in. I have to hunt the plops the cattle leave all over
the paddocks.

I recycle and return to the soil as much as I can but all rose prunings go
to the tip and in spring when I'm overwhelmed with giant weeds, some of
those go to the tip too as I can't get to them before they get seed heads
and I can never make and turn a hot compost. My compost tends to be more
weed piles that rot over time. I'm better at tumble compost bins. Dead
chhoks get buried in the bottom of these weed piles.

I've found straw bales work as a good soil improver for me and also sawdust.
The sort of quatities of peat that you Nth Americans write about using has
never, ever been possible here in Oz. The most we could even buy would be a
small pack that could be used to line hanging baskets with so we've never
had the chance to use it to add to beds to 'lighten' the soil. In fact I
can't even imagine why you'd use it to 'lighten' the soil. I add sand and
rotted stuff from the bottom of my weed piles or rotted hay bales to break
up my clayey soil. That and turning in old dead stuff dropped on the
surface from weeding.

Interesting question. I'll have to think about it some more.


In other words, as they say in the real estate business, it all boils
down to location, location, location.
Here in my location, Southern Ontario, Canada, in spring, every garden
center, hardware store, big box store or roadside stand has bales of
sphagnum peat moss for sale. Usual size is 3.8 cu. ft. and the bales
are compacted making them relatively heavy and hard as a brick. Price
averages CND$8.00/bale. End of season on sale prices can be as much as
50% off.
According to the International Peat Conference, Canada has an
estimated 272 million acres of peatland, second only to the former
USSR (371 million acres).
Australia & Oceania combined have less than 2.5 million acres.

Therefore, in reply to your post where you stated:

Quote
I'm stunned that any gardener these days would recommend, approve or
in any way encourage the use of either spagnum or peat. The use of
these in any garden where the gardener has even any mild concern for
the environment is a total no-no.
Coconut fibre is OK and is a very good replacement.
End Quote

I, and many of my fellow gardeners have very much more than a mild
concern for the environment and, if we lived in Oz, where sphagnum
peat moss is basically an "endangered species", we would probably
agree with you.
However, it is unfair to belittle gardeners in another area where it
is a renewable, economical, readily available and excellent soil
amendment.
Without the slightest twinge of conscience, I will eschew coconut
fibre and continue to use sphagnum peat moss, along with material from
our own compost pile(s) on the gardens.

Ross.
Southern Ontario, Canada.
AgCanada Zone 5b
43º 17' 26.75" North
80º 13' 29.46" West

In article , Ross@home
wrote:

Interesting question. I'll have to think about it some more.


In other words, as they say in the real estate business, it all boils
down to location, location, location.
Here in my location, Southern Ontario, Canada, in spring, every garden
center, hardware store, big box store or roadside stand has bales of
sphagnum peat moss for sale. Usual size is 3.8 cu. ft. and the bales
are compacted making them relatively heavy and hard as a brick. Price
averages CND$8.00/bale. End of season on sale prices can be as much as
50% off.
According to the International Peat Conference, Canada has an
estimated 272 million acres of peatland, second only to the former
USSR (371 million acres).
Australia & Oceania combined have less than 2.5 million acres.

Therefore, in reply to your post where you stated:

Quote
I'm stunned that any gardener these days would recommend, approve or
in any way encourage the use of either spagnum or peat. The use of
these in any garden where the gardener has even any mild concern for
the environment is a total no-no.
Coconut fibre is OK and is a very good replacement.
End Quote

I, and many of my fellow gardeners have very much more than a mild
concern for the environment and, if we lived in Oz, where sphagnum
peat moss is basically an "endangered species", we would probably
agree with you.
However, it is unfair to belittle gardeners in another area where it
is a renewable, economical, readily available and excellent soil
amendment.
Without the slightest twinge of conscience, I will eschew coconut
fibre and continue to use sphagnum peat moss, along with material from
our own compost pile(s) on the gardens.

Ross.
Southern Ontario, Canada.
AgCanada Zone 5b
43º 17' 26.75" North
80º 13' 29.46" West

If you look at the first citation that FarmI gave
http://www.imcg.net/docum/brisbane.htm
you'll see that it was sponsored in part by:
Canadian Wildlife Service, Environment Canada,
and North American Wetlands Conservation Council (Canada),
2 groups which must be familiar with Canadian resources, yet still call
for conservation.

So if peat is plentiful, and renewable, why not use it? You will have
noticed that peat bogs are wetlands, and I think that it is in the
functioning of wetlands that you will find your answer.

Wetlands:
1) purify water,

2) offer habitat to support biodiversity,

3) in relation to the above, provide sustainable food to local
communities,

4) function as a carbon sink by sequestering atmospheric CO2. The carbon
stored in peat represents one quarter of the World's soil carbon pool

The fact that peat deposits are large and renewable doesn't alter that
their diminution adversely affects the above 4 points.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

In article ,
Dan L wrote:

Why add sand?
I thought sand + clay = concrete.
I believe organic material alone will help modify the soil.

Sand + clay will lead to harder soil.
Sand + clay + organic material (rye, buckwheat) will lead to more
workable soil. Organic material must be renewed to maintain soil
fertility.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Dan L wrote:

Why add sand?
I thought sand + clay = concrete.
I believe organic material alone will help modify the soil.

Sand + clay will lead to harder soil.
Sand + clay + organic material (rye, buckwheat) will lead to more
workable soil. Organic material must be renewed to maintain soil
fertility.

Hmmm...
Will you need more organic material with the sand?

Are you saying sand+organic is better than organic alone as a soil
amendment?

So I can improve more soil by adding sand and stretching out my organic
material?

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

In article ,
Dan L wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Dan L wrote:

Why add sand?
I thought sand + clay = concrete.
I believe organic material alone will help modify the soil.

Sand + clay will lead to harder soil.
Sand + clay + organic material (rye, buckwheat) will lead to more
workable soil. Organic material must be renewed to maintain soil
fertility.

Hmmm...
Will you need more organic material with the sand?
More than what?

Are you saying sand+organic is better than organic alone as a soil
amendment?
Yes.

So I can improve more soil by adding sand and stretching out my organic
material?

The best garden soil is 30% - 40% sand, 30% - 40% silt, and 20% - 30%
clay. Amend as necessary to approach these numbers. The above should
constitute 90% - 95% of the soil. The other 10% - 5% should be organic
material.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug