Opps, wrong link. Here it is: https://outdoorfield.com/vinegar-natural-weed-killer/

On 04/15/2016 04:15 AM, Wolf Phan wrote:
'T[_4_ Wrote:
;1018930']'Vinegar Weed Killer: Grandma's Recipe For Fast Weed Control'
(http://tinyurl.com/lkeudq)

Damn things see to enjoy being sprayed.

What am I doing wrong?

I am using the 5% stuff. Can't find the 20% stuff

Using only vinegar is better than combine with soap.
There are 3 vinegars you should use. You can check here for more
information:


The field '1bb8feffed6e2f161d9fb34c1b4cda2b' was not recognised.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

would you resend?


I found if I pour straight 6% on the weed that it messes up
the weed, but does not kill it. It is also really expensive
to use a cup of vinegar per weed

I got some 20% coming from Amazon.

What is your opinion of adding salt to the mixture?

In article , T wrote:

What is your opinion of adding salt to the mixture?

Great idea if you want to permanently poison your garden - old fashioned
traditional agro-terrorism to sow the opposition's fields with salt and
starve anyone they didn't kill directly. Pure idiocy otherwise.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

"T" wrote in message ...
On 04/15/2016 04:15 AM, Wolf Phan wrote:
'T[_4_ Wrote:
;1018930']'Vinegar Weed Killer: Grandma's Recipe For Fast Weed Control'
(http://tinyurl.com/lkeudq)

Damn things see to enjoy being sprayed.

What am I doing wrong?

I am using the 5% stuff. Can't find the 20% stuff

Using only vinegar is better than combine with soap.
There are 3 vinegars you should use. You can check here for more
information:


The field '1bb8feffed6e2f161d9fb34c1b4cda2b' was not recognised.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

would you resend?


I found if I pour straight 6% on the weed that it messes up
the weed, but does not kill it. It is also really expensive
to use a cup of vinegar per weed

I got some 20% coming from Amazon.

What is your opinion of adding salt to the mixture?



According to our gardening gurus
http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s3683147.htm a cup, 250ml, to a
litre of vinegar does the trick they also offer some other tips, only one of
which I have tried, Sheet solarisation, and living in the West of Australia
with plenty of sun and very little rain I found this to be very effective.

Mike

Bloke Down The Pub wrote:
"T" wrote in message
...
On 04/15/2016 04:15 AM, Wolf Phan wrote:
'T[_4_ Wrote:
;1018930']'Vinegar Weed Killer: Grandma's Recipe For Fast Weed
Control' (http://tinyurl.com/lkeudq)

Damn things see to enjoy being sprayed.

What am I doing wrong?

I am using the 5% stuff. Can't find the 20% stuff

Using only vinegar is better than combine with soap.
There are 3 vinegars you should use. You can check here for more
information:


The field '1bb8feffed6e2f161d9fb34c1b4cda2b' was not recognised.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

would you resend?


I found if I pour straight 6% on the weed that it messes up
the weed, but does not kill it. It is also really expensive
to use a cup of vinegar per weed

I got some 20% coming from Amazon.

What is your opinion of adding salt to the mixture?



According to our gardening gurus
http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s3683147.htm a cup, 250ml, to
a litre of vinegar does the trick they also offer some other tips,
only one of which I have tried, Sheet solarisation, and living in the
West of Australia with plenty of sun and very little rain I found
this to be very effective.
Mike

I've had a major part of my garden under plastic for several weeks now to
kill out the grass . I realized very early this spring that tilling was just
burying the grass seed to sprout later . Last year's heavy straw mulch
helped a lot , that in combination with the plastic might give me a chance
to get ahead of it and other unwanted growth . Of course that isn't an
option with the strawberry beds , I'm planning a vinegar douche there , in
hopes that it will give the strawberries a chance to shade out some of the
weeds/grasses .

--
Snag

Terry Coombs wrote:
....
I've had a major part of my garden under plastic for several weeks now to
kill out the grass .

it can take a few years to kill off the energy
stored in roots and the soil seed bank can be
viable for many years (varies by species).

mulch and cardboard layers will last a few years.

some plants need warmer soil to sprout or grow well
but once they are up and growing you can go along and
mulch around them and put cardboard in the rows and
then mulch on top of that.


I realized very early this spring that tilling was just
burying the grass seed to sprout later . Last year's heavy straw mulch
helped a lot ,

yes, by keeping sunlight and warmth from the top layer
of the soil you've reduced the number of seeds that will
be able to germinate.


that in combination with the plastic might give me a chance
to get ahead of it and other unwanted growth . Of course that isn't an
option with the strawberry beds , I'm planning a vinegar douche there , in
hopes that it will give the strawberries a chance to shade out some of the
weeds/grasses .

my strawberry beds get mulched with wood chips and hand
weeded, but after a few years they need to be renovated
anyways. after a few seasons i selectively smother about
1/3 of the plants and then let the surrounding plants
grow into the mulch. by the time the mulch has broken
down enough and the new plants are established the old
ones can then be smothered. i use a mix of wood chips and
partially decayed wood chips.

i also grow cover crops to help shade the plants during
the hot summer months in spots. these then become mulch.
beans/peas/soybeans/buckwheat, not too thick.


songbird

T wrote:
....
I found if I pour straight 6% on the weed that it messes up
the weed, but does not kill it. It is also really expensive
to use a cup of vinegar per weed

spray it on the leaves with a mister. should
not need that much.


I got some 20% coming from Amazon.

What is your opinion of adding salt to the mixture?

as idiotic as spraying weeds with vinegar. if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.


songbird

On 04/15/2016 09:17 PM, songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

-T

On 04/17/2016 05:07 PM, T wrote:
On 04/15/2016 09:17 PM, songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

On
one

of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks
weeds

managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

-T

In article , T wrote:
Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

Vinegar's effect is pretty much like cutting the tops off - dubious for
really killing the whole plant, other than repeat applications
eventually exhausting the roots, or for tender young weed seedlings.
Vinegar's effect on the pH of the soil would be fleeting at best. So
it's pretty valid to say that if you have time to pour a cup of vinegar
on the plant, you have time to chop the plant off with a hoe to similar
effect.

http://hyg.ipm.illinois.edu/pastpest/200714f.html

Too late for you now, but letting weeds go to seed is NOT what you want
to do when "in hope of replacing it with a garden" - you want to mow the
heck out of it right up until you turn it under or bury it with good
soil.

Roots can push into some pretty inhospitable soils. Depending on your pH
range, you might select a suitable cover crop/green manure, till the
mess, and plant the cover crop, precisely for the beneficial effect of
the roots (as well as the eventual decomposing of the top mass, and the
shading out of weeds.) If your pH is less than 8.2 (you said it was
alkaline, so the lower range of 6.0-6.3 won't apply to you) alfalfa can
do wonders as part of a "green manure" program, and will shove roots
amazing distances downward.

Vast quantities of "brown manure" (up to and including sheet composting
6-12" deep) will also help (both to build soil and to buffer pH.)

You might find this a worthwhile read WRT alkaline soils:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/Gardennotes/222.html
Depending on your free lime situation or lack thereof, sulfur may not or
may help with your pH (depending, of course, on exactly what it is and
if it needs help - start with a soil test.)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On 04/17/2016 07:32 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:
In article , T wrote:
Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

Vinegar's effect is pretty much like cutting the tops off - dubious for
really killing the whole plant, other than repeat applications
eventually exhausting the roots, or for tender young weed seedlings.
Vinegar's effect on the pH of the soil would be fleeting at best. So
it's pretty valid to say that if you have time to pour a cup of vinegar
on the plant, you have time to chop the plant off with a hoe to similar
effect.

http://hyg.ipm.illinois.edu/pastpest/200714f.html

Too late for you now, but letting weeds go to seed is NOT what you want
to do when "in hope of replacing it with a garden"

Actually, I let the lawn go to seed. The weeds stayed behind.
They were always there, just crowded out


- you want to mow the
heck out of it right up until you turn it under or bury it with good
soil.

Roots can push into some pretty inhospitable soils. Depending on your pH
range, you might select a suitable cover crop/green manure, till the
mess, and plant the cover crop, precisely for the beneficial effect of
the roots (as well as the eventual decomposing of the top mass, and the
shading out of weeds.) If your pH is less than 8.2 (you said it was
alkaline, so the lower range of 6.0-6.3 won't apply to you) alfalfa can
do wonders as part of a "green manure" program, and will shove roots
amazing distances downward.

Vast quantities of "brown manure" (up to and including sheet composting
6-12" deep) will also help (both to build soil and to buffer pH.)

You might find this a worthwhile read WRT alkaline soils:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/Gardennotes/222.html
Depending on your free lime situation or lack thereof, sulfur may not or
may help with your pH (depending, of course, on exactly what it is and
if it needs help - start with a soil test.)

Thank you. I have some reading to do!

T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird

On 04/17/2016 08:25 PM, songbird wrote:
T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird


Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.

I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.

Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.

On 4/19/2016 3:04 PM, T wrote:
On 04/17/2016 08:25 PM, songbird wrote:
T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird


Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.
We've had good luck in asking about getting the cow manure and shovel it
yourself into a trailer or pick-up. Worked for us for many years. There
is a compost called "Black Cow" available at Lowe's. Now that we
basically live on the outskirts of Houston, TX that's where we get our
manure. Works well.

I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.
The smaller you cut the weeds the faster they rot. I usually run over
them with the mower two or three times and it gets smaller each time

Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

T wrote:
....
Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.

may not be around easily found if all the cattle are
free range and no dairies. the home depot option is
fine for small amounts needed if you are doing small
patch amending.

worms/worm castings are good too and you can use
those weed scraps as part of the food.


I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.

you'll want some green stuff in there too, get it
in a few weeks before you put the plants in. if you
do a few layers deep alternating green stuff, brown
stuff and some dirt, topsoil and composted cow manure
you'll have a nice start. keep it damp (not needed to
be super soggy).


Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.

there is usually some remaining seeds in almost any soil
unless it has been sterilized in some manner. the seeds
of some plants will last quite a long time (especially in
the more arid climates). i heard that crab grass seed
can last 75yrs... i don't much care for lawns/grass and
everything being even and perfect. a mulching mower and
frequent trimming when the wet/growing season is on will
select for plants that can tolerate that sort of treatment.
good enough for me until i can get rid of the mower
entirely.

for very hard soils i'd just go up top with hay bales
and use them to frame a small area and plant the zukes
into a mix of topsoil and composted cow manure or the worm
castings. the hay bales will eventually break down and
turn into humus. they have more weed seeds than straw
bales, but i like having green stuff eventually rotting.
some people mulch with straw, we usually have wood
chips. when those rot they turn into prime humus. if
you can find anyone trimming trees and grinding them up
they are often happy to deliver a truckload if they
happen to be in your area, just ask.

because i want woody materials to last longer rather
than rot fast i don't want things shredded too finely.
some larger chunks are good, they help hold moisture.
as a top mulch i want fairly large chips or even have
used pieces of bark to cover in between plants (sometimes
with cardboard underneath them).

really, it doesn't matter what exact organic materials
you can find or grow, most of will break down into humus
eventually if you have moisture/rains and the soil critters
to help things out (and fungi too).


songbird