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#46
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Hobby Ethics
Government mistakes are just people mistakes. I have made quite a few
in my life time. I do seem to remember many years ago an alligator problem in the sewers of NYC I believe brought on my dumping pet alligators down the toilet. On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:43:09 +0800, "Jim Morcombe" wrote: I'm from Perth Australia, We have a very fragile Freshwater system here. There are only seven species of freshwater fish native to the Perth waterways. First Carp were introduced into the lakes so people would have something to catch. This upset the eco system and caused plagues of mesqitos. So they (the government) introduced Gambusia (Mesquito fish) only to find they prefer fish eggs to mesquito larvae. I don't believe there is even a record of what we had in most of our lakes. Then they introduced Trout and other fish into the rivers. Now we have very tight controls over what fish we can import - but its a bit late. On my last trip to the Moore River I caught about 50 of the introduced mesquito fish and two tadpoles. All of these fish were introduced by government experts or approved by gov't experts. I think we folks in the Hobby do occassionally make mistakes - however our mistakes are usually small and easily corrected. It really takes gov'ts or gov't backing to truly destroy an environment. However, I fully import the restrictions in place because I see the effects every day. I have heard lots of people complain that the Fisheries deprtment is useless when it comes to processing requests for exemptions, but I have never been knocked back and hence haven't found the rules restrictive at all. Jim Jim Joseph wrote in message .. . I live in a state where many fresh water plants are illegal, e.g. Anacharis and milfoil. There are also several species of aquatic animals that are illegal, e.g. ghost shrimp, fresh water snails, and killifish (a HUGE fine if your caught with killies). I've been wrestling with the ethics of buying an illegal animal on line (ghost shrimp), and wonder what other people think about this in regards to both plants and animals. Any thoughts? |
#47
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Hobby Ethics
Simple, while you are concerned about your "rights" the government has
to consider the welfare of the all the people. You may detest drunk driving laws, but those injured or killed or whose property gets damaged would ask you to consider their "rights" to security for property and life. You are not the center of the world! On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:18 GMT, LtWolfe wrote: I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of residence. Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right? Because of what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of others? Does that seem right? Besides, there are very few exotics doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL. A lot of exotics are from fish farm releases (I'm sure YOU don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like that). LtWolfe "Toni" wrote in hlink.net: "LtWolfe" wrote in message . .. No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's private business, unless it DIRECTLY harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT THE OPRESSION! I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all introduced by folks who thought they knew better. |
#48
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Hobby Ethics
Government mistakes are just people mistakes. I have made quite a few
in my life time. I do seem to remember many years ago an alligator problem in the sewers of NYC I believe brought on my dumping pet alligators down the toilet. On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:43:09 +0800, "Jim Morcombe" wrote: I'm from Perth Australia, We have a very fragile Freshwater system here. There are only seven species of freshwater fish native to the Perth waterways. First Carp were introduced into the lakes so people would have something to catch. This upset the eco system and caused plagues of mesqitos. So they (the government) introduced Gambusia (Mesquito fish) only to find they prefer fish eggs to mesquito larvae. I don't believe there is even a record of what we had in most of our lakes. Then they introduced Trout and other fish into the rivers. Now we have very tight controls over what fish we can import - but its a bit late. On my last trip to the Moore River I caught about 50 of the introduced mesquito fish and two tadpoles. All of these fish were introduced by government experts or approved by gov't experts. I think we folks in the Hobby do occassionally make mistakes - however our mistakes are usually small and easily corrected. It really takes gov'ts or gov't backing to truly destroy an environment. However, I fully import the restrictions in place because I see the effects every day. I have heard lots of people complain that the Fisheries deprtment is useless when it comes to processing requests for exemptions, but I have never been knocked back and hence haven't found the rules restrictive at all. Jim Jim Joseph wrote in message .. . I live in a state where many fresh water plants are illegal, e.g. Anacharis and milfoil. There are also several species of aquatic animals that are illegal, e.g. ghost shrimp, fresh water snails, and killifish (a HUGE fine if your caught with killies). I've been wrestling with the ethics of buying an illegal animal on line (ghost shrimp), and wonder what other people think about this in regards to both plants and animals. Any thoughts? |
#49
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Hobby Ethics
We are not discussing "hands off," rather the introduction of alien
fish to a native habitat or at least the potential. I can appreciate the complaint of too much government intervention, but the other side is chaos. We do have to drive on the proper side of the divider. We do not complain of this law. The value is obvious. The question of personal choice of pets is another mater. A older woman visiting a woman that kept a lion as a pet, was mauled to death within the last month. Then there are those pet owners that ador the Pit Bulls. I have my own "pet" peaves, but do understand those that represent us must balance the "rights of the individual" against the good of all. I also accept that those trying to protect us make their own mistakes. Democracy may not be the best form of government, but it is the best form we know as of now. On 7 Jan 2004 08:49:21 -0800, ) wrote: I believe in a hands off approach. Leave nature alone long enough and things work out. Conserve what you have now feircely and try to protect it. Humans always try to control nature and this often back fires. Some restoratiion and creation work in conservation is worthy, some is not. Adding mosquito fish is a bad idea IMO. Few fish bioloigist would argue otherwise. Regards, Tom Barr |
#50
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Hobby Ethics
Dick wrote:
Government mistakes are just people mistakes. I have made quite a few in my life time. I do seem to remember many years ago an alligator problem in the sewers of NYC I believe brought on my dumping pet alligators down the toilet. Urban myth. -- ~misfit~ |
#51
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Hobby Ethics
~misfit~ wrote in message ... Dick wrote: Government mistakes are just people mistakes. I have made quite a few in my life time. I do seem to remember many years ago an alligator problem in the sewers of NYC I believe brought on my dumping pet alligators down the toilet. Urban myth. WHAT!?!? NO 80-FOOT ALBINO ALLIGATORS!?!? |
#52
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Hobby Ethics
~misfit~ wrote in message ... Dick wrote: Government mistakes are just people mistakes. I have made quite a few in my life time. I do seem to remember many years ago an alligator problem in the sewers of NYC I believe brought on my dumping pet alligators down the toilet. Urban myth. WHAT!?!? NO 80-FOOT ALBINO ALLIGATORS!?!? |
#53
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Hobby Ethics
~misfit~ wrote in message ... Dick wrote: Government mistakes are just people mistakes. I have made quite a few in my life time. I do seem to remember many years ago an alligator problem in the sewers of NYC I believe brought on my dumping pet alligators down the toilet. Urban myth. WHAT!?!? NO 80-FOOT ALBINO ALLIGATORS!?!? |
#54
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Hobby Ethics
No, but there are massive Oscars (nearly as deadly) living in
the inland canals of Florida. But apparently thems good eatin' http://www.floridafisheries.com/fish...ive.html#oscar WHAT!?!? NO 80-FOOT ALBINO ALLIGATORS!?!? |
#55
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Hobby Ethics
No, but there are massive Oscars (nearly as deadly) living in
the inland canals of Florida. But apparently thems good eatin' http://www.floridafisheries.com/fish...ive.html#oscar WHAT!?!? NO 80-FOOT ALBINO ALLIGATORS!?!? |
#56
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Hobby Ethics
I think the issues of Lions and Pit Bulls are not really related to the
issues of pet fish. We are talking about personal and immediate danger in one case and environmental hazard in the other. Besides, people who own Pit Bulls are all thugs. Jim Dick wrote in message ... We are not discussing "hands off," rather the introduction of alien fish to a native habitat or at least the potential. I can appreciate the complaint of too much government intervention, but the other side is chaos. We do have to drive on the proper side of the divider. We do not complain of this law. The value is obvious. The question of personal choice of pets is another mater. A older woman visiting a woman that kept a lion as a pet, was mauled to death within the last month. Then there are those pet owners that ador the Pit Bulls. I have my own "pet" peaves, but do understand those that represent us must balance the "rights of the individual" against the good of all. I also accept that those trying to protect us make their own mistakes. Democracy may not be the best form of government, but it is the best form we know as of now. On 7 Jan 2004 08:49:21 -0800, ) wrote: I believe in a hands off approach. Leave nature alone long enough and things work out. Conserve what you have now feircely and try to protect it. Humans always try to control nature and this often back fires. Some restoratiion and creation work in conservation is worthy, some is not. Adding mosquito fish is a bad idea IMO. Few fish bioloigist would argue otherwise. Regards, Tom Barr |
#57
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Hobby Ethics
Dick wrote in message . ..
We are not discussing "hands off," rather the introduction of alien fish to a native habitat or at least the potential. This was posted to a plant list and I'll take the plant perspective as I've done a substantial amount of weed science. Plant folks don't go out and plant weeds to "save" them or moralize over it the same way fish hobbyist do. Some growers have planted weeds here in Florida for the Aquarium trade and then come back and harvest and send them all over the USA. Hydrillia is a prime example from the 1950's. Kuzu for erosional damage from strip mining in KY/TN region. There are many examples. I can appreciate the complaint of too much government intervention, but the other side is chaos. I did not suggest that. I'm some kind of anarchist? I'm talking about people/development leaving the environment alone, this includes introducing weeds to the natural ecosystems. Removal of what's there as far as weeds is a good idea generally but ideas can and do back fire. Hands off also cost less in the long and short run. Ichetucknee springs was full of trash, burnt tires, cows wandering through the place 30 years ago. They removed the trash, presearved it as a state park and it is now one of the so called "prisitine" spring examples here. The ecosystem restored itself after a few years and a little work. It really is a surprising success story. But now spetic tanks and other sources of nitrogen are increasing greatly and causing algae blooms, this is not from nature but from development. 15N isotope signatures have shown this. Even years later we have a tough time keepin gout of the environment, global changes will be more difficult to remediate. We do have to drive on the proper side of the divider. We do not complain of this law. The value is obvious. The question of personal choice of pets is another mater. A older woman visiting a woman that kept a lion as a pet, was mauled to death within the last month. Then there are those pet owners that ador the Pit Bulls. There are no bad dogs (or Lions), __only__ bad dog owners. You are accountable. Your dog causes a problem, you go down for it. Pit bulls are often trained to be mean/tough, but they are _not_ wild animals like a Croc, lion etc something you would not take to the park with kids around unless your the Croc hunter and know about safe handling procedures. Many folks got upset at him(the Croc hunter, Steve) for the baby issue but I don't think the baby was all that at risk. It was not _needed_, but the baby was in the most capable hands I know of, atrained professional that knows everything Croc, we take our kids all over unneeded every day in cars and the risk are greater there than in his hands and croc I would argue. And we are not "professional" drivers generally. But the larger issue in policy making is one of __risk__, like driving, insurance, war, you have to ask the question what are the risk? For aquarium owners for aquatic plants: low risk generally. But there are few folks keeping plants generally but the lobby for pond owners is rather high and the potential for some of these plants to escape is higher. Fish owners are much more likely to release non natives. Same goes for plant and fish farmers, they are notorius for intro of plants and fish all over the world, like Lake Victoria and Lates, or Tilipia here in Florida, mosquito fish over most of the USA, Hydrilia in Florida for the plant trade. We found a 3ft pacu in a lake in CA after draining it. It'd been there for awhile. I swim with pleco's in Florida, come on down, I'll show you them munching away. Sports, food fishies did not introduce this fish. Hobby only. Caulerpa gets a lot press in the west coast, but ballast ship water is a much large seaweed problem, but they have lots of $ so we don't talk much about that in the public, but folks own reef tanks SW tanks so it gets into the news more. The laws here are generally set up to minimize the risk, I was not saying anything about anarchy, nor had a position either way except it worked well for the environment for 4 billion years vs the humans way of rapid mass extinction, those are good laws, but the right or not to have some pets needs to be weighed with the risk. Lions on a lease at the park with kids around is asking for it. A dog trained to fight is asking for it. Keeping Crypt cordata pink vein is not any threat in the USA. Keeping Altums is no threat to folks/ecosystem in WI. But some diseases could be transferred even in that case to the native fish, but..........there's little risk of that ocurring. There is risk associated with everything, but laws will not prevent all risk, you cannot legislate stupidity and blind laws done for reactionary purposes without good consideration is as bad as no law, perhaps worse. I doubt you'll please some folks about animal right but this is not logical, they eat and kill baby plants, why is the same ethic not placed on that form of life vs critters? How dare they own, murder and enslave plants! Lopping off their limbs, how in human is that? Seriously though, we all have to kill something and eat it, it might grow and be a plant or it might be some mad cow infested Pork, Chicken or Beef. I'm mainly a plant eater, but I don't consider it environmentally or morally better. I have my own "pet" peaves, but do understand those that represent us must balance the "rights of the individual" against the good of all. I also accept that those trying to protect us make their own mistakes. Well, up to a point. Some make large mistakes and should be held especially accountable. Like daipers, all politicians should be changed frequently for the same reason. But hopefully the balance will be fair and reasoable. If not, they will not get my vote. Regards, Tom Barr I believe in a hands off approach. Leave nature alone long enough and things work out. Conserve what you have now feircely and try to protect it. Humans always try to control nature and this often back fires. Some restoratiion and creation work in conservation is worthy, some is not. Adding mosquito fish is a bad idea IMO. Few fish bioloigist would argue otherwise. Regards, Tom Barr |
#58
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Hobby Ethics
ok I have to sound off now. I love my fish and my aquatic plants. first of
yes hobbists contribute a small problem to the introduction of new species but very minor.most intruduction does come from goverment experts (that's an oxymoron). I also keep some exotic fish and plants but I do love my fish enuf that if I get tired of 'em and my plants I will dig a hole in the ground and put them in and that be that. most of the problem around the coasts are from international shipping boats and barges. I detest laws that require me to get special liceneses or take special classes but I'de rather have to do that then to be told that because of some idiots I am irresponsible to keep what I want. But take afence or to no afence to this...humans are medlers the common corn you eat used to be a wild plant but now has come to be completly dependent on humans for propagation. sometimes we screw up big time and when we do we just need to give a slight hand of help to mother nature as she will make everything work out for the best. Our inviroment is in a constant flux and we are but just tool in the grand scheme of things. but untill our need for money is nullified we may continue to do more damage then good. I'm a strong beliver in good laws and in control but not banning something.there are no bad animals or fish or plants....just bad and stupid humans that would rather throwit away rather then dispose of properly.that unfortunatly I chalk up to our disposable society. we never truly think what happens to items we just discard. "Dick" wrote in message ... Simple, while you are concerned about your "rights" the government has to consider the welfare of the all the people. You may detest drunk driving laws, but those injured or killed or whose property gets damaged would ask you to consider their "rights" to security for property and life. You are not the center of the world! On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:18 GMT, LtWolfe wrote: I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of residence. Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right? Because of what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of others? Does that seem right? Besides, there are very few exotics doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL. A lot of exotics are from fish farm releases (I'm sure YOU don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like that). LtWolfe "Toni" wrote in hlink.net: "LtWolfe" wrote in message . .. No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's private business, unless it DIRECTLY harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT THE OPRESSION! I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all introduced by folks who thought they knew better. |
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