Sheldon expounded:

Underground you're talking of a "cold frame". a very different concept
from a greenhouse.

cold frame
noun
: a usually glass- or plastic-covered frame without artificial heat
used to protect plants and seedlings outdoors

Try standing up in a cold frame, Sheldon.

A cold frame can cost next to nothing but it's not something one uses
as living space, not even for grown plants.

True, but there are also greenhouses that are dug into the ground to
use the earth's natural insulation. Commonly called a pit greenhouse.
Google away.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

biig wrote:


It would be interesting to know what growing zone you are in and what it
did to your electric bills.....Sharon in Canada, zone5

Northern Illinois, whatever that is.

We just got an electric bill and it looks like about $125 for that
month. However, it is much colder now and we had to add another 1500W
heater to maintain 65F. Interestingly, this is exactly what was
predicted from the nifty calculator I found somewhere on the net.

You plug in the dimensions, material and desired temp and the lowest
outside temp and it came up with 3000 W. Allowing for various outside
temps and sunshine, I now estimate about $200 a month.

I have been arguing with myself and my wife about spending $50 a month
for high speed access and our frugality just says no but no problem with
$200 for a tomato.

We all have our priorities.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com

Ann wrote:

True, but there are also greenhouses that are dug into the ground to
use the earth's natural insulation. Commonly called a pit greenhouse.
Google away.

I will but after setting ours up, I learned that more heat is lost
through the ground than through the glazed exposed surfaces. This seems
hard to believe but thinking about that electric bill, we put down a
double layer of TechFoil and one inch styrofoam sheets. TechFoil is
basically two layers of bubble wrap between two layers of heavy aluminum
foil.

Seems to me if what you say is true, all of this was for naught. I
suppose if you dug it far below the frost line this would help but
nothing down there would be in reach of the Sunlight so I guess I need
to Google.

js



--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com

"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message
...
We have always dreamed of having a green house. This one isn't exactly a
dream come true but it was a place to start.

I have put together a Greenhouse page for more background, pictures and a
place to post futures pictures of our activities therein.

It's obvious that it gives you a lot of pleasure and I can certainly
understand that. Very nice but all that white stuff is enough to make me
appreciate my mere frosty winters.

And the spinning is great. I'm just spinning some dog, alpaca and wool mix.

"Lou Decruss" wrote in message
In your situation I'd
dig down a bit to use the earth as insulation. Sounds like you need
to decide if you want a room or a greenhouse. Either way, attached to
the house is the way to go. I don't and never have had a greenhouse,
but Louise has more gardening books than I have cookbooks. From what
I've read, using the earth is the way to go.

I know of someone who grows grapes in a climate which in Australia is
considered cold (ie heavy frost and too little summer sun to ripen grapes).
He grows them in what he calls 'sun pits'. Basically these are just deep
trenches in the ground on a North facing slope and with some clear roofing
material thown on top. They work - cheap but effective.

"Phisherman" wrote in message

I saw an ingenious greenhouse that was heated with decaying compost
under the floor. Steam continues to pour off the top of our compost
piles year round. I'm sure the "cost" of doing this is maintaining
the compost pile, but it can work well with the proper care.

The old 'pineapple houses' in Britain also used a similar system.

On 12/19/07 2:32 AM, in article
, "FarmI"
ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Phisherman" wrote in message

I saw an ingenious greenhouse that was heated with decaying compost
under the floor. Steam continues to pour off the top of our compost
piles year round. I'm sure the "cost" of doing this is maintaining
the compost pile, but it can work well with the proper care.

The old 'pineapple houses' in Britain also used a similar system.




My grandfather had a "hot house" that was his seed starting area. He'd bring
cow manure (fresh) up to the green house and with kitchen scraps, he'd keep
that place toasty from late January in to March when he would start
spreading most of the fresh stuff in the that year's fallow field.


Cheryl

On 12/18/07 11:08 PM, in article , "Jack
Schmidling" wrote:

biig wrote:


It would be interesting to know what growing zone you are in and what it
did to your electric bills.....Sharon in Canada, zone5

Northern Illinois, whatever that is.

We just got an electric bill and it looks like about $125 for that
month. However, it is much colder now and we had to add another 1500W
heater to maintain 65F. Interestingly, this is exactly what was
predicted from the nifty calculator I found somewhere on the net.

You plug in the dimensions, material and desired temp and the lowest
outside temp and it came up with 3000 W. Allowing for various outside
temps and sunshine, I now estimate about $200 a month.

I have been arguing with myself and my wife about spending $50 a month
for high speed access and our frugality just says no but no problem with
$200 for a tomato.

We all have our priorities.

js


Be wary of going the high speed route - you'll never be able to go back.

C

Jack Schmidling expounded:


Seems to me if what you say is true, all of this was for naught. I
suppose if you dug it far below the frost line this would help but
nothing down there would be in reach of the Sunlight so I guess I need
to Google.

Oh, the Google armark wasn't meant for you, Jack, but yes, it's true,
here are a few links for those interested:

http://www.keppelcroft.com/greenhouses.html

http://winsfordwalledgarden.com/gree...Page=pit_house

http://www.geocities.com/%7Enewliberty/tools.htm
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message
...
biig wrote:


It would be interesting to know what growing zone you are in and what
it
did to your electric bills.....Sharon in Canada, zone5

Northern Illinois, whatever that is.

We just got an electric bill and it looks like about $125 for that
month. However, it is much colder now and we had to add another 1500W
heater to maintain 65F. Interestingly, this is exactly what was
predicted from the nifty calculator I found somewhere on the net.

You plug in the dimensions, material and desired temp and the lowest
outside temp and it came up with 3000 W. Allowing for various outside
temps and sunshine, I now estimate about $200 a month.

I have been arguing with myself and my wife about spending $50 a month
for high speed access and our frugality just says no but no problem with
$200 for a tomato.

We all have our priorities.

I'm not THAT fond of tomatoes....lol... I have a much smaller version
of your first one that I'll use to start things in the spring.
Sharon, on a pension and a tight budget.

Sheldon wrote:

That's why it was so cheap. �The parts are all chinese made, and the
hardware is cheap. �Many times I just toss the hardware in the
recycling bin and use all new.

In this case, it wasn't so simple. Many of the screws are square heads
that fit into slots in the extrusions. There were other odd ball screws
that could not be substituted.

The two problems that plagued us was that even using MM tools, the same
heads and nuts were all different sizes and I had to grind open end
wrenches to fit them all.

There were also many screws that were not completely threaded and if
this was discovered after it was slid into the slot and assembled, it
meant taking the whole assembly apart to replace it.

At all the corners, the nuts bumped into each other so you couldn't
tighten both nuts without making a special wrench.

Peeling the protective wrap from the glazing was a nightmare until we
found that soaking the sheet with paint thinner made it a lot easier
but messier. Not a word about this in the instructions.

Great fun,

js

--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com

On Dec 18, 11:08�pm, Jack Schmidling wrote:
biig wrote:
� �It would be interesting to know what growing zone you are in and what it
did to your electric bills.....Sharon in Canada, zone5

Northern Illinois, whatever that is.

We just got an electric bill and it looks like about $125 for that
month. �However, it is much colder now and we had to add another 1500W
heater to maintain 65F. �Interestingly, this is exactly what was
predicted from the nifty calculator I found somewhere on the net.

You plug in the dimensions, material and desired temp and the lowest
outside temp and it came up with 3000 W. �Allowing for various outside
temps and sunshine, I now estimate about $200 a month.

I have been arguing with myself and my wife about spending $50 a month
for high speed access and our frugality just says no but no problem with
$200 for a tomato.

We all have our priorities.

If you place a desktop PC in your greenhouse you can capture all the
heat it expels.... might just pay for your high speed connection. But
$50/mo seems rather high... here in NY Verizon charges $30 for DSL and
they have an introductory offer of the first three months free, and
with DSL you don't need to pay for an extra phone line. Also with
DSL for a few more dollars you can opt for higher speed, I pay $2/mo
more for almost double speed, the next higher speed (T1 line) is much
higher but so is the cost. These days it's a false economy using dial
up... the only reason to use dial up is if no other option is
available where you live.

On Dec 19, 8:35Â*am, Jack Schmidling wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
That's why it was so cheap. �The parts are all chinese made, and the
hardware is cheap. �Many times I just toss the hardware in the
recycling bin and use all new.

I didn't write that.


In this case, it wasn't so simple. Â*Many of the screws are square heads
that fit into slots in the extrusions. Â*There were other odd ball screws
that could not be substituted.
snip

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 05:35:10 -0800, Jack Schmidling
wrote:

Sheldon wrote:

That's why it was so cheap. ?The parts are all chinese made, and the
hardware is cheap. ?Many times I just toss the hardware in the
recycling bin and use all new.

In this case, it wasn't so simple. Many of the screws are square heads
that fit into slots in the extrusions. There were other odd ball screws
that could not be substituted.

The two problems that plagued us was that even using MM tools, the same
heads and nuts were all different sizes and I had to grind open end
wrenches to fit them all.

There were also many screws that were not completely threaded and if
this was discovered after it was slid into the slot and assembled, it
meant taking the whole assembly apart to replace it.

At all the corners, the nuts bumped into each other so you couldn't
tighten both nuts without making a special wrench.

Peeling the protective wrap from the glazing was a nightmare until we
found that soaking the sheet with paint thinner made it a lot easier
but messier. Not a word about this in the instructions.

Great fun,

js

Sounds like a real pita. But at least now you've got tomatoes g

Lou

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
news
? ?It would be interesting to know what growing zone you are in and what
it
did to your electric bills.....Sharon in Canada, zone5

From the snow, manner of dress, and native flora I'd guess zone 6-7.
As to electric bills their gardening is obviously a hobby, not a
business... no one does recreational gardening to save money. Why do
so many people equate so much in their lives strictly with dollars and
cents... don't yoose ever enjoy anything just for the sake of pleasure
derived.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Because some budgets are not infinite, professor.
Amen, Mr. Sparebedroom. I don't believe Jack's post even mentioned cost or
monetary returns. Do these same "calculating" people haul spreadsheet to
every corner of their gardens to justify the time and cost of esthetic value
and personal fulfillment?
I had a 12 X 26 foot greenhouse when I lived in NW Montana. One end was
connected to the wall of the garage. I heated it with a wood stove, back up
propane heater and had lights (because of long winter nights). I figured it
cost me close to $120 a month to keep it up and running during the winter.
For the pleasure I derived working in my "vacation home", sitting on my
bench potting things up or grooming and fiddling with my plants in my warm,
peaceful greenhouse when the snow was blowing sideways drove away any
thoughts of cost. It was money better spent than one week in Hawaii. Some
things you can't put a price on. I'm sure you and wife will love your
greenhouse, Jack......until you decide you need a bigger one, this is the
only drawback of a greenhouse....no matter what the size, soon it's never
big enough

Val