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#16
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:48:39 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote: At this point, I'm thinking about the electric bill. Cooling 5000 square feet could cost a lot. We have a 50 foot pool and a 2500 square foot home and last month, which was entirely over 100 degrees with no relief at night cost us almost 400 dollars. We keep the air at 79 because of my medical condition. And those are TX prices. My mother lives up on Long Island ON the water. She uses her air conditioning about half the time and her house is not quite 2000 feet and her bill was 475 last month. |
#17
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
"blueman" wrote in message ... I have a relatively small lawn (maybe 5 thousand square feet spread across a couple of patches) that has developed seemingly more brown than green spots, including a bit of a mat of dead grass. I know I need to do something to condition the soil and re-seed this fall. I am considering aerating, dethatching, and then overseeding. I am confused about which of these tasks requires a power machine (and hence rental) vs. the ability to do by hand. If the marginal benefit is not too great, I would prefer not to have to rent 3 separate machines. - My understanding is that aeration requires a power machine to do it right, so presumably I need to rent an aerator. - Do I need a dethatcher or could I do just as good a job with a special dethatching rake? - Do I need an overseeder machine or can I do almost as good a job with a standard Scott's broadcast spreader? - If I rent an overseeder, do I still need an aerator or will the overseeder do a reasonably good job of opening up the soil? - Finally, is this the right order of operations: Aerate Dethatch Fertilize/lime Seed/overseed Water Water Water... Thanks Blueman. You have got some excellent advice to your question, especially checking things out your soil before you do anything. One matter I will add that no one else has, and it is not a big things, see what the soil life is like. Kay suggested cutting a core out of your soil. When doing that check to see the worm life in your soil. If you have sweet stuff all worms it indicates that probably your soil is not functioning that well to support growth. You can bypass the soil life and grow grass however having a functioning soil life will make it easier to get a nice lawn and keep a nice lawn. You may well have to do everything else suggested to you, but once you have gotten there simple things like mowing higher, mulching grass in to the lawn, going very lightly on chemical sprays and changing synthetic fertilisers to organic fertilisers (though mulch mowing will deliver many of the nutrients back in to your lawn) will encourage your soil to operate as it should and support a nice healthy lawn. As an example, a good population of worms do a good job of keeping thatch under control and build up a layer of humus that retains moisture. rob |
#18
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
"Joseph Meehan" writes:
blueman wrote: I have a relatively small lawn (maybe 5 thousand square feet spread across a couple of patches) that has developed seemingly more brown than green spots, including a bit of a mat of dead grass. ... - Finally, is this the right order of operations: Aerate Dethatch Fertilize/lime Seed/overseed Water Water Water... Thanks No you missed the first step. Find out what the problem is. You are trying to fix half a dozen different problems none of which may be the one causing the problem. Good point! I will investigate! |
#19
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
Kay Lancaster writes:
First, cut some sod samples to see what's going on with the soil, in both a green and a brown patch. Water first with a sprinkler for 15 minutes before trying to cut the sample, and then wait 15 minutes before cutting. Can you get a spade in easily? If so, it probably doesn't need aeration, unless you've got traffic lanes (a dog patrolling your fencelines, a mailcarrier wearing a path, etc.). Is there a difference between the two samples in how far the water penetrated into the soil? Is there a lot of dead stuff (like more than 1/2 inch) just above the soil in brown areas making a layer that water doesn't penetrate? If not, you don't have thatch (and chances are, you don't have thatch anyhow -- unless you've been feeding the lawn quite heavily. Hmmmm, well the patches are irregularly shaped and randomly scattered with each alive and dead area maybe only about a couple square feet. Even the live areas aren't exactly lush (they still are thinned out and have brown within them, just not all dead). And btw, we don't have a dog or anything like that... I did fertilize 3 times this spring (once with Scott's Stage 1 and twice with Scott's stage 2). I used the second application of Stage 2 because I feared that after the huge rainstorms in May/June (we live in the Boston area) that the anti-weed protection had dissolved and that the fertilizer had been used up by the rapid initial growth caused by the rain. The lawn did grow quite lusciously at first probably due to a combination of rain and fertilizer. There are 2 additional possible causes to our problem. First, our lawn lies on a sloping hill surrounded by maple trees so the soil tends to dry out; however, as above we had a VERY wet May/June and I have been watering the lawn since 3 times a week for 50 minutes. I am hesitant to water more due to the cost of water and I was told that better to water fewer times for longer to encourage root growth and discourage crab grass. Also, even on the other side of the house where the lawn is flat, the grass is pretty anemic with a lot of mixed in dead strands (just not as severe or patched as in the sloped areas). Second, because of the near constant May/June rains, the initial grass grew pretty lushly to about 6-8 inches high before I had a chance to cut it. I then cut it back to the medium setting on my mower/mulcher so I don't know if I "shocked" the lawn too much. This tends to leave about 2-3 inches of lawn. Interestingly (and perhaps this is the KEY), is that while the lawn was growing extremely fast and green during the April/May rains, it has hardly grown anywhere (even in the relatively green areas) over the past 8 weeks - so much so that when I mow there is very little to cut. Even in the non-dead areas, the grass is thin with mixed in brown strands and very anemic growth. So it seems like something "shocked" almost the entire lawn causing some areas to die and other areas to fade and stop growing. Regarding thatch, what I mean is that there is dead grass that is lying in a light mat on the ground, particularly in the dead areas -- most likely representing a combination of grass that died and the longer grass that I cut earlier in the season during the rains. Hopefully, this is helpful in adding more detail... http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...re/DG1123.html Were the brown areas quite green in cooler temps, and the areas that weren't so green are now green? If so, that suggests you've got a mixture of warm season (Zoysia, buffalo grass, crabgrass, etc.) and cool season (bluegrass, fescues) in your lawn, and they're reacting quite predictably to summer temps. Again areas are random with no apparant difference. If you get back to us with the results of that spade test, we can suggest some better ways of going on. Personally, I'd start with a soil test, especially if you've not been liming and fertilizing regularly. That's no matter what the spade test shows. I'd also pull a sample for a shake test, to determine particle size composition of the soil. My gut feeling is you've probably got a mixture of warm and cool season grasses; if the warm season grass is crabgrass (it'd be green now in hot weather), it's an annual and can be "cured" with proper fertilization, mowing and overseeding. Might want to poke around on the web and match pictures of blooming/seeding grasses in your lawn to some of the common lawn weeds. Assuming you've got crabgrass, I'd suggest running through the areas with a tiller, scattering (by hand) in good fresh lawn seed of desirable species, firming up the soil, and then watering this fall. Apply lime and a good "starter fertilizer" without pesticide this fall; lime and a spring fertilizer next year. And get the mower blade sharpened... one of the biggest causes of ratty looking lawns. Kay |
#20
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
"Bob" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message ... I have a relatively small lawn (maybe 5 thousand square feet spread across a couple of patches) that has developed seemingly more brown than green spots, including a bit of a mat of dead grass. I know I need to do something to condition the soil and re-seed this fall. When was the last time you fertilized? Watered? Where are you? Bob I fertilized generously with Scott's stage 1 in early April. Then generously with Scott's stage 2 in early May, then again with Scott's stage 2 in early June since I was concerned that with all the heavy rains we experienced in Boston in May/June that the anti-weed protection had washed away and that the fertilizer had been consumed. I also limed once. We live in the Boston area. |
#21
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
Al Bundy writes:
Have you considered the possibility of disease or bugs? Brown areas can be caused by this. For instance, grubs will chow on the roots and create brown spots. You can usually grab the brown turf and pull up a patch because they have destroyed the roots. Or if you go cut down at the edge of the brown and pull up the edge you will actually see the grubs. A prime indicator of grubs is skunks that dig in your yard. People want to shoot the skunks not realizing they are doing them a favor by digging a relatively small hole to eat their delicasy food, grubs. Disease is another story. Gotta ID it. Bottom line whether it's bad mowing or someone spraying Triox on your lawn at night, you gotta ID the root cause and not just throw stuff at it like a jackpot. Agree. Not grubs cuz I applied Grub Ex in April. We also have had grubs previously and this is nothing like it (no holes from squirrels, no turf picking up). Could be other disease but don't know how to identify. Also, as mentioned in a reply to another poster, the whole lawn seems to have been "shocked" into slow and anemic growth -- with some areas growing very, very slowly (doesn't need mowing even after 3 weeks), other areas thinned or admixed with brown strands of grass, and other small scattered patches just all dead. Any suggestions on how to ID disease or do you need to send a sample to some "expert" somewhere? |
#22
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
Goedjn writes:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:30:28 GMT, blueman wrote: I have a relatively small lawn (maybe 5 thousand square feet spread across a couple of patches) that has developed seemingly more brown than green spots, including a bit of a mat of dead grass. - Finally, is this the right order of operations: Aerate Dethatch Fertilize/lime Seed/overseed Water Water Water... Thanks Nope. You left out "soil test". OK - I just looked up our state lab and they offer a long list of tests, including the following. Am I right in assuming I just need either the "Standard Soil Test" or the "Standard Soil Test with Organic Matter"? 1. Standard Soil Test: $9 Includes pH, Buffer pH, Extractable Nutrients (P, K, Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B), Extractable Heavy Metals (Pb, Cd, Ni, Cr), and Extractable Aluminum, Cation Exchange Capacity, Percent Base Saturation. 2. Standard Soil Test w/ Organic Matter: $13 Same as Standard Soil Test with the addition of Percent Organic Matter by Loss on Ignition. 3. Soluble Salts: $4 Includes a measure of the Electrical Conductivity of a 1:2 (soil:water) extract. 4. Soil Textu $50 A determination of USDA Textural Classification by combined Hydrometer Analysis of silts and clay and Dry Sieving of sands. Title 5 Parameters also determined upon request at submittal. Results presented in Tabular Format. 5. Total Soil Metals: $30 A determination of the Total Soil Contents of K, Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Pb, Cd, Ni, and Cr. Also included are the non-metals P and B. Analysis by ICP Spectrometry of Nitric/Perchloric Acid Digest. 6. Total Soil Nitrogen: $10 A determination of the Total Nitrogen in the soil by catalytic combustion |
#23
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:50:38 GMT, blueman wrote:
Kay Lancaster writes: Hmmmm, well the patches are irregularly shaped and randomly scattered with each alive and dead area maybe only about a couple square feet. Even the live areas aren't exactly lush (they still are thinned out and have brown within them, just not all dead). And btw, we don't have a dog or anything like that... That's exactly what I'd expect of a lawn with a disease, weed or insect problem, especially one that's stressed from being in shade. Second, because of the near constant May/June rains, the initial grass grew pretty lushly to about 6-8 inches high before I had a chance to cut it. I then cut it back to the medium setting on my mower/mulcher so I don't know if I "shocked" the lawn too much. This tends to leave about 2-3 inches of lawn. I don't know the correct mowing height for your lawn, as you don't tell us what species you're growing. But yes, this could contribute to your problems. So could OD'ing on the fertilizer/weedkiller combination. Regarding thatch, what I mean is that there is dead grass that is lying in a light mat on the ground, particularly in the dead areas -- most likely representing a combination of grass that died and the longer grass that I cut earlier in the season during the rains. That's not thatch. Thatch is almost impenetrable by water, thick, spongy and undecayed. You've just got some duff. You have an excellent extension service in Texas; they can help you identify the species of grass you've got, do a soil test, make fertilization recommendations, and tell you what diseases or cultural problems they see in samples you submit. Now that I know you're in Houston (I thought your original post's headers indicated a yankee lawn g), a fungal disease is a whole lot more likely. Or you may have a lawn with species poorly chosen for your growing conditions. Or you may have an insect problem despite your earlier application of grub control. Here's a start for you from the TX extension website: http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/p...turf/turf.html but I think you'd probably be best served by picking up the phone and dialing your area extension office (I know there's one in Dickinson, and I'm pretty sure there's a Harris County office, too. Ask how to submit samples for analysis and disease inspection. The key to having a lawn that looks good without killing yourself is to choose the species you're growing to match soil and water and sun conditions, fertilize and lime properly, mow at the correct height and correct time, and keep those mower blades sharp. Ragged cuts are open invitations to diseases. With the proper selection of species and cultivars (varieties) and good mowing practices, you'll spend less time on the lawn, and need far fewer treatments of one sort or another. Kay's rules for sanity in lawn ca -- choose your species well -- know your soil -- mow properly -- treat the problems you've actually got, not the problems you might have. Kay, who spent more than enough time in Houston in August vbg |
#24
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.gardens.]
On 30 Aug 2006 21:42:03 GMT, Kay Lancaster wrote: Gads, I need caffeine. You said Boston, not Houston. My apologies. Same basic advice, holds, though -- shake test for soil texture, send out samples for nutrient analysis, pH, possibly for salinity, find out who does disease testing in your area... A conversation with the local extension office (or maybe one of the outreach offices of gardens in your area) may get you some leads on possible diseases that have been cropping up recently. Usually, when weather is triggering a disease or insect outbreak, it's all over, not just in one yard. If yours is the only area really affected, I'd be thinking cultural issues. But I'm willing to bet thatch isn't your problem. Had you said there are different textures of grasses in the green and brown spots, I'd have thought crabrass and hot weather. With the water stress you've been having out there, however, it could be a number of things. Kay |
#25
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
"blueman" wrote in message ... "Bob" writes: "blueman" wrote in message ... I have a relatively small lawn (maybe 5 thousand square feet spread across a couple of patches) that has developed seemingly more brown than green spots, including a bit of a mat of dead grass. I know I need to do something to condition the soil and re-seed this fall. When was the last time you fertilized? Watered? Where are you? Bob I fertilized generously with Scott's stage 1 in early April. Then generously with Scott's stage 2 in early May, then again with Scott's stage 2 in early June since I was concerned that with all the heavy rains we experienced in Boston in May/June that the anti-weed protection had washed away and that the fertilizer had been consumed. If by "anti-weed protection", you mean weed-n-feed type fertilizer, it kills on contact, and you get no weed control benefit after rain or watering. That's why they say don't water for 3 days. Don't worry about it. It's done its job. You could be over fertilizing, causing the grass to grow too fast and become at risk due to heat and drought. I do light fertilizing about half as often as you do, here in Seattle which isn't nearly as hot as Boston. Bob |
#26
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
"blueman" wrote in message First, our lawn lies on a sloping hill surrounded by maple trees so the soil tends to dry out; however, as above we had a VERY wet May/June and I have been watering the lawn since 3 times a week for 50 minutes. I am hesitant to water more due to the cost of water and I was told that better to water fewer times for longer to encourage root growth and discourage crab grass. What you are told is correct. But 3 times a week is probably way too much. 1 inch once a week is what I hear recommended. You need to measure your watering rate to get it right. Second, because of the near constant May/June rains, the initial grass grew pretty lushly to about 6-8 inches high before I had a chance to cut it. I then cut it back to the medium setting on my mower/mulcher so I don't know if I "shocked" the lawn too much. This tends to leave about 2-3 inches of lawn. I see recommendations to never remove more than 1/3 of the grass in a mowing. Otherwise, you remove the leaves, and only stem is left. This could be your problem. Better to mow longer, then mow again in a few days. Bob |
#27
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
blueman wrote in
: Al Bundy writes: Have you considered the possibility of disease or bugs? Brown areas can be caused by this. For instance, grubs will chow on the roots and create brown spots. You can usually grab the brown turf and pull up a patch because they have destroyed the roots. Or if you go cut down at the edge of the brown and pull up the edge you will actually see the grubs. A prime indicator of grubs is skunks that dig in your yard. People want to shoot the skunks not realizing they are doing them a favor by digging a relatively small hole to eat their delicasy food, grubs. Disease is another story. Gotta ID it. Bottom line whether it's bad mowing or someone spraying Triox on your lawn at night, you gotta ID the root cause and not just throw stuff at it like a jackpot. Agree. Not grubs cuz I applied Grub Ex in April. We also have had grubs previously and this is nothing like it (no holes from squirrels, no turf picking up). Could be other disease but don't know how to identify. Also, as mentioned in a reply to another poster, the whole lawn seems to have been "shocked" into slow and anemic growth -- with some areas growing very, very slowly (doesn't need mowing even after 3 weeks), other areas thinned or admixed with brown strands of grass, and other small scattered patches just all dead. Any suggestions on how to ID disease or do you need to send a sample to some "expert" somewhere? Those lawn service franchises will ID and treat it as part of the periodic fertilizing fee. They do charge extra for things like aerating, lime, soil testing, etc. They advertise if you are not happy between feedings with progress they will come back at no charge. When you have a problem as you do, in the long run it will cost less then guessing , buying and applying on your own. When they get it straightend out just cancel it. Just a possible approach. |
#28
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Aerate vs. Dethatch vs. Overseed
Don't know about Boston area, but here in NJ this was a very bad summer
for disease. There are many lawns in my area that suffered severe damage. I had some problem areas as well, most likely pythium blight and brown patch. The grass in a few areas just collapsed and died in the first two days of 90+ heat. I'd start by getting the soil tested and adjust the PH if needed. Are you sure you have a thatch problem? Thatch is a thick layer of undecayed grass matter that is so dense water has a difficult time penetrating. It is most common on bluegrass and usually not a problem with fescues. Now is the best time to aerate and overseed. If the grass has been a problem for sometime, is of poor quality, disease prone, etc, you may want to kill it all off and reseed the whole thing. You can do that with Roundup and reseed about 10 days later. Forget about doing it by hand. You can get quotes on having it done, but I think you'll find you can do it yourself for a fraction of the cost. You can rent a core aerator for $50 for a half day. Same for a slice seeder. I'd aerate first, then use the slice seeder. While you can just spread the seed around after aerating, using a slice seeder is far more effective. It cuts slits and gets the seed into them, assuring good germination. Make sure you choose the right type of grass for the location and conditions. Buy only the best quality seed. There are many new varieties of really superior seed available today. After seeding, put down starter fertilizer and keep it constantly damp for 2-3 weeks. |
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