"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If
the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

And what has brought on this sudden observation Rob? By that I mean, has
any specific incident set off this line of thought, or is it just a sudden
realisation?

Part 3 of a 3 part series "State of the Planet" narrated by David
Attenbrough. Part 1 & 2 were sobering enough. Essentially, there is so much
going on around the world that is damaging our environment, remedies to our
problems seem so piecemeal & limited, the changes to our environment that I
have seen inside a mere 20 years, all leaves me pessimistic that if we
continue with business as usual we are essentially fkd. 6 billion people
place a hell of a strain on the planet, 7 or 8 or 9 billion just add woes
upon woes.

The Easter Islanders once enjoyed a diet rich in sea food. At some point sea
food dissappeared from their diet. The reason? They cut down the last tree
that could be used to make canoes. They lost their ability to fish. The
civilisation that had been at its peak tailed off from there. A remnant of
Easter Islanders remained but their peak of civilisation was gone.
Generation by generation people lost a little bit but never realised, each
generation came to believe it had 'always been that way'.

In New Zealand the govt announced for the next 10 years any new electricity
generation will come from renewable sources, a moratorium on new thermal
generation. Even that modest step has been opposed by environmental knuckle
draggers. "Why should NZ do anything about global warming if the likes of
the US, China & Australia don't. They pollute more than us." Indeed, why
should Aus or the US or China do anything when NZ isn't. Bury your head in
the sand, business as usual.

If we all stand around wanking ourselves waiting for the next guy to do
something we may as well consign ourselves to continuing environmental
degredation, increasing ecological problems and social/economic fallout. We
face enough problems already, heaven knows it boggles my mind contemplating
the possible ramifications of what is occuring on the globe at the moment.
Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate
themselves so their profit/view/neighbourhood/way of life etc etc are not
unduly affected, in effect, condem us all to buggery. I am not that
confident we will address all the problems we have given the best of
intentions, ******s who are not prepared to lift a finger now give me no
hope at all that we will come even close to finding solutions.

rob

Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:40:09 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:

Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob



"we are screwed" plugged into Google gets over 32 million results.
Pretty popular opinion, I'd say.

"George.com" wrote in message
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

And what has brought on this sudden observation Rob? By that I mean, has
any specific incident set off this line of thought, or is it just a sudden
realisation?

"George.com" wrote in message
...
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob



Yes. And, most of the major problems today are a result of that. The
symptoms get attention and may be treated, but never the actual cause. Jang
has the right idea.
Dave

In article ,
"Dave" wrote:

"George.com" wrote in message
...
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob



Yes. And, most of the major problems today are a result of that. The
symptoms get attention and may be treated, but never the actual cause. Jang
has the right idea.
Dave

Hmmm.....

I would not worry too much about over population. It is sort of like the
predator / prey thing. Too many foxes results in fewer rabbits. Too many
humans / less food / fewer humans.

If that does not work, I am sure the Bio-Agriculture industry can modify
the foods so that sterility increases world wide. To help in the
population reduction. If they are not doing that now.

So take a note from Charles Darwin .. survival of the fittest
OR take a note from the Bible (King Solomon) Eat, Drink and be Merry

For tomorrow it may be all she wrote. It just sounds better than DEAD.

A bumper sticker I saw long ago "Save the planet - kill yourself".

The local cynic .... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

In article ,
"Dave" wrote:

"George.com" wrote in message
...
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob



Yes. And, most of the major problems today are a result of that. The
symptoms get attention and may be treated, but never the actual cause.
Jang
has the right idea.
Dave

Hmmm.....

I would not worry too much about over population. It is sort of like the
predator / prey thing. Too many foxes results in fewer rabbits. Too many
humans / less food / fewer humans.

If that does not work, I am sure the Bio-Agriculture industry can modify
the foods so that sterility increases world wide. To help in the
population reduction. If they are not doing that now.

So take a note from Charles Darwin .. survival of the fittest
OR take a note from the Bible (King Solomon) Eat, Drink and be Merry

For tomorrow it may be all she wrote. It just sounds better than DEAD.

A bumper sticker I saw long ago "Save the planet - kill yourself".

The local cynic .... Dan

I think of the Italian aristocrats who about 1300 ad said the world
was terrible and decided to be barren. I can't find the cite for that
but they are now extinct.
Some folks worry too much. If heaven brings forth things work with it
if so inclined.
The nature of existence is what this is about. Sweet, Sour, Bitter and


Bill Your Choice.

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

Dan L. said:

In article ,
"Dave" wrote:

"George.com" wrote in message
...
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob



Yes. And, most of the major problems today are a result of that. The
symptoms get attention and may be treated, but never the actual cause. Jang
has the right idea.
Dave

Hmmm.....

I would not worry too much about over population. It is sort of like the
predator / prey thing. Too many foxes results in fewer rabbits. Too many
humans / less food / fewer humans.

If that does not work, I am sure the Bio-Agriculture industry can modify
the foods so that sterility increases world wide. To help in the
population reduction. If they are not doing that now.

So take a note from Charles Darwin .. survival of the fittest
OR take a note from the Bible (King Solomon) Eat, Drink and be Merry

Or, take a note from Einstein, who said that when the bees go, humans will
go in six years. That makes a helluva lot of sense, when you think about
it.

[rest snipped]

--

Eggs

-Buy one for the price of two and get the second one free!

In article ,
Charles wrote:

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:40:09 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:

Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob



"we are screwed" plugged into Google gets over 32 million results.
Pretty popular opinion, I'd say.

and the sheep say "baaah"
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

"Dan L." wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dave" wrote:

"George.com" wrote in message
...
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If
the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

rob



Yes. And, most of the major problems today are a result of that. The
symptoms get attention and may be treated, but never the actual cause.
Jang
has the right idea.
Dave

Hmmm.....

I would not worry too much about over population. It is sort of like the
predator / prey thing. Too many foxes results in fewer rabbits. Too many
humans / less food / fewer humans.

If that does not work, I am sure the Bio-Agriculture industry can modify
the foods so that sterility increases world wide. To help in the
population reduction. If they are not doing that now.

So take a note from Charles Darwin .. survival of the fittest
OR take a note from the Bible (King Solomon) Eat, Drink and be Merry

For tomorrow it may be all she wrote. It just sounds better than DEAD.

A bumper sticker I saw long ago "Save the planet - kill yourself".

The local cynic .... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash
automatically.

Except for kids stoned out of their mind, they are on to the problem.
Family planning may turn into general family banning. Despite my cynicism
of past human behavior for now, I have hope for the future. But, I won't
relegate my cynicism or hope to a mangled form of humor. That form of humor
being unable to cope with reality.
Dave

In article ,
"George.com" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If
the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

And what has brought on this sudden observation Rob? By that I mean, has
any specific incident set off this line of thought, or is it just a sudden
realisation?

Part 3 of a 3 part series "State of the Planet" narrated by David
Attenbrough. Part 1 & 2 were sobering enough. Essentially, there is so much
going on around the world that is damaging our environment, remedies to our
problems seem so piecemeal & limited, the changes to our environment that I
have seen inside a mere 20 years, all leaves me pessimistic that if we
continue with business as usual we are essentially fkd. 6 billion people
place a hell of a strain on the planet, 7 or 8 or 9 billion just add woes
upon woes.

The Easter Islanders once enjoyed a diet rich in sea food. At some point sea
food dissappeared from their diet. The reason? They cut down the last tree
that could be used to make canoes. They lost their ability to fish. The
civilisation that had been at its peak tailed off from there. A remnant of
Easter Islanders remained but their peak of civilisation was gone.
Generation by generation people lost a little bit but never realised, each
generation came to believe it had 'always been that way'.

In New Zealand the govt announced for the next 10 years any new electricity
generation will come from renewable sources, a moratorium on new thermal
generation. Even that modest step has been opposed by environmental knuckle
draggers. "Why should NZ do anything about global warming if the likes of
the US, China & Australia don't. They pollute more than us." Indeed, why
should Aus or the US or China do anything when NZ isn't. Bury your head in
the sand, business as usual.

If we all stand around wanking ourselves waiting for the next guy to do
something we may as well consign ourselves to continuing environmental
degredation, increasing ecological problems and social/economic fallout. We
face enough problems already, heaven knows it boggles my mind contemplating
the possible ramifications of what is occuring on the globe at the moment.

Hmmm....
Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate
themselves so their profit/view/neighbourhood/way of life etc etc are not
unduly affected, in effect, condem us all to buggery. I am not that
confident we will address all the problems we have given the best of
intentions, ******s who are not prepared to lift a finger now give me no
hope at all that we will come even close to finding solutions.

rob
If those
"Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate"
They are doing their part. They will not have kids.

You worry too much, your logic is failing.
Try and get some sleep and end this thread.

Well, if it makes anyone feel better. I am doing my part:
I am happily single, have no kids (I just hope they remember to take
those pills), Electric bill always $50 / month, propane $80 / month,
gasoline $150, My garbage will fit inside in a small single grocery
bag (plastic sorry) per week . Comcast triple pay $150,
Books $100 / month ..... Ahhhhhhhhh all of those trees ... Noooooo.

It is not because I care about my environment - It is just my lifestyle.

Just do your own thing. Do not worry about such things as overpopulation
or what others do. It will only make you nuts, if not already. Focus on
life and be happy.

That is all you will hear from me on this subject
Enjoy Life ....... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

In article ,
"George.com" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If
the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

And what has brought on this sudden observation Rob? By that I mean, has
any specific incident set off this line of thought, or is it just a sudden
realisation?

Part 3 of a 3 part series "State of the Planet" narrated by David
Attenbrough. Part 1 & 2 were sobering enough. Essentially, there is so much
going on around the world that is damaging our environment, remedies to our
problems seem so piecemeal & limited, the changes to our environment that I
have seen inside a mere 20 years, all leaves me pessimistic that if we
continue with business as usual we are essentially fkd. 6 billion people
place a hell of a strain on the planet, 7 or 8 or 9 billion just add woes
upon woes.

The Easter Islanders once enjoyed a diet rich in sea food. At some point sea
food dissappeared from their diet. The reason? They cut down the last tree
that could be used to make canoes. They lost their ability to fish. The
civilisation that had been at its peak tailed off from there. A remnant of
Easter Islanders remained but their peak of civilisation was gone.
Generation by generation people lost a little bit but never realised, each
generation came to believe it had 'always been that way'.

In New Zealand the govt announced for the next 10 years any new electricity
generation will come from renewable sources, a moratorium on new thermal
generation. Even that modest step has been opposed by environmental knuckle
draggers. "Why should NZ do anything about global warming if the likes of
the US, China & Australia don't. They pollute more than us." Indeed, why
should Aus or the US or China do anything when NZ isn't. Bury your head in
the sand, business as usual.

If we all stand around wanking ourselves waiting for the next guy to do
something we may as well consign ourselves to continuing environmental
degredation, increasing ecological problems and social/economic fallout. We
face enough problems already, heaven knows it boggles my mind contemplating
the possible ramifications of what is occuring on the globe at the moment.

Hmmm....
Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate
themselves so their profit/view/neighbourhood/way of life etc etc are not
unduly affected, in effect, condem us all to buggery. I am not that
confident we will address all the problems we have given the best of
intentions, ******s who are not prepared to lift a finger now give me no
hope at all that we will come even close to finding solutions.

rob
If those
"Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate"
They are doing their part. They will not have kids.

You worry too much, your logic is failing.
Try and get some sleep and end this thread.

Well, if it makes anyone feel better. I am doing my part:
I am happily single, have no kids (I just hope they remember to take
those pills), Electric bill always $50 / month, propane $80 / month,
gasoline $150, My garbage will fit inside in a small single grocery
bag (plastic sorry) per week . Comcast triple pay $150,
Books $100 / month ..... Ahhhhhhhhh all of those trees ... Noooooo.

It is not because I care about my environment - It is just my lifestyle.

Just do your own thing. Do not worry about such things as overpopulation
or what others do. It will only make you nuts, if not already. Focus on
life and be happy.

That is all you will hear from me on this subject
Enjoy Life ....... Dan

.. . . and no one will miss you when your gone.
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

In article ,
"George.com" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If
the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

And what has brought on this sudden observation Rob? By that I mean,
has
any specific incident set off this line of thought, or is it just a
sudden
realisation?

Part 3 of a 3 part series "State of the Planet" narrated by David
Attenbrough. Part 1 & 2 were sobering enough. Essentially, there is so
much
going on around the world that is damaging our environment, remedies to
our
problems seem so piecemeal & limited, the changes to our environment that
I
have seen inside a mere 20 years, all leaves me pessimistic that if we
continue with business as usual we are essentially fkd. 6 billion people
place a hell of a strain on the planet, 7 or 8 or 9 billion just add woes
upon woes.

The Easter Islanders once enjoyed a diet rich in sea food. At some point
sea
food dissappeared from their diet. The reason? They cut down the last
tree
that could be used to make canoes. They lost their ability to fish. The
civilisation that had been at its peak tailed off from there. A remnant
of
Easter Islanders remained but their peak of civilisation was gone.
Generation by generation people lost a little bit but never realised,
each
generation came to believe it had 'always been that way'.

In New Zealand the govt announced for the next 10 years any new
electricity
generation will come from renewable sources, a moratorium on new thermal
generation. Even that modest step has been opposed by environmental
knuckle
draggers. "Why should NZ do anything about global warming if the likes of
the US, China & Australia don't. They pollute more than us." Indeed, why
should Aus or the US or China do anything when NZ isn't. Bury your head
in
the sand, business as usual.

If we all stand around wanking ourselves waiting for the next guy to do
something we may as well consign ourselves to continuing environmental
degredation, increasing ecological problems and social/economic fallout.
We
face enough problems already, heaven knows it boggles my mind
contemplating
the possible ramifications of what is occuring on the globe at the
moment.

Hmmm....
Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate
themselves so their profit/view/neighbourhood/way of life etc etc are not
unduly affected, in effect, condem us all to buggery. I am not that
confident we will address all the problems we have given the best of
intentions, ******s who are not prepared to lift a finger now give me no
hope at all that we will come even close to finding solutions.

rob
If those
"Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate"
They are doing their part. They will not have kids.

You worry too much, your logic is failing.
Try and get some sleep and end this thread.

Well, if it makes anyone feel better. I am doing my part:
I am happily single, have no kids (I just hope they remember to take
those pills), Electric bill always $50 / month, propane $80 / month,
gasoline $150, My garbage will fit inside in a small single grocery
bag (plastic sorry) per week . Comcast triple pay $150,
Books $100 / month ..... Ahhhhhhhhh all of those trees ... Noooooo.

It is not because I care about my environment - It is just my lifestyle.

Just do your own thing. Do not worry about such things as overpopulation
or what others do. It will only make you nuts, if not already. Focus on
life and be happy.

That is all you will hear from me on this subject
Enjoy Life ....... Dan

. . . and no one will miss you when your gone.

I lied
Enjoy Life ...... Dan

--
Email "dan lehr at comcast dot net". Text only or goes to trash automatically.

"George.com" wrote in message
...

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:06:32 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:


"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however.
If
the
human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.

And what has brought on this sudden observation Rob? By that I mean,
has
any specific incident set off this line of thought, or is it just a
sudden
realisation?

Part 3 of a 3 part series "State of the Planet" narrated by David
Attenbrough. Part 1 & 2 were sobering enough. Essentially, there is so
much
going on around the world that is damaging our environment, remedies to
our
problems seem so piecemeal & limited, the changes to our environment
that
I
have seen inside a mere 20 years, all leaves me pessimistic that if we
continue with business as usual we are essentially fkd. 6 billion
people
place a hell of a strain on the planet, 7 or 8 or 9 billion just add
woes
upon woes.

The Easter Islanders once enjoyed a diet rich in sea food. At some
point
sea
food dissappeared from their diet. The reason? They cut down the last
tree
that could be used to make canoes. They lost their ability to fish. The
civilisation that had been at its peak tailed off from there. A remnant
of
Easter Islanders remained but their peak of civilisation was gone.
Generation by generation people lost a little bit but never realised,
each
generation came to believe it had 'always been that way'.

In New Zealand the govt announced for the next 10 years any new
electricity
generation will come from renewable sources, a moratorium on new
thermal
generation. Even that modest step has been opposed by environmental
knuckle
draggers. "Why should NZ do anything about global warming if the likes
of
the US, China & Australia don't. They pollute more than us." Indeed,
why
should Aus or the US or China do anything when NZ isn't. Bury your head
in
the sand, business as usual.

If we all stand around wanking ourselves waiting for the next guy to do
something we may as well consign ourselves to continuing environmental
degredation, increasing ecological problems and social/economic
fallout.
We
face enough problems already, heaven knows it boggles my mind
contemplating
the possible ramifications of what is occuring on the globe at the
moment.
Ecological neanderthals who are content to sit around and masturbate
themselves so their profit/view/neighbourhood/way of life etc etc are
not
unduly affected, in effect, condem us all to buggery. I am not that
confident we will address all the problems we have given the best of
intentions, ******s who are not prepared to lift a finger now give me
no
hope at all that we will come even close to finding solutions.

rob


Well spoken. I completely understand your feelings and thoughts and
agree. I also believe we are effed.

Easter Island is a very good analogy. Many of us do what we can on a
personal level; CFLs, recycle, conserve, try to make green purchases,
drive as little as necessary, etc. ad nauseum, yet those are band aid
approaches, a shifting of the responsibility onto the shoulders of
those of us least able to affect change and save this planet. We rant
and rail and contact those that can do something about it and you see
where it has gotten us. Even more effed.

You can count on my country milking the last penny out of the mess
before they turn off the lights and toss a match to the whole effing
thing. For that I apologize and am ashamed.

Care and g'luck, Rob
Charlie

My wife & I have no kids and don't intend to. We have no vested lineage
interest in making the world better for kids or grandkids. We do have
nieces
& nephews however & I want to hope they have a decent world in which to
live
when they are my age, 36, or even 56 or 76. Should the good Lord allow me
76
years on this earth I shake my head at what it may be like for me in those
distant days. A length of rope over a tree branch may be appealing by
then.

My Nephew will be 50, he deserves the same quality of life and richness of
environment that I enjoy. The way things are going with my generation & my
parents generation, we can't guarantee him that. If nothing else
biodiversity in many places is under threat. In New Zealand there is a
grave
risk we will lose a number of our native species, ones found no where
else.My nephew may get to see them, uncertain his kids will. Our country
has
only be 'civilised' 200 years, we have only a little over 4 million
people.

In the last 20 years alone in this country the water quality in our lakes
and rivers has worsened dramatically in places. We could swim in rivers &
lakes when I was a lad, now its not good for your health in a number of
areas. Thats 25 odd years and 4 million people. Sure, we have reduced the
chemical contaminants in our water ways quite dramatcially. Thats great
news. But, we not have algae bloom in our lakes. Nitrogen spread on farms
50
years ago is moving into the water ways. It may be another 50 years before
the problem subsidies if we take action today to ensure no further leakage
occurs. 50 years is a hell of a wait to clean up but one problem.

Yeah, climate change is a load of BS some tell us. Better hope they are
correct because if they are wrong, and we follow their advice, then we are
shot to buggery. New power stations for the next 10 years from renewable
sources the government is telling us. We have wind, we have geothermal, we
have small hyrdo we can do, we even have tidal & wave when it becomes
economically viable. It may add a little to the cost of power, it may
slightly reduce economic growth. But no, some knuckle draggers want to
continue as we are, more coal more gas. FFS. Some idiots even think
nuclear
is the way to go. We have a good ready supply of renewables, we don't need
nuclear. Moreover, who amongst us is going to be smart enough to plan the
next 5,000 years of nuclear waste. Why burden future generations with that
dilemma when we don't have to.

The Attenborough film just brought home to me the enormity of ecological
degredation that is occurring. We are dealing with pockets of it, and
quite
successfully in some cases, but pockets won't do it. IF NZ sounds like it
is
doing badly, go to Australia. Water IS a primary concern for them. We have
loads in NZ, they are desperate for it. I wouldn't trade our position with
Australia for all the rugby world cups from here until kingdom come.

A point of reference I have is Cuba. We were there earlier this year.
Putting aside the noddies who see the word communist and foam at the
mouth,
the country gives a good picture of what could be for the rest of us. They
were doing quite well under the Societs in the 1970s/80s, things were
trending up. Alot of this was to do with huge subsidies pumped into their
country by the USSR so it was a bit of a fools economy, but it was their
reality. Come the Soviet collapse so to did the Cuban economy. 33% GDP
went
down the gurgler in a process of months, people lost 25% of their calorie
intake (much food was imported from the Eastern Bloc) and trade was wiped
out by over 80% (most of it was with the Eastern Bloc). Oil supplies from
Russia almost dried up and machinery & chemicals ceased. Cuba faced the
great depression perhaps twice over in the space of 1 year or maybe a
little
more.

They have clawed their way back however food security is still an issue.
No
one starves, few have an abundance of grub. Public transport is about 10%
of
what it was in soviet subsidy days. Water is unsanitary to drink in many
areas as something as simple as chlorine went with the soviets. The
sewerage
& water supplies need major overhaul, multiple billions apparently.
Housing
is in a similar state. Only recently has security of power been
guaranteed.
Oil is back thanks to generous subsidies from Venezuela. The Cuban state
continued, people were born and lived and died. Ask any Cuban however if
they enjoyed the 10 years following the Soviet collapse and I bet very few
would answer yes. It is a period most want to forget, and this in a
country
that concentrates on providing the basics of life for all.

Moreover, what has helped Cuba get back on its feet is tourism from the
affluent west. They had a source of tourists they could tap into and a
Venezuela able to supply them with cheap oil. Had no such opportnities
existed the country would be who the hell knows where. Socially, opening
the
country up to tousism has created a dual currency economy. Some thing are
available in local currency, some in tourist currency (24 local pesos to 1
tourist peso). A waiter can earn as much (or more) in tips as a doctor
does.
The social harmony established when things were in equilibrium during
soviet
subsidy days has been shot to buggery. Even as the economy improves social
pressures have come to bear.

Cuba may be a case study what awaits western nations if we fail to avert
dramatic climate change or if peak oil hits us unawares or if we push the
ecology beyond repair. I don't realish raising pigs in my bathroom, or 2
hours to work and back as Cuban people have/do. If we have to, we will.
Humanity will try and struggle on as much it can. Easter Island survived
but
I reckon the impoverished remnant of the civilisation would rather have
had
the 'good times' of their ancestors. The Cubans of the 1980s remember the
good times. The younger Cubans remember the horros of the 1990s.

rob

Apparently 40% of treated water in the US leaks from pipes & never reaches
it destination. At present rate of repair it will take around 900 years to
rectify the problem.

In China it seems 53% of rivers, 50% of lakes & 35% of aquifers are
polluted.

Wonderful stuff.

rob

"George.com" wrote in message
...

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:32:06 +1300, "George.com"
wrote:

Apparently 40% of treated water in the US leaks from pipes & never
reaches
it destination. At present rate of repair it will take around 900 years
to
rectify the problem.

In China it seems 53% of rivers, 50% of lakes & 35% of aquifers are
polluted.

Wonderful stuff.

rob


All you state is true and thanks for the observations on Cuba. Your
water degradation parallels ours, though ours started sooner. Hell,
man, we aren't even supposed to eat the fish out of our rivers in my
part of the world, at least not more than one per week. Children
shouldn't eat any. Yeah, that sounds like healthy fish.

society may collapse in a screaming heap and very quickly our civilised
way
of life screeches to a abrupt halt. I am not sure what the days were like
on
Easter Island following the last tree being felled. It may have been that
way, it may have been a more gradual decline into a lower plain of living.
The latter is what I observed in Cuba, things didn't suddenly and
irreperably fall apart yet the deprivation the populace went through was
significant and real.

I suspect that if we continue as we are, or make piecemeal steps toward
trying to clean up our crap, the environmental constraints we will come up
against will mean society continues along but will face lean times and
tough
times. I may not expect total anarchy but it will get harder. Thats not
just
economy wise with things like rising unemployment, inflation, lower growth
etc. I also imagine things like infrastructure decay, shortages, maybe
rationing & social dislocation.

Cubas experience, whilst by no means absolutely prefiguritive displayed
all
of that. Decaying water, power, transport & housing infrastructure.
Shortages of oil, chemicals, food, basic household commodities &
transport.
Social dislocation did not occur so much perhaps as people moving large
distances as rather a generation growing up in leaner times than those
before (and I have to state that tentatively as this is only a snapshot
observation). The legitemacy of the system previous generations had
accepted, ie consent given by previous generations, because it gave them
security of life was not mirrored automatically by the younger
generations.

That said, if we unknowingly reached a tipping point, the environment may
simply spasm and stop working properly setting loose a plague of plagues
thereby causing massive chaos and casualty. The stuff of Hollywood or
nuclear winter type scenario. I presume Easter Island did not suddenly
become uninhabitable once the last tree was chopped but successive
generations may have had a little less than the ones before. Confitions
and
quality of life went down a little year by year. The eventual outcome foe
Easter Island was apparently internal strife and bloodshed. I am not
suggesting automatically that is the end result for us all. We may become
a
little wiser and learn to live within the means of what we have, live a
negotiated society where things are more rationed and planned. I can't see
the current helter skelter of our existence continuing on however. Maybe I
am better to say "Our Current Mode of Life is screwed".

rob

Some alternative must therefore be necessary if we are heading toward
rooting our current way of life. Permaculture sets out some ways I can
envisage occurring. I guess I see this as an alternative type of approach,
whether we have the mind to achievable it. From wikipedia:

At the heart of permaculture design and practice is a fundamental set of
'core values' or ethics. These 'ethics' are often summarised as;
Earthcare - recognising that the Earth is the source of all life (and is
possibly itself a living entity- see Gaia theory) and that we recognise and
respect that the Earth is our valuable home and we are a part of the Earth,
not apart from it.
Peoplecare - supporting and helping each other to change to ways of living
that are not harming ourselves or the planet, and to develop healthy
societies.
Fairshare (or placing limits on consumption) - ensuring that the Earth's
limited resources are utilised in ways that are equitable and wise.

And weblink permaculture 'map'
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rmamandala.jpg

My vision of Cuba, before I went there, was of a developing country
permaculture. In many ways I guess it is when placed alongside the tests
outlined above.

There is an intense debate happening in NZ at present over housing
affordibility (becoming less and less affordible). Some 'experts' point ot
scarcity of land as fueling costs & advocate unlocking large amounts of land
on the fringes of our cities to drop the market on sections. All good and
fine we may think however I wonder about then people moving their way around
a city, to work, for leisure etc. Our cities do not have great public
transport as our population density is low.

An alternate view is for more intensive city living with compact housing and
multi dwelling sections built around transport hubs, thereby limiting urban
sprawl. If the density goes up the effective costs of per person public
transport goes the opposite way. There are limits however on land so costs
go up.

The former approach is essentially unlock a free market & let the market
decide. Problem is the market is premised on cheap oil and ability to travel
distance. The latter is premised more along pseudo-permaculture lines.
Problem there is cost pricing a section of the populace out of home
ownership. An area for government intervention & assistance maybe.

rob