Help!!

Need some guidance from those who are successfully managing a fresh planted
tank.

Problem: No plant growth, algae covered.

What I have: 75g 48"L x 20"H x 18 D. Flourite/gravel mixture substrate, (2)
metal halide 175w 6500k/(2) 40 w flourecent plant bulbs.

I know the first answer is get a co2 setup, but I had better luck with (3)
40w flourecent bulbs over the metal halides. Should I use a different
spectrum of light such as 10k? Surely with 350w + 80w light would be
sufficient. (doesn't look very bright, yellow tint, 6500k bulbs) The bulbs
are about 8-10 in above the surface of the water. I have no problems with
the fish stock . Can get ph, O2,CO2 readings, if needed, but I think I've
got a bigger problem. I tried adding pottasium, iron and liquid CO2 on a
regular basis, but it doesn't do anything. Any assistance would be
appreciated.

I think you answered your own question. If you upgraded from 120 watts to
255 watts without adding CO2, that's probably as far as you need to look.
Adding additional nutrients without giving your plants a reliable carbon
source is only making your problem worse. If you absolutely cannot add CO2
right away, then I'd start by reducing hours of lighting, probably to ten
hours or so to start. Also, crank back your thermostat to the lowest
possible temperature your fish will tolerate.

DIY CO2 is cheap and you can have it in your tank within an hour, probably
with stuff you've already got lying around the house. Even if you intend to
put a pressurized system in later, I'd get something/anything in there right
away before your plants are ruined. I use two soda bottles on my 75 gallon
(but only 190 watts) with good results.

Anything between 5000k and 7000k is an excellent temp for plant growth
(although you've already noticed that it yellows-out your fish).

Please post your chemistry stats - including ammoniumnitritenitrate - and
let some of the more knowledgeable pros respond to that. Also, temperature,
hours of lighting, algae eaters, etc.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

kgrosnik wrote in message
news:1038841460.311822@sj-nntpcache-3...
Help!!

Need some guidance from those who are successfully managing a fresh
planted
tank.

Problem: No plant growth, algae covered.

What I have: 75g 48"L x 20"H x 18 D. Flourite/gravel mixture substrate,
(2)
metal halide 175w 6500k/(2) 40 w flourecent plant bulbs.

I know the first answer is get a co2 setup, but I had better luck with (3)
40w flourecent bulbs over the metal halides. Should I use a different
spectrum of light such as 10k? Surely with 350w + 80w light would be
sufficient. (doesn't look very bright, yellow tint, 6500k bulbs) The
bulbs
are about 8-10 in above the surface of the water. I have no problems with
the fish stock . Can get ph, O2,CO2 readings, if needed, but I think I've
got a bigger problem. I tried adding pottasium, iron and liquid CO2 on a
regular basis, but it doesn't do anything. Any assistance would be
appreciated.

"kgrosnik" wrote in message
news:1038841460.311822@sj-nntpcache-3...

Problem: No plant growth, algae covered.

What I have: 75g 48"L x 20"H x 18 D. Flourite/gravel mixture substrate, (2)
metal halide 175w 6500k/(2) 40 w flourecent plant bulbs.

Hmmm... That's 430W for 75g tank, that is, 5.73W/g. That's too much light,
according to most people's recommendations. 2.5W/g is considered high
lighting, and I'm not aware of anyone ever exceeding 4W/g.

So, with that much light and no CO2 injection, it's not a surprise that the
algae are going out of control. The color temperature of your metal halides
is a touch on the high side too. I prefer 5500K to 6000K at most. Any
higher than that tends to encourage algae.

I know the first answer is get a co2 setup, but I had better luck with (3)
40w flourecent bulbs over the metal halides. Should I use a different
spectrum of light such as 10k?

No, that will only make it worse. The bluer the spectrum of your lights,
the more you encourage algae.

Surely with 350w + 80w light would be
sufficient. (doesn't look very bright, yellow tint, 6500k bulbs) The bulbs
are about 8-10 in above the surface of the water. I have no problems with
the fish stock . Can get ph, O2,CO2 readings, if needed, but I think I've
got a bigger problem. I tried adding pottasium, iron and liquid CO2 on a
regular basis, but it doesn't do anything. Any assistance would be
appreciated.

Reduce the lighting period to 10 hours. (Any less than 10 hours and your
plants will probably start to wither away after a few weeks.) Add CO2
until you get to 30ppm. But, even with that, I don't like your chances.
430W is simply too much light, I suspect.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
Triodia Technologies http://www.triodia.com/staff/michi

I exceed the 4 wpg rule...

300 watts MH over 66 gallon

http://aquarium.planetaclix.pt/aquarium2.jpg

but I guess that 5.73 watts is a little too much...


"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...
"kgrosnik" wrote in message
news:1038841460.311822@sj-nntpcache-3...

Problem: No plant growth, algae covered.

What I have: 75g 48"L x 20"H x 18 D. Flourite/gravel mixture substrate,
(2)
metal halide 175w 6500k/(2) 40 w flourecent plant bulbs.

Hmmm... That's 430W for 75g tank, that is, 5.73W/g. That's too much light,
according to most people's recommendations. 2.5W/g is considered high
lighting, and I'm not aware of anyone ever exceeding 4W/g.

So, with that much light and no CO2 injection, it's not a surprise that
the
algae are going out of control. The color temperature of your metal
halides
is a touch on the high side too. I prefer 5500K to 6000K at most. Any
higher than that tends to encourage algae.

I know the first answer is get a co2 setup, but I had better luck with
(3)
40w flourecent bulbs over the metal halides. Should I use a different
spectrum of light such as 10k?

No, that will only make it worse. The bluer the spectrum of your lights,
the more you encourage algae.

Surely with 350w + 80w light would be
sufficient. (doesn't look very bright, yellow tint, 6500k bulbs) The
bulbs
are about 8-10 in above the surface of the water. I have no problems
with
the fish stock . Can get ph, O2,CO2 readings, if needed, but I think
I've
got a bigger problem. I tried adding pottasium, iron and liquid CO2 on
a
regular basis, but it doesn't do anything. Any assistance would be
appreciated.

Reduce the lighting period to 10 hours. (Any less than 10 hours and your
plants will probably start to wither away after a few weeks.) Add CO2
until you get to 30ppm. But, even with that, I don't like your chances.
430W is simply too much light, I suspect.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
Triodia Technologies http://www.triodia.com/staff/michi

On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:58:11 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

No, that will only make it worse. The bluer the spectrum of your lights,
the more you encourage algae.

Hmmmm... ?!?

Can you provide a reference?

TIA

Ed

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
I exceed the 4 wpg rule...

300 watts MH over 66 gallon

I've heard of people going up to 7 or 8 wpg. But not without CO2
injection!

And I definitely would not recommend a newbie try it. Those super-bright
tanks
are for experts only.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

yes I agree...

without CO2 injection at those light levels is a BIG invitation to algaes...
even if it was only 3 wpg...

"Ed" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:58:11 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

No, that will only make it worse. The bluer the spectrum of your lights,
the more you encourage algae.

Hmmmm... ?!?

Can you provide a reference?

Only anecdotal, I'm afraid. I've been talking to many people over the years
about lighting. An often quoted opinion is that "anything above 6000 K will
encourage algae." I remember speaking to one of the Giesemann
(www.giesemann.de)
developers about two years ago, who told me the same thing.

Kasselmann ("Aquarium Plants", Krieger Publishing) recommends warm tone lamps
in the range 2700-4000K. Personally, I think that's too red/yellow, but I guess
it's
a matter of taste. Currently, I'm using two 150W MH lamps at 5700K, plus to 36W
Osram Lumilux Plus 860 (6000K) on a 150g tank. The results in a somewhat
yellowish color rendition, and tends to keep algae down. (But I had to reduce
the
lighting period to 10 hours per day -- any more than that, and green hair algae
were a problem.)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
Triodia Technologies http://www.triodia.com/staff/michi

I don't think it's so much that the algae does better at higher spectrums as
that the higher plants don't do as well as they might at a lower spectrum.

I've sometimes mixed 5300k bulbs with 10,000k bulbs but, frankly, over the
years, I've gotten used to and kind of like the more yellow light at lower
spectrums.

kush

LeighMo wrote in message
...
Only anecdotal, I'm afraid. I've been talking to many people over the
years
about lighting. An often quoted opinion is that "anything above 6000 K
will
encourage algae."

I've heard that "blue light causes algae" thing, too. That's the main
knock
against actinics.

But it hasn't been a problem for me. I've tried different color bulbs,
and
find I like 10,000K daylight best (so far). Just because I like the
"white"
look of the light. I haven't noticed any difference in algae. However, I
have
noticed that plants seem to grow taller with the 8800K than with the
10000K. I
suppose that makes sense. The 10,000K are meant to simulate light at the
water's surface, while the 8800K are meant to simulate light a few feet
below
the surface. The 8800K makes the plant "think" it's deeper.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Thanks guys!!!

I hadn't heard this but my experience's are that same as LeighMo's
that's why I asked.

When I replaced my 18 watt bulb last week the only temp they had was
10000K. I've used 10000K before and didn't have any problems with
them. At that time I was using them out of choice and found I didn't
like the color. Now - it seems - I have no choice but to use the
10000K until I can find a new source of 6500K 18 watt bulbs.

But I must say that my Blue Betta looks pretty spectacular under all
that blue light!

Thanks again,

Ed

I think the temperature of the colour at the surface of the water will only
reach 6500K, but only at 12:00 o'clock and in the equator.

I think at 10 am it will be something like 4000 Kelvin.

if we have 6000 kelvin at the surface of the water, bellow, it will get
higher kelvin, the more "blue" the spectrum of the light the more easy is to
penetrate the water.

that is why coral tanks must have higher colour temperaures. corals usually
are found at more than 5 meters depth.

"The 8800K makes the plant "think" it's deeper."
wrong, it might be because of some other variable, or because the lamp have
more usuable spectrum.

I still think the best way to judge a lamp is CRI figures, my 2 MH is only
4200 kelvin, and it looks more WHITE that some lamps at 6500 kelvin, with
lower CRI .

if we have a 6500 kelvin, but only with spikes in the green and in the blue,
and a little in the red (I am talking about spectrum), it would produce
artificial colours, it wold provide also a bad ambient for plants, and there
might be some algae that like those spikes...


most of our aquatic plants are usually anfibians, or very near surface
plants, so they get (in the equator) something like 4000 Kelvin average
temperature. that is a fact!

do you think that the light of thhe sun at 10 red?
no... because it have a 100 CRI factor



"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
Only anecdotal, I'm afraid. I've been talking to many people over the
years
about lighting. An often quoted opinion is that "anything above 6000 K
will
encourage algae."

I've heard that "blue light causes algae" thing, too. That's the main
knock
against actinics.

But it hasn't been a problem for me. I've tried different color bulbs,
and
find I like 10,000K daylight best (so far). Just because I like the
"white"
look of the light. I haven't noticed any difference in algae. However, I
have
noticed that plants seem to grow taller with the 8800K than with the
10000K. I
suppose that makes sense. The 10,000K are meant to simulate light at the
water's surface, while the 8800K are meant to simulate light a few feet
below
the surface. The 8800K makes the plant "think" it's deeper.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

do you think that the light of thhe sun at 10 red?
no... because it have a 100 CRI factor

forgive my english... sorry...

Do you think that the light put out by the sun at 10 o'clock in the morning
is red ?
(4000 kelvin at the equator, if we are not in the equator, it will get even
lower tempearatures)

why it's not red?
Because the sun has a 100 CRI factor


António Vitor
Lisbon-Portugal

see this:
http://www.photo.net/photo/edscott/h2o.jpg

more water depth more blue (higher temperatures) .

taken from he

http://www.photo.net/photo/edscott/cf000030.htm


"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
Only anecdotal, I'm afraid. I've been talking to many people over the
years
about lighting. An often quoted opinion is that "anything above 6000 K
will
encourage algae."

I've heard that "blue light causes algae" thing, too. That's the main
knock
against actinics.

But it hasn't been a problem for me. I've tried different color bulbs,
and
find I like 10,000K daylight best (so far). Just because I like the
"white"
look of the light. I haven't noticed any difference in algae. However, I
have
noticed that plants seem to grow taller with the 8800K than with the
10000K. I
suppose that makes sense. The 10,000K are meant to simulate light at the
water's surface, while the 8800K are meant to simulate light a few feet
below
the surface. The 8800K makes the plant "think" it's deeper.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/