"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Doug Kanter wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


I don't know what you spray with, but as the web sites indicate, some
products are systemic, so you can wash your apples all day long and
you
won't get rid of those chemicals. And, sun, wind & rain won't do a
thing,
either.

You are definitely wrong about the sun, wind, & rain. It's a
question
of
quantity,
and I specifically said that the residue remaining would not be
significant. We
ingest much more junk into our bodies by just breathing our poluted
air. If
you
wanted to be safe, you would become another 'bubble boy', who was
locked
into a completely controlled environment because of his poor immune
system.
If you define organic to something that grows naturally, you may
want
to
think
about Wolfsbane, Death Angel Mushrooms, Marijuana, Hemlock,
Foxglove,
Mandrake, Poison Sumac, etc. I am not suggesting these are used on
apples,
but I am just using that as an illustration for comparison.

I'm definitely wrong about sun, wind and rain?? Before we continue, let's
agree on some definitions. Do you know what "systemic" means? Do not post
links to dictionaries or any other source. Tell me in your own words what
a
systemic pesticide is.

Since you were the first one to use the term, why don't you tell me what
you meant it to be?

You're pretty slippery. A systemic is a substance which is absorbed into the
plant's tissue. It is not removed by wind, rain, sun, or washing the fruit.
It may break down in some way, but since you know nothing about the
chemicals you're discussing, you can't make that claim without further
research. You're exactly the kind of customer the chemical companies hope
for.

The foodnews.org site provides a list of chemicals commonly found in certain
fruits and vegetables. Some are systemic. Their list is a good starting
point for your learning process.


I don't grow fruit trees, but I seem to recall reading about the idea
of
using a material similar to floating row cover to completely wrap
dwarf
trees.

It's called 'Surround'. It is a disgusting powder that covers your
fruit.

No, I'm not talking around something you spray or dust onto the fruit.
I'm
talking about a gossamer-like fabric which allows light & rain to
penetrate,
but stops the majority of insects from contacting the plant. In catalogs
and
garden stores, you'll see it labeled as "floating row cover" because it's
so
lightweight that it appears to float. I can't recall where, but in the
past,
I've seen it sold in larger sizes for covering dwarf fruit trees.

I have heard of this material for ground covers on plants like
strawberries,
but I do not see it as a practical use atop a fruit tree. The branches
of
the
tree would poke holes in it allowing the critters to come in.

Never having used it, you have no basis for the claim that it would be
mechanically unreliable. You just want to believe it. Faith has no place in
science or gardening.

My Appologies to the group! I didn't intend to start a ****ing contest!

Ron H.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Doug Kanter wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


I don't know what you spray with, but as the web sites indicate,
some
products are systemic, so you can wash your apples all day long and
you
won't get rid of those chemicals. And, sun, wind & rain won't do a
thing,
either.

You are definitely wrong about the sun, wind, & rain. It's a
question
of
quantity,
and I specifically said that the residue remaining would not be
significant. We
ingest much more junk into our bodies by just breathing our
poluted
air. If
you
wanted to be safe, you would become another 'bubble boy', who was
locked
into a completely controlled environment because of his poor
immune
system.
If you define organic to something that grows naturally, you may
want
to
think
about Wolfsbane, Death Angel Mushrooms, Marijuana, Hemlock,
Foxglove,
Mandrake, Poison Sumac, etc. I am not suggesting these are used
on
apples,
but I am just using that as an illustration for comparison.

I'm definitely wrong about sun, wind and rain?? Before we continue,
let's
agree on some definitions. Do you know what "systemic" means? Do not
post
links to dictionaries or any other source. Tell me in your own words
what
a
systemic pesticide is.

Since you were the first one to use the term, why don't you tell me
what
you meant it to be?

You're pretty slippery. A systemic is a substance which is absorbed into
the
plant's tissue. It is not removed by wind, rain, sun, or washing the
fruit.
It may break down in some way, but since you know nothing about the
chemicals you're discussing, you can't make that claim without further
research. You're exactly the kind of customer the chemical companies hope
for.

The foodnews.org site provides a list of chemicals commonly found in
certain
fruits and vegetables. Some are systemic. Their list is a good starting
point for your learning process.


I don't grow fruit trees, but I seem to recall reading about the
idea
of
using a material similar to floating row cover to completely wrap
dwarf
trees.

It's called 'Surround'. It is a disgusting powder that covers your
fruit.

No, I'm not talking around something you spray or dust onto the fruit.
I'm
talking about a gossamer-like fabric which allows light & rain to
penetrate,
but stops the majority of insects from contacting the plant. In
catalogs
and
garden stores, you'll see it labeled as "floating row cover" because
it's
so
lightweight that it appears to float. I can't recall where, but in the
past,
I've seen it sold in larger sizes for covering dwarf fruit trees.

I have heard of this material for ground covers on plants like
strawberries,
but I do not see it as a practical use atop a fruit tree. The
branches
of
the
tree would poke holes in it allowing the critters to come in.

Never having used it, you have no basis for the claim that it would be
mechanically unreliable. You just want to believe it. Faith has no place
in
science or gardening.

"Ron H" wrote in message
...
My Appologies to the group! I didn't intend to start a ****ing contest!

Ron H.

You didn't, Ron. There's always one shmexpert around who likes to spread
misinformation about pesticides. I enjoy crushing them.

As far as your situation, I like what the late Henry Mitchell (a garden
writer) said about growing one's own fruit: If you buy sprayed fruit from
the grocery store, you're exposed to weird chemicals. If you spray it
yourself, you're exposed to it even more.

Do some research on organic methods. You might not get perfect apples, but
you can probably take some measures that will make an improvement over doing
nothing.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:40:12 -0600, "Ron H" wrote:

OK, It's a moderately nice January day and I finished pruning the apple
trees. Looks like it's going to be a great year for apples but I need to
know the what, when, where, and how much of spraying apples trees to fend
off both predator and disease!

Any advice, references, etc???

Ron H.
West Central Wisconsin



Go he
http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/organasp.htm

It would be helpful if you'd read. He said he was from Wisconsin.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:29:25 -0600, sherwindu
wrote:

Hi Ron,
It would be a bit helpful to know where you are located, but not critical
to this
issue. The first line of defense would be a spraying of dormant oil. This
will smother
the eggs of the insects before they emerge. Pick a dry spell and reasonably
warm
days above freezing, to apply. Add a 'sticker' for retention. Too early and
you may
lose some effect from the washing away of the oil, and too late might miss
the
emergence of the insects from their eggs.
I would follow up with spraying with fungicide in the Spring. You can
add a pesticide to this after the petals fall from the blossoms, to avoid
killing any friendly
pollinator insects like bees. After this, follow up with periodic spraying
every few
weeks, to harvest. I would recommend a general orchard spray for this later
spraying.
If you find you have some really nasty bugs or fungus problems, you may have
to change the sprays to something stronger and more specific. This sounds
kind of nebulous, but you need to figure out what kinds of bugs and fungus
are attacking your trees. You can check with your local Extension Services
for assistance, if normal measures don't work.
Be sure and wear a breather mask, cover all exposed skin, goggles over the
eyes, and wash up good afterwards, when using the chemicals.

Sherwin D.

Ron H wrote:

OK, It's a moderately nice January day and I finished pruning the apple
trees. Looks like it's going to be a great year for apples but I need to
know the what, when, where, and how much of spraying apples trees to fend
off both predator and disease!

Any advice, references, etc???

Ron H.
West Central Wisconsin

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ron H" wrote in message
...
My Appologies to the group! I didn't intend to start a ****ing contest!

Ron H.

You didn't, Ron. There's always one shmexpert around who likes to spread
misinformation about pesticides. I enjoy crushing them.

And what makes you such a shmexpert?

I'm not crushed. You organic guys treat this subject like a religion. I'm
not
buying it. The whole organic thing is overstressed, overcommercialized, and
in many respects incorrect.



As far as your situation, I like what the late Henry Mitchell (a garden
writer) said about growing one's own fruit: If you buy sprayed fruit from
the grocery store, you're exposed to weird chemicals. If you spray it
yourself, you're exposed to it even more.

At least I know what chemicals I'm using on my fruit. The commercial guys
(including the organies) can spray with anything they want and you are not
any wiser. There is no medical evidence that controled chemical spraying
causes any disease. Sure a car produces lethal carbon monoxide, but nobody
tells you to put your nose to the exhaust pipe. There are polutants all
around
us, which are out of our control to avoid. I put chemical spraying way way
down the list when I control the spraying and washing of the fruit
afterwords.
I would also like to see some documented evidence that the sun has no effect
on burning off these chemicals. Anyone who eats his fruit right after
spraying
and doesn't even wash it off is ingesting bad stuff, and I am not
recommending
that people do that.

I think we have given Ron two basic choices, organic or not. If you are a
nut
about using chemicals, you go organic. If you think you can use them wisely
and preserve more of your fruit, you use chemicals.



Do some research on organic methods. You might not get perfect apples, but
you can probably take some measures that will make an improvement over doing
nothing.

Jangchub wrote:

It would be helpful if you'd read. He said he was from Wisconsin.

It would also be helpful if you checked ALL the postings as I immediately
followed up my posting by saying I missed his location the first time, but
I corrected in my second posting.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make with the article you referenced.
Was it intended to support chemical spraying, or not. The article starts off
in the first paragraph with the following:

"To successfully grow apples organically under Michigan conditions growers must
recognize that the limited number of organically
approved insect and disease control chemicals that are available leave them
particularly susceptible to two major insect pests,
Plum Curculio and Apple Maggot since no real good organic controls have been
devised for these insects. Major diseases of
apples can be controlled but require many frequent sprays particularly from silver
tip to 4 weeks after petal fall."

I would not consider that a recommendation for total dependence on Organic
spraying.

He also recommends Pyrethrum or Rotenone for Apple Maggot. I have tried both and
found them
inadequate. He also says that there is no effective spray for Plum Curculio, but
Imidan does nicely
for that, although it's distribution is restricted.

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...

And what makes you such a shmexpert?

I don't claim to be an expert. However, I *do* know that some chemicals are
DESIGNED to be absorbed into the plant tissue, while others are INTENDED to
work on the surface of the plant. Perhaps you thought that when I said
"systemic", I meant that the absorbtion was a chancy kind of thing. It's
not. The manufacturers clearly explain how the products work.

You, however, were oblivious to these two major categories, right? You
didn't know what "systemic" meant. You may, in fact be using some products
which work this way, but you have no idea. Therefore, I did not need to be
an expert in order to tell you that you can't claim anything about how rain,
wind, sun or washing will remove residues. Nothing removes systemics except
the passage of time (sometimes).


I'm not crushed. You organic guys treat this subject like a religion.

Nah...I'm not that fanatical about it, mainly because there's little I can
do about chemicals. If I need carrots, and none are available in the organic
area at the store, I buy regular ones. What I *am* fanatical about is
stopping the spread of misinformation. There are two generations (so far)
which totally missed a period in history when chemical companies were much
more in the news than they are now. For a number of reasons, they're not
much in the news these days unless you search past the local rag newspapers.


At least I know what chemicals I'm using on my fruit. The commercial
guys
(including the organies) can spray with anything they want and you are
not
any wiser.

No they can't. There are lists of approved chemicals, not that it really
matters. However, farmers are actually using less than 20 years ago. Some
crops are still a nightmare, like the perfect potatoes that are the only
ones McDonald's will accept for use as French fries. But, there are now two
major point sources of agricultural chemicals which contribute more to
dirtying the environment, and they're not farmers. Care to guess what those
sources are?



There is no medical evidence that controled chemical spraying
causes any disease.

Actually, there are, and it's easy to find out more about it. You'd probably
doubt the research, though, because that's your frame of mind.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...

And what makes you such a shmexpert?

I don't claim to be an expert. However, I *do* know that some chemicals are
DESIGNED to be absorbed into the plant tissue, while others are INTENDED to
work on the surface of the plant. Perhaps you thought that when I said
"systemic", I meant that the absorbtion was a chancy kind of thing. It's
not. The manufacturers clearly explain how the products work.

You, however, were oblivious to these two major categories, right?

I'm only interested in what's harmful to me, or not, and I'm not interested
in arguing
semantics. I know that these sprays are designed to work on the surface of
the
apples. Assigning technical names to them does not make them any better or
worse at doing that.

You
didn't know what "systemic" meant. You may, in fact be using some products
which work this way, but you have no idea. Therefore, I did not need to be
an expert in order to tell you that you can't claim anything about how rain,
wind, sun or washing will remove residues. Nothing removes systemics except
the passage of time (sometimes).

My claims come from direct experience. I have experience with these sprays,
such
that if I don't renew them every so often, they loose their effect on killing
fungus and
insects. There is only one reason for this, dissipation of the chemical due
to sun,
wind, and rain.



I'm not crushed. You organic guys treat this subject like a religion.

Nah...I'm not that fanatical about it, mainly because there's little I can
do about chemicals. If I need carrots, and none are available in the organic
area at the store, I buy regular ones. What I *am* fanatical about is
stopping the spread of misinformation.

That includes scaring the hell out of people for no good reason. Most of us
are aware of the chemicals in our society and have learned to live with them.

Because nuclear fission can produce atomic bombs, we don't close down
our nuclear power plants. I think we should build more, since they are a
CLEAN and efficient way to produce energy. If not for chemical pesticides,
we would have world wide famine. When the organic stuff can get to the point

where it can take over, I'm all for it. It's not there yet.

There are two generations (so far)
which totally missed a period in history when chemical companies were much
more in the news than they are now. For a number of reasons, they're not
much in the news these days unless you search past the local rag newspapers.

At least I know what chemicals I'm using on my fruit. The commercial
guys
(including the organies) can spray with anything they want and you are
not
any wiser.

No they can't. There are lists of approved chemicals, not that it really
matters. However, farmers are actually using less than 20 years ago. Some
crops are still a nightmare, like the perfect potatoes that are the only
ones McDonald's will accept for use as French fries.

Would you accept anything less?

But, there are now two
major point sources of agricultural chemicals which contribute more to
dirtying the environment, and they're not farmers. Care to guess what those
sources are?

There is no medical evidence that controled chemical spraying
causes any disease.

Actually, there are, and it's easy to find out more about it. You'd probably
doubt the research, though, because that's your frame of mind.

My mind state is that there is lot's of research in this field both pro and
con,
but nothing definitive has been shown. I feel that with proper usage,
chemicals can
be safely used.

sherwindu expounded:

That includes scaring the hell out of people for no good reason. Most of us
are aware of the chemicals in our society and have learned to live with them.

Learned to live with them. Learned to accept poisons. Somehow our
bodies have adapted to the poisons surrounding them. Ya.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:58:21 -0600, sherwindu
wrote:

we don't close down
our nuclear power plants. I think we should build more, since they are a
CLEAN and efficient way to produce energy. If not for chemical pesticides,
we would have world wide famine. When the organic stuff can get to the point



Oh Oh, another deluded amerikan.....

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:07:18 -0800, Tom Jaszewski
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:58:21 -0600, sherwindu
wrote:

we don't close down
our nuclear power plants. I think we should build more, since they are a
CLEAN and efficient way to produce energy. If not for chemical pesticides,
we would have world wide famine. When the organic stuff can get to the point



Oh Oh, another deluded amerikan.....

They're everywhere.

"Tom Jaszewski" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:58:21 -0600, sherwindu
wrote:

we don't close down
our nuclear power plants. I think we should build more, since they are
a
CLEAN and efficient way to produce energy. If not for chemical
pesticides,
we would have world wide famine. When the organic stuff can get to the
point



Oh Oh, another deluded amerikan.....

I forgot to ask him "Who told you to say these things?"

The crazies in Iran said if I promote atomic energy plants here, we may let
them build some in Iran.

Let's campaign to turn off all the nuclear power plants and fire up all those
clean
coal burning generators.

For the millions of starving people in the world, lets see if we can up the ante
by
letting the crops go to hell.



Doug Kanter wrote:


I forgot to ask him "Who told you to say these things?"

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...

Doug Kanter wrote:


I forgot to ask him "Who told you to say these things?"



The crazies in Iran said if I promote atomic energy plants here, we may
let
them build some in Iran.

Let's campaign to turn off all the nuclear power plants and fire up all
those
clean
coal burning generators.

For the millions of starving people in the world, lets see if we can up
the ante
by
letting the crops go to hell.



Ah ha! Rush Limbaugh is your master, your mother ship. I knew it sounded
familiar. Or, do you have a relative working for Dow, who says "Of course
these things are safe. How could we sell them if they weren't safe?"