"George.com" wrote in message
...

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:32:06 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:

Apparently 40% of treated water in the US leaks from pipes & never
reaches
it destination. At present rate of repair it will take around 900 years
to
rectify the problem.

In China it seems 53% of rivers, 50% of lakes & 35% of aquifers are
polluted.

Wonderful stuff.

rob


All you state is true and thanks for the observations on Cuba. Your
water degradation parallels ours, though ours started sooner. Hell,
man, we aren't even supposed to eat the fish out of our rivers in my
part of the world, at least not more than one per week. Children
shouldn't eat any. Yeah, that sounds like healthy fish.

society may collapse in a screaming heap and very quickly our civilised
way
of life screeches to a abrupt halt. I am not sure what the days were like
on
Easter Island following the last tree being felled. It may have been that
way, it may have been a more gradual decline into a lower plain of living.
The latter is what I observed in Cuba, things didn't suddenly and
irreperably fall apart yet the deprivation the populace went through was
significant and real.

I suspect that if we continue as we are, or make piecemeal steps toward
trying to clean up our crap, the environmental constraints we will come up
against will mean society continues along but will face lean times and
tough
times. I may not expect total anarchy but it will get harder. Thats not
just
economy wise with things like rising unemployment, inflation, lower growth
etc. I also imagine things like infrastructure decay, shortages, maybe
rationing & social dislocation.

Cubas experience, whilst by no means absolutely prefiguritive displayed
all
of that. Decaying water, power, transport & housing infrastructure.
Shortages of oil, chemicals, food, basic household commodities &
transport.
Social dislocation did not occur so much perhaps as people moving large
distances as rather a generation growing up in leaner times than those
before (and I have to state that tentatively as this is only a snapshot
observation). The legitemacy of the system previous generations had
accepted, ie consent given by previous generations, because it gave them
security of life was not mirrored automatically by the younger
generations.

That said, if we unknowingly reached a tipping point, the environment may
simply spasm and stop working properly setting loose a plague of plagues
thereby causing massive chaos and casualty. The stuff of Hollywood or
nuclear winter type scenario. I presume Easter Island did not suddenly
become uninhabitable once the last tree was chopped but successive
generations may have had a little less than the ones before. Confitions
and
quality of life went down a little year by year. The eventual outcome foe
Easter Island was apparently internal strife and bloodshed. I am not
suggesting automatically that is the end result for us all. We may become
a
little wiser and learn to live within the means of what we have, live a
negotiated society where things are more rationed and planned. I can't see
the current helter skelter of our existence continuing on however. Maybe I
am better to say "Our Current Mode of Life is screwed".

rob

Some alternative must therefore be necessary if we are heading toward
rooting our current way of life. Permaculture sets out some ways I can
envisage occurring. I guess I see this as an alternative type of approach,
whether we have the mind to achievable it. From wikipedia:

At the heart of permaculture design and practice is a fundamental set of
'core values' or ethics. These 'ethics' are often summarised as;
Earthcare - recognising that the Earth is the source of all life (and is
possibly itself a living entity- see Gaia theory) and that we recognise and
respect that the Earth is our valuable home and we are a part of the Earth,
not apart from it.
Peoplecare - supporting and helping each other to change to ways of living
that are not harming ourselves or the planet, and to develop healthy
societies.
Fairshare (or placing limits on consumption) - ensuring that the Earth's
limited resources are utilised in ways that are equitable and wise.

And weblink permaculture 'map'
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rmamandala.jpg

My vision of Cuba, before I went there, was of a developing country
permaculture. In many ways I guess it is when placed alongside the tests
outlined above.

There is an intense debate happening in NZ at present over housing
affordibility (becoming less and less affordible). Some 'experts' point ot
scarcity of land as fueling costs & advocate unlocking large amounts of land
on the fringes of our cities to drop the market on sections. All good and
fine we may think however I wonder about then people moving their way around
a city, to work, for leisure etc. Our cities do not have great public
transport as our population density is low.

An alternate view is for more intensive city living with compact housing and
multi dwelling sections built around transport hubs, thereby limiting urban
sprawl. If the density goes up the effective costs of per person public
transport goes the opposite way. There are limits however on land so costs
go up.

The former approach is essentially unlock a free market & let the market
decide. Problem is the market is premised on cheap oil and ability to travel
distance. The latter is premised more along pseudo-permaculture lines.
Problem there is cost pricing a section of the populace out of home
ownership. An area for government intervention & assistance maybe.

rob

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:32:06 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:

Apparently 40% of treated water in the US leaks from pipes & never reaches
it destination. At present rate of repair it will take around 900 years to
rectify the problem.

In China it seems 53% of rivers, 50% of lakes & 35% of aquifers are
polluted.

Wonderful stuff.

rob


All you state is true and thanks for the observations on Cuba. Your
water degradation parallels ours, though ours started sooner. Hell,
man, we aren't even supposed to eat the fish out of our rivers in my
part of the world, at least not more than one per week. Children
shouldn't eat any. Yeah, that sounds like healthy fish.

We have been dumping millions of pounds of poison on our crops and soil
every year for decades. Dead dolphins wash ashore after being killed
by military waste dumped offshore decades ago. Last week a housing
subdivision in Florida was evacuated because they "discovered" it had
been built on an old military testing range and live WWII erea
munitions were being dug up.

We are in process of perhaps genetically altering all life on earth.
Check out this cheery article:

http://countercurrents.org/mucci181007.htm

As you state, our infrastructure is crumbling, bridges falling in the
river, water systems falling apart, roads deteriorating at an alarming
rate. Hell, our infrastructure is being sold off to the highest
bidders! From anywhere.

Here is just one of many articles:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...chan=top+news_
top+news+index_top+story

You may have heard about the Dubai Ports deal that didn't happen here,
where our ports were up for sale, great plan that.

Eff me, Rob. I could rant forever about this.

You are right, we are screwed.

Carpe diem.

G'luck to us all
Charlie

One sun heats our ocean
Many clouds form and carry water
Condensate our rain falls pure
Unless our smoke is filtered and only small particles fly
to be trapped in the condensate.

Perhaps less generated will not overwhelm the system.
But can our children have less?
But can we redirect a % of military for global health?
The last two buts seem to be diametrically opposed yet the latter was to
protect the former.

Bill Waxing

Insane Eh?

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:32:06 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:

Apparently 40% of treated water in the US leaks from pipes & never
reaches
it destination. At present rate of repair it will take around 900 years
to
rectify the problem.

In China it seems 53% of rivers, 50% of lakes & 35% of aquifers are
polluted.

Wonderful stuff.

rob


All you state is true and thanks for the observations on Cuba. Your
water degradation parallels ours, though ours started sooner. Hell,
man, we aren't even supposed to eat the fish out of our rivers in my
part of the world, at least not more than one per week. Children
shouldn't eat any. Yeah, that sounds like healthy fish.

society may collapse in a screaming heap and very quickly our civilised way
of life screeches to a abrupt halt. I am not sure what the days were like on
Easter Island following the last tree being felled. It may have been that
way, it may have been a more gradual decline into a lower plain of living.
The latter is what I observed in Cuba, things didn't suddenly and
irreperably fall apart yet the deprivation the populace went through was
significant and real.

I suspect that if we continue as we are, or make piecemeal steps toward
trying to clean up our crap, the environmental constraints we will come up
against will mean society continues along but will face lean times and tough
times. I may not expect total anarchy but it will get harder. Thats not just
economy wise with things like rising unemployment, inflation, lower growth
etc. I also imagine things like infrastructure decay, shortages, maybe
rationing & social dislocation.

Cubas experience, whilst by no means absolutely prefiguritive displayed all
of that. Decaying water, power, transport & housing infrastructure.
Shortages of oil, chemicals, food, basic household commodities & transport.
Social dislocation did not occur so much perhaps as people moving large
distances as rather a generation growing up in leaner times than those
before (and I have to state that tentatively as this is only a snapshot
observation). The legitemacy of the system previous generations had
accepted, ie consent given by previous generations, because it gave them
security of life was not mirrored automatically by the younger generations.

That said, if we unknowingly reached a tipping point, the environment may
simply spasm and stop working properly setting loose a plague of plagues
thereby causing massive chaos and casualty. The stuff of Hollywood or
nuclear winter type scenario. I presume Easter Island did not suddenly
become uninhabitable once the last tree was chopped but successive
generations may have had a little less than the ones before. Confitions and
quality of life went down a little year by year. The eventual outcome foe
Easter Island was apparently internal strife and bloodshed. I am not
suggesting automatically that is the end result for us all. We may become a
little wiser and learn to live within the means of what we have, live a
negotiated society where things are more rationed and planned. I can't see
the current helter skelter of our existence continuing on however. Maybe I
am better to say "Our Current Mode of Life is screwed".

rob

I have
often said women have to stop this five baby syndrome.

yep, it kinda makes me wanna smack some sense into ya too

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:24:41 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:

snip of good analysis

I can't see
the current helter skelter of our existence continuing on however. Maybe I
am better to say "Our Current Mode of Life is screwed".

rob


I am not that hopeful. Compared to a few years ago, our current mode
*is* already really screwed, and things appear to be going to hell in
handbasket in a big fat hurry, IMO.

Many days I feel as if I am working through Elisabeth Kubler-Ross's
steps. Good for the soul, this working through things ahead of time
and hopefully getting to the point of seizing and appreciating each day
as if it were my last.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publ...cle_2543.shtml

Carpe Diem

Everyone addicted to the same nicotine
Everyone addicted to the same gasoline
Everyone addicted to a technicolour scream
Everybody trying to get their hands on same green

Yell Fire,
Michael Franti
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:06:32 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:


_ snip-

agree. I also believe we are effed.

Easter Island is a very good analogy. Many of us do what we can on a
personal level; CFLs, recycle, conserve, try to make green purchases,

CFLs with their mercury are part of the problem. Domestic use LED (Light
Emitting Diode) bulb technology is there to make bulbs that:
1) are more energy efficient than CFLs,
2) last longer than CFLs,
3) work with dimmer switches and other devices that CFLs don't.
Some in the "Green" movement are in league with business that are
blocking these bulbs from being produced so that they can make their money
on CFLs.
Always follow the money.