Hi everyone,

Heard it on the radio today that neem is a great organic pesticide that
can be used against Japanese beetle. I have never heard of neem before and
had to run a small search on the Net. First thing that caught my attention
in the Wikipedia article about neem is that it is only effective against
the pests that actually digest it via the sprayed plant tissue and it
suggests that some bugs (ladybugs for ex), among other insects are pretty
much immune. My greatest interest is in whether or not Japanese beetle
would be affected - we've been hit really hard by them in the past. So,
does anyone in this respectable group have a real life experience using
neem as a pesticide? Could you please post your observations, especially
if they include the japanese beetle?

Where do people buy neem and in what form for garden use, anyways?

Thanks!

D~

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In article ,
(DA) wrote:

Hi everyone,

Heard it on the radio today that neem is a great organic pesticide that
can be used against Japanese beetle. I have never heard of neem before and
had to run a small search on the Net. First thing that caught my attention
in the Wikipedia article about neem is that it is only effective against
the pests that actually digest it via the sprayed plant tissue and it
suggests that some bugs (ladybugs for ex), among other insects are pretty
much immune. My greatest interest is in whether or not Japanese beetle
would be affected - we've been hit really hard by them in the past. So,
does anyone in this respectable group have a real life experience using
neem as a pesticide? Could you please post your observations, especially
if they include the japanese beetle?

Where do people buy neem and in what form for garden use, anyways?

Thanks!

D~


Not useful for Japanese beetles. Here's my article on neem, including the
facts on the phony claim to kill Japanese beetles:
http://www.paghat.com/neemworship.html

Essentially, if you drenched an area with neem on a very regular basis
that made the garden even more unpleasant for humans than for beetles,
you'd kill a small percentage of larvae, none of the breeding adults, and
you MIGHT slightly lower the overall fertility rate. You'd lose more
beneficial insects than harmful, including those that would've kept many
other potential problems in check, so that other garden illnesses will
arise.

Plus you'd get the same effect using any horiticultural oil, there's
nothing special about neem to kill any insect other than by drowning them,
unless an actual pesticide has been added to the oil, which is what some
commercial formulations do (adding pyrethrin or azadirachtin, which kill
lots of beneficial insects, a few harmful ones, not much effect on
Japanese beetles per se).

The only serious organic treatment is bacillus. It has to be used very
narrowly as instructed and it takes three years to work, but once agarden
is thoroughly innoculated, there'll never be japanese beetles there again,
never another need to fight them. So it's worth going the slow but certain
route.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com.html
visit my film reviews webiste:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 23:28:11 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

In article ,
(DA) wrote:

Hi everyone,

Heard it on the radio today that neem is a great organic pesticide that
can be used against Japanese beetle. I have never heard of neem before and
had to run a small search on the Net. First thing that caught my attention
in the Wikipedia article about neem is that it is only effective against
the pests that actually digest it via the sprayed plant tissue and it
suggests that some bugs (ladybugs for ex), among other insects are pretty
much immune. My greatest interest is in whether or not Japanese beetle
would be affected - we've been hit really hard by them in the past. So,
does anyone in this respectable group have a real life experience using
neem as a pesticide? Could you please post your observations, especially
if they include the japanese beetle?

Where do people buy neem and in what form for garden use, anyways?

There are other organic products that specifically target JB, Milky
Spore being the most effective. Apply as directly to the soil and the
MS bacterria attack JB, and only JB, larva. Eliminate the larva and
you eliminate JB adults raised on your property.

There will still be adult JBs fly in from your neighbor's yard but
generally they move into travel mode when looking for mates, not a
meal so little damage ensues from them.

Milky Spore does take a year or two to completely inoculate your soil
but is very effective. I have applied to about 2 acres of yard and
mini-farm and have very little JB problems.

John
Thanks!

D~


Not useful for Japanese beetles. Here's my article on neem, including the
facts on the phony claim to kill Japanese beetles:
http://www.paghat.com/neemworship.html

Essentially, if you drenched an area with neem on a very regular basis
that made the garden even more unpleasant for humans than for beetles,
you'd kill a small percentage of larvae, none of the breeding adults, and
you MIGHT slightly lower the overall fertility rate. You'd lose more
beneficial insects than harmful, including those that would've kept many
other potential problems in check, so that other garden illnesses will
arise.

Plus you'd get the same effect using any horiticultural oil, there's
nothing special about neem to kill any insect other than by drowning them,
unless an actual pesticide has been added to the oil, which is what some
commercial formulations do (adding pyrethrin or azadirachtin, which kill
lots of beneficial insects, a few harmful ones, not much effect on
Japanese beetles per se).

The only serious organic treatment is bacillus. It has to be used very
narrowly as instructed and it takes three years to work, but once agarden
is thoroughly innoculated, there'll never be japanese beetles there again,
never another need to fight them. So it's worth going the slow but certain
route.

-paghat the ratgirl

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 23:28:11 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

In article ,
(DA) wrote:

Hi everyone,

Heard it on the radio today that neem is a great organic pesticide that
can be used against Japanese beetle. I have never heard of neem before and
had to run a small search on the Net. First thing that caught my attention
in the Wikipedia article about neem is that it is only effective against
the pests that actually digest it via the sprayed plant tissue and it
suggests that some bugs (ladybugs for ex), among other insects are pretty
much immune. My greatest interest is in whether or not Japanese beetle
would be affected - we've been hit really hard by them in the past. So,
does anyone in this respectable group have a real life experience using
neem as a pesticide? Could you please post your observations, especially
if they include the japanese beetle?

Where do people buy neem and in what form for garden use, anyways?

There are other organic products that specifically target JB, Milky
Spore being the most effective. Apply as directly to the soil and the
MS bacterria attack JB, and only JB, larva. Eliminate the larva and
you eliminate JB adults raised on your property.

There will still be adult JBs fly in from your neighbor's yard but
generally they move into travel mode when looking for mates, not a
meal so little damage ensues from them.

Milky Spore does take a year or two to completely inoculate your soil
but is very effective. I have applied to about 2 acres of yard and
mini-farm and have very little JB problems.

John
Thanks!

D~


Not useful for Japanese beetles. Here's my article on neem, including the
facts on the phony claim to kill Japanese beetles:
http://www.paghat.com/neemworship.html

Essentially, if you drenched an area with neem on a very regular basis
that made the garden even more unpleasant for humans than for beetles,
you'd kill a small percentage of larvae, none of the breeding adults, and
you MIGHT slightly lower the overall fertility rate. You'd lose more
beneficial insects than harmful, including those that would've kept many
other potential problems in check, so that other garden illnesses will
arise.

Plus you'd get the same effect using any horiticultural oil, there's
nothing special about neem to kill any insect other than by drowning them,
unless an actual pesticide has been added to the oil, which is what some
commercial formulations do (adding pyrethrin or azadirachtin, which kill
lots of beneficial insects, a few harmful ones, not much effect on
Japanese beetles per se).

The only serious organic treatment is bacillus. It has to be used very
narrowly as instructed and it takes three years to work, but once agarden
is thoroughly innoculated, there'll never be japanese beetles there again,
never another need to fight them. So it's worth going the slow but certain
route.

-paghat the ratgirl

John, what is this MS bacillus of which you speak? I am only familiar
with bacillus thuringiensis as an insecticide.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

John, what is this MS bacillus of which you speak? I am
only familiar with bacillus thuringiensis as an
insecticide.

not John, but Milky Spore is Bacillus popillae. Bacillus
thuringiesis is one of a large family where different types
work better on certain insects. Bt kills caterpillers
(unfortunately it's not selective which caterpillers). Bti (Bt
israeliensis) kills mosquito larvae.

lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article
,
Billy wrote:


John, what is this MS bacillus of which you speak? I am only familiar
with bacillus thuringiensis as an insecticide.

Never mind. Google is my friend;-)
Salmonella typhimurium 395 MS.

--
Bush Behind Bars

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

In article ,
enigma wrote:

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

John, what is this MS bacillus of which you speak? I am
only familiar with bacillus thuringiensis as an
insecticide.

not John, but Milky Spore is Bacillus popillae. Bacillus
thuringiesis is one of a large family where different types
work better on certain insects. Bt kills caterpillers
(unfortunately it's not selective which caterpillers). Bti (Bt
israeliensis) kills mosquito larvae.

lee

Thanks Lee.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

enigma wrote:

not John, but Milky Spore is Bacillus popillae. Bacillus
thuringiesis is one of a large family where different types
work better on certain insects. Bt kills caterpillers
(unfortunately it's not selective which caterpillers). Bti (Bt
israeliensis) kills mosquito larvae.

lee

Thank you for your responses, guys. I am sure glad I have asked the
question here. The guy on the radio sounded very convincing it would have
worked and I would have wasted time and money.

Anyways, I am getting a sense that getting rid of japanese beetle and
instant gratification are not to be used in one sentence. Still, I guess,
I am not really grasping the concept of trying to kill grubs of a beetle
that can fly. What exactly would prevent them to fly over from some nearby
property? I think this is exactly what happened he until we planted
roses, there were no JBs to speak of. Then they simply gathered for the
treat and decided to stay...

Anyways, are the claims of getting rid of JB for good based on the
assumption that spores stay in the ground once introduced and will kill
the next spring's grubs, too?

Thanks for your comment, guys, keep them coming. I think I am on the right
track to at least keeping JB infestation in check if not getting rid of
them completely.

D~



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Gardening Online Community
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rec.gardens - 31466 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

On Mar 9, 4:10 pm, enigma wrote:
Billy wrote
ct.net.au:

John, what is this MS bacillus of which you speak? I am
only familiar with bacillus thuringiensis as an
insecticide.

not John, but Milky Spore is Bacillus popillae. Bacillus
thuringiesis is one of a large family where different types
work better on certain insects. Bt kills caterpillers
(unfortunately it's not selective which caterpillers). Bti (Bt
israeliensis) kills mosquito larvae.

BtI is also recommended against fungus gnat larvae.

In article
,
Father Haskell wrote:

On Mar 9, 4:10 pm, enigma wrote:
Billy wrote

ct.net.au:

John, what is this MS bacillus of which you speak? I am
only familiar with bacillus thuringiensis as an
insecticide.

not John, but Milky Spore is Bacillus popillae. Bacillus
thuringiesis is one of a large family where different types
work better on certain insects. Bt kills caterpillers
(unfortunately it's not selective which caterpillers). Bti (Bt
israeliensis) kills mosquito larvae.

BtI is also recommended against fungus gnat larvae.

Bacillus thuringiensis var. israelensis (not zionistis), sold under the
trade name of Gnatrol, is most effective against the young first instar
larvae.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article ,
(DA) wrote:

enigma wrote:

not John, but Milky Spore is Bacillus popillae. Bacillus
thuringiesis is one of a large family where different types
work better on certain insects. Bt kills caterpillers
(unfortunately it's not selective which caterpillers). Bti (Bt
israeliensis) kills mosquito larvae.

lee

Thank you for your responses, guys. I am sure glad I have asked the
question here. The guy on the radio sounded very convincing it would have
worked and I would have wasted time and money.

Anyways, I am getting a sense that getting rid of japanese beetle and
instant gratification are not to be used in one sentence. Still, I guess,
I am not really grasping the concept of trying to kill grubs of a beetle
that can fly. What exactly would prevent them to fly over from some nearby
property? I think this is exactly what happened he until we planted
roses, there were no JBs to speak of. Then they simply gathered for the
treat and decided to stay...

Anyways, are the claims of getting rid of JB for good based on the
assumption that spores stay in the ground once introduced and will kill
the next spring's grubs, too?

Thanks for your comment, guys, keep them coming. I think I am on the right
track to at least keeping JB infestation in check if not getting rid of
them completely.

D~
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/IPM/greenh.../fngnatser.htm

Bacillus thuringiensis var. israelensis, sold under the trade name of
Gnatrol, is most effective against the young first instar larvae. The
bacteria must be ingested by the larva, after which a toxic protein
crystal is released into the insect's gut. Larvae stop feeding and die.
Gnatrol is only toxic to larvae for two days. Repeat applications, i.e.
two or three applications at high rates, may be needed to provide
effective control.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/IPM/greenh.../fngnatser.htm

how'd we get to fuhgus gnats from Japanese beetles?

Bacillus thuringiensis var. israelensis, sold under the
trade name of Gnatrol, is most effective against the young
first instar larvae. The bacteria must be ingested by the
larva, after which a toxic protein crystal is released into
the insect's gut. Larvae stop feeding and die. Gnatrol is
only toxic to larvae for two days. Repeat applications,
i.e. two or three applications at high rates, may be needed
to provide effective control.

well, i'll keep this in mind for when i get a greenhouse.
we currently use Bti in mosquito dunks in the stock tanks.
supposedly they kill blackfly larvae as well as mosquito
larvae, but i don't know that i quite believe that claim.
blackflies breed in running water, not standing water, so how
would one make sure they're exposed to the Bti?
at any rate, i'm hoping this doesn't confuse the OP because
Milky Spore (which is not Bti), once you get it into the soil,
kills the Japanese beetle larvae for 10+ years before you need
to reapply. if i was the OP & thought i'd just learned that
Milky Spore only lasts a few weeks, then saw that a 50 pound
drum costs $1300... i'd give up right there! but if you
consider that that 50 pound drum covers over 5 acres &
protects for over 10 *years*, it's actually very reasonable.
BTW, it also kills the larvae of Oriental beetles, which are
even *nastier* than Japanese beetles. they eat the leaves off
your plants during the day & at night they burrow under the
plants & eat the roots.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article ,
enigma wrote:

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/IPM/greenh.../fngnatser.htm

how'd we get to fuhgus gnats from Japanese beetles?

Bacillus thuringiensis var. israelensis, sold under the
trade name of Gnatrol, is most effective against the young
first instar larvae. The bacteria must be ingested by the
larva, after which a toxic protein crystal is released into
the insect's gut. Larvae stop feeding and die. Gnatrol is
only toxic to larvae for two days. Repeat applications,
i.e. two or three applications at high rates, may be needed
to provide effective control.

well, i'll keep this in mind for when i get a greenhouse.
we currently use Bti in mosquito dunks in the stock tanks.
supposedly they kill blackfly larvae as well as mosquito
larvae, but i don't know that i quite believe that claim.
blackflies breed in running water, not standing water, so how
would one make sure they're exposed to the Bti?
at any rate, i'm hoping this doesn't confuse the OP because
Milky Spore (which is not Bti), once you get it into the soil,
kills the Japanese beetle larvae for 10+ years before you need
to reapply. if i was the OP & thought i'd just learned that
Milky Spore only lasts a few weeks, then saw that a 50 pound
drum costs $1300... i'd give up right there! but if you
consider that that 50 pound drum covers over 5 acres &
protects for over 10 *years*, it's actually very reasonable.
BTW, it also kills the larvae of Oriental beetles, which are
even *nastier* than Japanese beetles. they eat the leaves off
your plants during the day & at night they burrow under the
plants & eat the roots.
lee

Going just a tad OT, can you recommend any introductory book for
spinning and weaving?
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

Going just a tad OT, can you recommend any introductory
book for spinning and weaving?

i took a class, but i've been usingTeach Yourself Visually:
Handspinning by Judith MacKenzie McCuin.
it covers both hand spindles & wheels.
hint: if you decide to start with a hand spindle, get one
that has a bit of weight but not too heavy.
what type of weaving are you interested in? loom? tapestry?
fingerweaving (sometimes called braids)? inkle loom? i can
give you better suggestions if i know what you want to do.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article
,
Billy wrote:

Going just a tad OT, can you recommend any introductory book for
spinning and weaving?

Jeff Herton's book will help:
http://www.readerviews.com/InterviewHerten.html

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com.html
visit my film reviews webiste:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com