In article ,
Elaine T wrote:
Richard wrote:
In article , js1 wrote:

On 2005-01-18, Richard wrote:

Stop dosing phosphorus. Your fish food should provide enough of it.

ALL fishfood?


Absolutely! ;-)


Ok, well roughly how much phosphate is there in white worms fed pumpernikel
fed to fish 3X a week and nothing else? (my water is pretty cold)


It's not what's in the food...it's what comes out the other end of your
fish. ;-)


It's gotta be in the food, fish can't synthesize phosphate.


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Richard wrote:
In article ,
Elaine T wrote:

Richard wrote:

In article , js1 wrote:


On 2005-01-18, Richard wrote:


Stop dosing phosphorus. Your fish food should provide enough of it.

ALL fishfood?


Absolutely! ;-)


Ok, well roughly how much phosphate is there in white worms fed pumpernikel
fed to fish 3X a week and nothing else? (my water is pretty cold)



It's not what's in the food...it's what comes out the other end of your
fish. ;-)


It's gotta be in the food, fish can't synthesize phosphate.


Heh. No living organism can transmute elements - you're taking me far
too seriously. Wheee...alchemy in the fishtank! My point was that the
phosphate in fish food is used by the fish and then excreted. Of
course, the intial source of phosphate into the tank is the food.

Steve,
ALL fishfood has phosphorus and nitrogen, whether it's plant or animal
based. Phosphorus is an essential component of DNA, RNA, cell
membranes, and the cell's energy systems, and nitrogen comes from
protein. If you're worried, first follow Richard's advice and stop all
phosphate. Personally, with nitrates between 5 and 20, I'd stop dosing
that as well because you're also adding nitrate to the tank with your
fishfood.

See how your plants do for a few weeks after Richard's water change
regime with no added N or P. If your nitrate actually zeros out, you
might add some back. Wait a few weeks more and if you still feel an
irresistable urge to add P, add a fraction of what you were and be
prepared to change lots of water at the first signs of increased algae
growth.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Elaine T wrote:
Steve,
ALL fishfood has phosphorus and nitrogen, whether it's plant or
animal
based. Phosphorus is an essential component of DNA, RNA, cell
membranes, and the cell's energy systems, and nitrogen comes from
protein. If you're worried, first follow Richard's advice and stop
all
phosphate. Personally, with nitrates between 5 and 20, I'd stop
dosing
that as well because you're also adding nitrate to the tank with your

fishfood.

See how your plants do for a few weeks after Richard's water change
regime with no added N or P. If your nitrate actually zeros out,
you
might add some back. Wait a few weeks more and if you still feel an
irresistable urge to add P, add a fraction of what you were and be
prepared to change lots of water at the first signs of increased
algae
growth.


k.

(thanks for taking time to reply)

After the blackout and massive water changes, I'll let the thing
stabilize a bit and see where the nitrates stand. Maybe I got a little
too agressive with my dosing, thinking I as some kind 'o plant king.


steve

Heh. No living organism can transmute elements - you're taking me far
too seriously. Wheee...alchemy in the fishtank! My point was that the
phosphate in fish food is used by the fish and then excreted. Of
course, the intial source of phosphate into the tank is the food.

Right, and I only feed live whitw worms fed with pumpernikel 3X a week.
Does this mean I'm adding no, low or high phospahtes? Honest question,
I have no idea.

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Richard Sexton wrote:
Heh. No living organism can transmute elements - you're taking me far
too seriously. Wheee...alchemy in the fishtank! My point was that the
phosphate in fish food is used by the fish and then excreted. Of
course, the intial source of phosphate into the tank is the food.


Right, and I only feed live whitw worms fed with pumpernikel 3X a week.
Does this mean I'm adding no, low or high phospahtes? Honest question,
I have no idea.

Sorry...I thought that was Steve's question. First, you DO have to take
the fish's metabolism into account. If the fish are actively growing,
they may absorb more phosphorus from their food. So the assumption that
what goes into the tank is exactly what passes through a growing fish
and fertilizes the tank is not perfect.

Hmm...My bottle of TetraMin says minimum phosphorus is 1.3% and my
ColorBits are minimum 1.5%. All Hagen NutraFin foods are formulated to
have only a minimum of 0.6% and a maximum of 0.9%. They talk about
their phosphorus philosophy here.
http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/nut...ax/lowphos.cfm

As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!

Is that the kind of info that you were after?

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!

The funny thing is the Ammano shrimp eat more white worms than the
killies do.

Yahbut, tubifex eat sewage and presumably there's tons of phosphates
in there. Wouldnt this all really depends on the amount of phosphate in
pumpernikle bread I feed the worms?

--
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
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Richard Sexton wrote:
As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!


The funny thing is the Ammano shrimp eat more white worms than the
killies do.

Yahbut, tubifex eat sewage and presumably there's tons of phosphates
in there. Wouldnt this all really depends on the amount of phosphate in
pumpernikle bread I feed the worms?

Not so much. The worms have to build DNA, RNA, cell membranes, and all
the other chemicals that contain phosphate from the bread. They will
retain the phosphate and other valuable minerals from their diet and
excrete the excess nitrogen and fiber. If you were phosphate starving
your worm cultures, they would not grow and reproduce well.

There may be some bread (relatively low in phosphate) in the worm's
digestive tract when you feed but the worm itself is the phosphate source.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__