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Old 05-03-2021, 03:45 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F

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Old 05-03-2021, 04:23 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

On 3/4/2021 7:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.


I just pull them as soon as I see them, and never let them go to seed.

If you are starting from lawn, use a sod cutter to remove all the grass,
and you can end up with a fairly weed free bed.

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Old 05-03-2021, 04:39 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

On 3/4/2021 9:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F


The secret is MULCH . Cardboard or multiple layers of newspaper will
stop the weeds from reaching the sunlight . Heavy layers of straw will
do the same , plus will enrich and lighten your soil as it decomposes .
See if you can buy or borrow (your library may have it) a copy of the
Ruth Stout gardening book . Here's a link :
https://www.motherearthnews.com/orga...m-zmaz04fmzsel
You can also use a barrier fabric or plastic sheeting, but that
contributes nothing to your soil . You might also want to check out
non-chemical pest controls - bacillus thurigensis , diatomaceous earth
, and beneficial nematodes will all be a part of my arsenal this year .
FWIW , I use only heirloom varieties of seed and that makes
pest and weed control more work . But worth it IMO in the end for stuff
that breeds true and can be relied on to produce the same results year
after year . The only seeds I've bought this year was a package of
yellow squash , and only because my saved seed didn't germinate . It was
old ...
--
Snag
In 1775, the British demanded we give them our guns.
We shot them
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Old 05-03-2021, 01:21 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 22:39:04 -0600, Snag wrote:

On 3/4/2021 9:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F


The secret is MULCH . Cardboard or multiple layers of newspaper will
stop the weeds from reaching the sunlight . Heavy layers of straw will
do the same , plus will enrich and lighten your soil as it decomposes .
See if you can buy or borrow (your library may have it) a copy of the
Ruth Stout gardening book . Here's a link :
https://www.motherearthnews.com/orga...m-zmaz04fmzsel
You can also use a barrier fabric or plastic sheeting, but that
contributes nothing to your soil . You might also want to check out
non-chemical pest controls - bacillus thurigensis , diatomaceous earth
, and beneficial nematodes will all be a part of my arsenal this year .
FWIW , I use only heirloom varieties of seed and that makes
pest and weed control more work . But worth it IMO in the end for stuff
that breeds true and can be relied on to produce the same results year
after year . The only seeds I've bought this year was a package of
yellow squash , and only because my saved seed didn't germinate . It was
old ...



I first thought that the glue and ink and residual chemicals of
the paper-making paper-recycling process would render corrugated
cardboard " not suitably organic " but a google search seems
to prove me wrong ... ? Happy mulching !
John T.

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Old 05-03-2021, 07:39 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

On 3/5/2021 7:21 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 22:39:04 -0600, Snag wrote:

On 3/4/2021 9:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F


The secret is MULCH . Cardboard or multiple layers of newspaper will
stop the weeds from reaching the sunlight . Heavy layers of straw will
do the same , plus will enrich and lighten your soil as it decomposes .
See if you can buy or borrow (your library may have it) a copy of the
Ruth Stout gardening book . Here's a link :
https://www.motherearthnews.com/orga...m-zmaz04fmzsel
You can also use a barrier fabric or plastic sheeting, but that
contributes nothing to your soil . You might also want to check out
non-chemical pest controls - bacillus thurigensis , diatomaceous earth
, and beneficial nematodes will all be a part of my arsenal this year .
FWIW , I use only heirloom varieties of seed and that makes
pest and weed control more work . But worth it IMO in the end for stuff
that breeds true and can be relied on to produce the same results year
after year . The only seeds I've bought this year was a package of
yellow squash , and only because my saved seed didn't germinate . It was
old ...



I first thought that the glue and ink and residual chemicals of
the paper-making paper-recycling process would render corrugated
cardboard " not suitably organic " but a google search seems
to prove me wrong ... ? Happy mulching !
John T.


I use cages made of concrete reinforcing wire (about 24"diameter and
5 feet tall) for my tomatoes . I lay of pieces of cardboard on the
ground around the plants stem before I place the cages . Viola (yeah
yeah) no weeds inside the cage to pull . I generally use either wheat or
rice straw between cages .
--
Snag
In 1775, the British demanded we give them our guns.
We shot them


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Old 05-03-2021, 08:13 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:39:46 -0600, Snag wrote:

On 3/5/2021 7:21 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 22:39:04 -0600, Snag wrote:

On 3/4/2021 9:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F


The secret is MULCH . Cardboard or multiple layers of newspaper will
stop the weeds from reaching the sunlight . Heavy layers of straw will
do the same , plus will enrich and lighten your soil as it decomposes .
See if you can buy or borrow (your library may have it) a copy of the
Ruth Stout gardening book . Here's a link :
https://www.motherearthnews.com/orga...m-zmaz04fmzsel
You can also use a barrier fabric or plastic sheeting, but that
contributes nothing to your soil . You might also want to check out
non-chemical pest controls - bacillus thurigensis , diatomaceous earth
, and beneficial nematodes will all be a part of my arsenal this year .
FWIW , I use only heirloom varieties of seed and that makes
pest and weed control more work . But worth it IMO in the end for stuff
that breeds true and can be relied on to produce the same results year
after year . The only seeds I've bought this year was a package of
yellow squash , and only because my saved seed didn't germinate . It was
old ...



I first thought that the glue and ink and residual chemicals of
the paper-making paper-recycling process would render corrugated
cardboard " not suitably organic " but a google search seems
to prove me wrong ... ? Happy mulching !
John T.


I use cages made of concrete reinforcing wire (about 24"diameter and
5 feet tall) for my tomatoes . I lay of pieces of cardboard on the
ground around the plants stem before I place the cages . Viola (yeah
yeah) no weeds inside the cage to pull . I generally use either wheat or
rice straw between cages .



Watering ? ... doesn't the cardboard shed the water somewhat ?
John T.

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Old 05-03-2021, 10:16 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 149
Default No till organic

On 3/5/2021 2:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:39:46 -0600, Snag wrote:

On 3/5/2021 7:21 AM,
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 22:39:04 -0600, Snag wrote:

On 3/4/2021 9:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F


The secret is MULCH . Cardboard or multiple layers of newspaper will
stop the weeds from reaching the sunlight . Heavy layers of straw will
do the same , plus will enrich and lighten your soil as it decomposes .
See if you can buy or borrow (your library may have it) a copy of the
Ruth Stout gardening book . Here's a link :
https://www.motherearthnews.com/orga...m-zmaz04fmzsel
You can also use a barrier fabric or plastic sheeting, but that
contributes nothing to your soil . You might also want to check out
non-chemical pest controls - bacillus thurigensis , diatomaceous earth
, and beneficial nematodes will all be a part of my arsenal this year .
FWIW , I use only heirloom varieties of seed and that makes
pest and weed control more work . But worth it IMO in the end for stuff
that breeds true and can be relied on to produce the same results year
after year . The only seeds I've bought this year was a package of
yellow squash , and only because my saved seed didn't germinate . It was
old ...


I first thought that the glue and ink and residual chemicals of
the paper-making paper-recycling process would render corrugated
cardboard " not suitably organic " but a google search seems
to prove me wrong ... ? Happy mulching !
John T.


I use cages made of concrete reinforcing wire (about 24"diameter and
5 feet tall) for my tomatoes . I lay of pieces of cardboard on the
ground around the plants stem before I place the cages . Viola (yeah
yeah) no weeds inside the cage to pull . I generally use either wheat or
rice straw between cages .



Watering ? ... doesn't the cardboard shed the water somewhat ?
John T.


It does a little . But the straw around it doesn't , and both help a
lot to prevent moisture loss from evaporation . The soil is usually
moist unless we're in a drought .
--
Snag
In 1775, the British demanded we give them our guns.
We shot them
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Old 05-03-2021, 11:50 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 20:23:20 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 3/4/2021 7:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.


I just pull them as soon as I see them, and never let them go to seed.

If you are starting from lawn, use a sod cutter to remove all the grass,
and you can end up with a fairly weed free bed.


I _try_ to do that, but with ~1000 sq ft of garden it's easy to miss the
small ones. By now (30+ years) the selection pressure has led to the
smallest, fastest, most prolific weeds
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Old 06-03-2021, 12:18 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 22:39:04 -0600, Snag wrote:

On 3/4/2021 9:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F


The secret is MULCH . Cardboard or multiple layers of newspaper will
stop the weeds from reaching the sunlight . Heavy layers of straw will
do the same , plus will enrich and lighten your soil as it decomposes .
See if you can buy or borrow (your library may have it) a copy of the
Ruth Stout gardening book . Here's a link :
https://www.motherearthnews.com/orga...m-zmaz04fmzsel
You can also use a barrier fabric or plastic sheeting, but that
contributes nothing to your soil . You might also want to check out
non-chemical pest controls - bacillus thurigensis , diatomaceous earth
, and beneficial nematodes will all be a part of my arsenal this year .
FWIW , I use only heirloom varieties of seed and that makes
pest and weed control more work . But worth it IMO in the end for stuff
that breeds true and can be relied on to produce the same results year
after year . The only seeds I've bought this year was a package of
yellow squash , and only because my saved seed didn't germinate . It was
old ...


We have her book. It's great! Our copy was printed 1971 (paper is yellowing).
We mulch as we can, limited by [a] the slugs and snails that *love* the
mild damp environment mulch fosters (diatomaceous earth only being
partly useful in the Pacific NW due to rain); and [b] our limited supply of
mulch material.

It's especially a problem with overwintering crops, with lots of rain.
There's a difficult transition as the last of the real crops are removed,
and the overwintering seed is put in the ground. This fall/winter has
been even more challenging as we've had wild rabbits going after the vetch,
small-seed favas, and some other overwintering plants (they love the
fresh new greens!). This leaves the ground more exposed than usual.
The weeds I'm getting are small but so numerous!

Once the edibles are established in the spring - and especially after
the rains fade into the usual dry summer, weeds are not such a problem.

We save seed for corn, peas, edamame(soy), beans, scallions, one of our
tomato varieties, and intermittently some others. It all depends on
how long it takes to produce viable seed, and whether the varieties
exist that we like. For example - do you grow carrots? As a biennial
that's gotta take a lot of extra space, right? We've lately given up
on buying corn seed in part because we like the old style non-sugary
corn, and can't find the really early varieties we've enjoyed in the past.
Our short growing season limits our choices...

Thanks for the ideas!
-F



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Old 06-03-2021, 01:57 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.

Thanks for any tips!
-F


stirrup hoe, good control of the area around the garden. like
a deep enough edge to prevent weeds from intruding underneath
and a wide enough pathway around to keep a lot of things from
flopping over and dropping seeds in.

note that this doesn't prevent all weeds and it will take
several years to get rid of the seed bank in any newly
cultivated garden, but after several years it does get
easier once you understand how it goes.

we keep about an acre of gardens here with using the
stirrup hoes and no-till or low-till organic techniques.

but you have to use the hoe, it goes quick to just
skim the surface. closer work near the garden plants
may need to be done by hand or i use a large steak
knife with a wooden handle or a small mason trowel.
the sooner you get the weeds the easier it is.

as summer gets on the garden plants get bigger and
crowd out more weeds from sprouting as easily but again
you cannot let things go. just work on a schedule and
go through all gardens in rotation.

i keep things as simple as i can here, but we have
a lot of decorations and small gardens that are more
work too. so if you can plant a bigger area it is much
easier with fewer edges and obstacles. i also plant
the pathways once i'm done planting the bigger plots
if i have space for something. i'd rather grow some-
thing in a space than leave it bare.

green manure and cover crop as much as you can.
peas and beans are yum.


songbird
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Old 06-03-2021, 02:01 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Bob F wrote:
On 3/4/2021 7:45 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
What's the magic trick to dealing with weeds if you want to garden
'organically' _and_ are trying to go 'no-till' ? That is, without
spending all your time manually pulling them? And with limited
space I can't solarize without losing a year.


I just pull them as soon as I see them, and never let them go to seed.

If you are starting from lawn, use a sod cutter to remove all the grass,
and you can end up with a fairly weed free bed.


except that sod has a huge nutritional value,
what i do is dig a deep enough hole and bury it
so the worms eat it up. a layer of cardboard
or newspapers over the sod will help keep a lot
of the roots from coming back up. just do it
again if a second or third time is needed. i've
had some gardens where i've skimmed and buried
them a few times just because i had injuries and
could not keep all the gardens clear. so they
were allowed to go to weeds and then got cleared
again. the worms love it all when you can bury
it. don't waste it.

if you get a seedy plant that has dropped a lot
of seeds on the surface, again, dig a hole and
then scrape all the surface area in the hole and
bury it again. if you put it down deep enough
and don't disturb that area again for years then
the worms may take care of those weed seeds or
not, but if you keep after it with the stirrup
hoe they won't be a major issue again.


songbird
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Old 06-03-2021, 02:02 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

Frank Miles wrote:
....
I _try_ to do that, but with ~1000 sq ft of garden it's easy to miss the
small ones. By now (30+ years) the selection pressure has led to the
smallest, fastest, most prolific weeds


cover crops with more rotational planting might help
with that.


songbird
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Old 06-03-2021, 02:03 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default No till organic

Frank Miles wrote:
....
I _try_ to do that, but with ~1000 sq ft of garden it's easy to miss the
small ones. By now (30+ years) the selection pressure has led to the
smallest, fastest, most prolific weeds


oh and the other thing about smaller weeds, they might
be ok to just leave alone since they don't grow tall
enough to outcompete the garden plants. some things do
ok interplanted like that. not sure what specific weeds
you might be up against though.


songbird
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