Hello,

I don’t even know if you can do what I want to do. I have a birch tree
that is dying. I knew they were short-lived trees whenever I planted
it over 20 years ago. It is on my hillside and I have chicken wire on
the hill helping hold the mulch on it since it is pretty steep, so I
have a mess on my hands.

The tree is about 20-feet tall now. It is a clump birch with three
trunks. Each trunk is about the size of, say, a softball or smaller.

I believe I can cut it down and get a fair amount of roots out. If I
wait a few years, can I plant in exactly the same spot? Or would I be
forced to move 6-8 feet away? If it is the latter, I simply cannot do
it. Could I plant anything in the same hole? A tall bush or something,
at least? The tree helped shade my deck plus I sort of “need” the
height, if you know what I mean…

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
ray

busbus wrote:
Hello,

I don’t even know if you can do what I want to do. I have a birch tree
that is dying. I knew they were short-lived trees whenever I planted
it over 20 years ago. It is on my hillside and I have chicken wire on
the hill helping hold the mulch on it since it is pretty steep, so I
have a mess on my hands.

The tree is about 20-feet tall now. It is a clump birch with three
trunks. Each trunk is about the size of, say, a softball or smaller.

I believe I can cut it down and get a fair amount of roots out. If I
wait a few years, can I plant in exactly the same spot? Or would I be
forced to move 6-8 feet away? If it is the latter, I simply cannot do
it. Could I plant anything in the same hole? A tall bush or something,
at least? The tree helped shade my deck plus I sort of “need” the
height, if you know what I mean…

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
ray
Ray,

Do you know why it is dying? Birch trees can live beyond 20 years.

If it is a birch borer, there are ways to treat that.

It's a shame to cut down a mature tree and I like clump birches,
especially the river variety.

If the tree is really dying of old age, there should be no concern
about planting something else. To be on the safe side, I would remove
a good deal of soil from around the removed tree and replace it.

Sherwin

busbus wrote:

I don’t even know if you can do what I want to do. I have a birch tree
that is dying. I knew they were short-lived trees whenever I planted
it over 20 years ago. It is on my hillside and I have chicken wire on
the hill helping hold the mulch on it since it is pretty steep, so I
have a mess on my hands.

The tree is about 20-feet tall now. It is a clump birch with three
trunks. Each trunk is about the size of, say, a softball or smaller.

I believe I can cut it down and get a fair amount of roots out. If I
wait a few years, can I plant in exactly the same spot? Or would I be
forced to move 6-8 feet away? If it is the latter, I simply cannot do
it. Could I plant anything in the same hole? A tall bush or something,
at least? The tree helped shade my deck plus I sort of “need” the
height, if you know what I mean…

Any suggestions would be appreciated.



Birch trees can live 100 years and more. But birch requires fairly strict
growing conditions, they are not tolerant of excessively dry or excessively
wet locations. With excessively dry or wet conditions birch tend to die
from the top down... if dying from the bottom up or equally all over than
I'd suspect some disease. That yours is on a steep grade (rather than a
low/level area) I suspect quick run off during rainy periods and therefore a
lack of water... birch require deep watering and especially as they become
more mature. Birch do best growing close to streams and lakes and in well
irrigated meadows as they require fairly rich and deep soils... if your soil
is sandy and/or drains rapidly then it is not a good spot for birch, it
would be rare indeed to find a stand of birch growing on hillsides. It
would be a shame to kill a birch of that size if it's not sick, I would have
a plant nursery check it out and perhaps move it to a more appropriate spot,
or they may take it in trade for a more appropriate tree. Not knowing where
you are located I can't recommend an alternative, but I will say that large
shade trees generally do not do well on steep grades, and birch are more a
specimen/accent tree, they grow tall and columnar without much spread and
don't have dense foilage so they are not considered a shade tree.

On 7/18/2009 5:45 PM, busbus wrote:
Hello,

I don’t even know if you can do what I want to do. I have a birch tree
that is dying. I knew they were short-lived trees whenever I planted
it over 20 years ago. It is on my hillside and I have chicken wire on
the hill helping hold the mulch on it since it is pretty steep, so I
have a mess on my hands.

The tree is about 20-feet tall now. It is a clump birch with three
trunks. Each trunk is about the size of, say, a softball or smaller.

I believe I can cut it down and get a fair amount of roots out. If I
wait a few years, can I plant in exactly the same spot? Or would I be
forced to move 6-8 feet away? If it is the latter, I simply cannot do
it. Could I plant anything in the same hole? A tall bush or something,
at least? The tree helped shade my deck plus I sort of “need” the
height, if you know what I mean…

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
ray

This is a question for your local nursery or arborist. It depends on
the type of tree and why it died.

I know that a peach tree can be planted where an old peach tree has been
removed. Peaches are indeed relatively short-lived. In commercial
peach orchards, it's not unusual to remove all the trees after about 15
years. I had one removed after about 17 years. The tree service ground
out the stump. That was in the fall. The following spring, I planted a
new peach in the exact same spot. This fall (about 20 years later),
I'll have the second one removed and plant a third one there.

On the other hand, I believe that an oak should not be planted where a
previous oak had been removed. That is because a dying oak develops
root fungus that can afflict a new oak.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Welcome to Garden-Planters,
It's a shame to cut down a mature tree and I like clump birches,
especially the river variety.
On the other hand, I believe that an oak should not be planted where a
previous oak had been removed. That is because a dying oak develops
root fungus that can afflict a new oak.

"David E. Ross" wrote in message
et...
On 7/18/2009 5:45 PM, busbus wrote:
Hello,

I don’t even know if you can do what I want to do. I have a birch tree
that is dying. I knew they were short-lived trees whenever I planted
it over 20 years ago. It is on my hillside and I have chicken wire on
the hill helping hold the mulch on it since it is pretty steep, so I
have a mess on my hands.

The tree is about 20-feet tall now. It is a clump birch with three
trunks. Each trunk is about the size of, say, a softball or smaller.

I believe I can cut it down and get a fair amount of roots out. If I
wait a few years, can I plant in exactly the same spot? Or would I be
forced to move 6-8 feet away? If it is the latter, I simply cannot do
it. Could I plant anything in the same hole? A tall bush or something,
at least? The tree helped shade my deck plus I sort of “need” the
height, if you know what I mean…

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
ray

This is a question for your local nursery or arborist. It depends on
the type of tree and why it died.

I know that a peach tree can be planted where an old peach tree has been
removed. Peaches are indeed relatively short-lived. In commercial
peach orchards, it's not unusual to remove all the trees after about 15
years. I had one removed after about 17 years. The tree service ground
out the stump. That was in the fall. The following spring, I planted a
new peach in the exact same spot. This fall (about 20 years later),
I'll have the second one removed and plant a third one there.

On the other hand, I believe that an oak should not be planted where a
previous oak had been removed. That is because a dying oak develops
root fungus that can afflict a new oak.


Isn't there some issue about the old tree's roots? When you remove a tree
and grind the stump, you leave the old root system behind. This takes
several rears to rot, which then leaves a void in the soil. If you replant
on top where the old stump was wont the new planting collapse into the void
as the old roots rot?

Jon

On 7/20/2009 7:07 AM, Zeppo wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message
et...
On 7/18/2009 5:45 PM, busbus wrote:
Hello,

I don’t even know if you can do what I want to do. I have a birch tree
that is dying. I knew they were short-lived trees whenever I planted
it over 20 years ago. It is on my hillside and I have chicken wire on
the hill helping hold the mulch on it since it is pretty steep, so I
have a mess on my hands.

The tree is about 20-feet tall now. It is a clump birch with three
trunks. Each trunk is about the size of, say, a softball or smaller.

I believe I can cut it down and get a fair amount of roots out. If I
wait a few years, can I plant in exactly the same spot? Or would I be
forced to move 6-8 feet away? If it is the latter, I simply cannot do
it. Could I plant anything in the same hole? A tall bush or something,
at least? The tree helped shade my deck plus I sort of “need” the
height, if you know what I mean…

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
ray
This is a question for your local nursery or arborist. It depends on
the type of tree and why it died.

I know that a peach tree can be planted where an old peach tree has been
removed. Peaches are indeed relatively short-lived. In commercial
peach orchards, it's not unusual to remove all the trees after about 15
years. I had one removed after about 17 years. The tree service ground
out the stump. That was in the fall. The following spring, I planted a
new peach in the exact same spot. This fall (about 20 years later),
I'll have the second one removed and plant a third one there.

On the other hand, I believe that an oak should not be planted where a
previous oak had been removed. That is because a dying oak develops
root fungus that can afflict a new oak.


Isn't there some issue about the old tree's roots? When you remove a tree
and grind the stump, you leave the old root system behind. This takes
several rears to rot, which then leaves a void in the soil. If you replant
on top where the old stump was wont the new planting collapse into the void
as the old roots rot?

Jon



Depending on how old the old tree was and how fast the new tree grows,
this might not be a problem. As roots from an old peach tree decompose,
roots from the new tree replace them in the soil.

When I have a tree removed and the stump ground out, I have the tree
service leave much of the resulting wood chips. These become organic
matter to improve the soil. Only if the tree was diseased (not merely
old past its prime) do I have all debris removed so as not to spread
disease.

In some areas of my garden, roots from other trees have raised the soil.
If I were to remove those trees, the soil would then return to its
original level.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"Zeppo" wrote in message
...

"David E. Ross" wrote in message
et...
On 7/18/2009 5:45 PM, busbus wrote:
Hello,

I don't even know if you can do what I want to do. I have a birch tree
that is dying. I knew they were short-lived trees whenever I planted
it over 20 years ago. It is on my hillside and I have chicken wire on
the hill helping hold the mulch on it since it is pretty steep, so I
have a mess on my hands.

The tree is about 20-feet tall now. It is a clump birch with three
trunks. Each trunk is about the size of, say, a softball or smaller.

I believe I can cut it down and get a fair amount of roots out. If I
wait a few years, can I plant in exactly the same spot? Or would I be
forced to move 6-8 feet away? If it is the latter, I simply cannot do
it. Could I plant anything in the same hole? A tall bush or something,
at least? The tree helped shade my deck plus I sort of "need" the
height, if you know what I mean.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
ray

This is a question for your local nursery or arborist. It depends on
the type of tree and why it died.

I know that a peach tree can be planted where an old peach tree has been
removed. Peaches are indeed relatively short-lived. In commercial
peach orchards, it's not unusual to remove all the trees after about 15
years. I had one removed after about 17 years. The tree service ground
out the stump. That was in the fall. The following spring, I planted a
new peach in the exact same spot. This fall (about 20 years later),
I'll have the second one removed and plant a third one there.

On the other hand, I believe that an oak should not be planted where a
previous oak had been removed. That is because a dying oak develops
root fungus that can afflict a new oak.


Isn't there some issue about the old tree's roots? When you remove a tree
and grind the stump, you leave the old root system behind. This takes
several rears to rot, which then leaves a void in the soil. If you replant
on top where the old stump was wont the new planting collapse into the
void as the old roots rot?



With a tree that type and size it never occured to me not to dig out that
stump... a hole would need to be dug for the new tree anyway so may as well
put the effort into digging out the stump... and then a new tree would need
a hole at least that size anyway, with a yard or two of rich topsoil mixed
in. Another thing to consider when planting a teee near ones house is how
large the tree will become, I'd not plant any tree near my house that if it
fell in a storm could damage my house... measure the distance to the house
and then don't plant a tree that will become taller than that distance, you
don't want to shade your house roof either, it will rot. I couldn't sleep
at night knowing there was a 40' maple 20' from my bedroom. I'd not want a
shade tree over my deck either, it will cause the deck to rot... use an
umbrella/awning instead.

This brings up another question....

I have this feeling there is some sort of borer in the tree because I
see fine sawdust at the base of one of the trunks. I cannot find a
hole anyplace but there has to be if there is sawdust.

if I chop all three trunks down tot he ground, do y ou think I could
get a few suckers to grow? Would those suckers be decent looking
trees? Or am I just having a pipe dream??

"busbus" wrote:

This brings up another question....

"This" what?

I have this feeling there is some sort of borer in the tree because I
see fine sawdust at the base of one of the trunks. I cannot find a
hole anyplace but there has to be if there is sawdust.

if I chop all three trunks down tot he ground, do y ou think I could
get a few suckers to grow? Would those suckers be decent looking
trees? Or am I just having a pipe dream??

It's not likely that a "borer" will directly cause a tree to die, at most it
will cause a weakness for decay to take a foothold, but that could take many
years and that kind of damage is almost always easily repairable. When you
say your tree is "dying" you've given no description of what causes you to
say that... and you still haven't said where you're located nor have you
posted pictures of your tree... until you do so all anyone can offer you is
wild speculation.

It's not likely that a "borer" will directly cause a tree to die, at most it
will cause a weakness for decay to take a foothold, but that could take many
years and that kind of damage is almost always easily repairable. *When you
say your tree is "dying" you've given no description of what causes you to
say that... and you still haven't said where you're located nor have you
posted pictures of your tree... until you do so all anyone can offer you is
wild speculation.

Okay, I do not have a digital camera, so I cannot post a picture.

I live in Pittsburgh, PA.

The clump has three trunks. I constantly check for leaf miners as I
had troubles with those for many years but there have been no signs in
my two trees in about 4-5 years, thankfully. One day, the trunk
farthest to the right looked like it was wilting, with the lower
branches showing some yellow leaves but the entire thing looking like
it was wilting--from top to bottom. No place looked better or worse.
Then, within two days, the entire trunk was D-E-A-D. The leaves were
brown and, well, dead. But the other two trunks looked perfectly
fine.

I was going to cut the dead trunk down over this past weekend when I
noticed BOTH the other trunks showing the same signs: some yellowing
of the leaves on the lower branches and every leaf on the tree
wilting.

I cut a piece of a lower branch off and noticed the long hickey-doo
that holds the seeds(?) was all dry (I am sorry, I do not know the
name of this thing). I do not think this thing should be dry until
the fall.

Now, we are having a drought this year and it has been quite cool all
summer. In fact, we are about four inches below normal in rainfall.
BUT...I live on an old farm homestead and where this tree is planted
run five underground springs that always have some water running
through them. (In fact, whenever I added an addition onto the house
12 years ago, we were in a worst drought than we are experiencing now
and I broke ground the last week of July. All five springs were
pouring water out so fast that there was almost four feet of water in
a 15x25 hole overnight.)

So, I don't suspect lack of water BUT the tree seems like it is
exhibiting drought damage and shutting itself down to save itself. I
saw the sawdust afterwards and thought maybe the borers have been in
it foe a while and was clogging up the veins of the tree. (Do trees
have veins? What are the things called that carry sap and water
throughout the trees??) I thought maybe that is where the borers
larva live? And they were blocking the arteries like cholesterol
blocks our arteries and kills us.

That is about the best that I can describe what is happening.

"busbus" wrote in message
...
It's not likely that a "borer" will directly cause a tree to die, at most
it
will cause a weakness for decay to take a foothold, but that could take
many
years and that kind of damage is almost always easily repairable. When you
say your tree is "dying" you've given no description of what causes you to
say that... and you still haven't said where you're located nor have you
posted pictures of your tree... until you do so all anyone can offer you
is
wild speculation.

Okay, I do not have a digital camera, so I cannot post a picture.

I live in Pittsburgh, PA.

The clump has three trunks. I constantly check for leaf miners as I
had troubles with those for many years but there have been no signs in
my two trees in about 4-5 years, thankfully. One day, the trunk
farthest to the right looked like it was wilting, with the lower
branches showing some yellow leaves but the entire thing looking like
it was wilting--from top to bottom. No place looked better or worse.
Then, within two days, the entire trunk was D-E-A-D. The leaves were
brown and, well, dead. But the other two trunks looked perfectly
fine.

I was going to cut the dead trunk down over this past weekend when I
noticed BOTH the other trunks showing the same signs: some yellowing
of the leaves on the lower branches and every leaf on the tree
wilting.

I cut a piece of a lower branch off and noticed the long hickey-doo
that holds the seeds(?) was all dry (I am sorry, I do not know the
name of this thing). I do not think this thing should be dry until
the fall.

Now, we are having a drought this year and it has been quite cool all
summer. In fact, we are about four inches below normal in rainfall.
BUT...I live on an old farm homestead and where this tree is planted
run five underground springs that always have some water running
through them. (In fact, whenever I added an addition onto the house
12 years ago, we were in a worst drought than we are experiencing now
and I broke ground the last week of July. All five springs were
pouring water out so fast that there was almost four feet of water in
a 15x25 hole overnight.)

So, I don't suspect lack of water BUT the tree seems like it is
exhibiting drought damage and shutting itself down to save itself. I
saw the sawdust afterwards and thought maybe the borers have been in
it foe a while and was clogging up the veins of the tree. (Do trees
have veins? What are the things called that carry sap and water
throughout the trees??) I thought maybe that is where the borers
larva live? And they were blocking the arteries like cholesterol
blocks our arteries and kills us.

That is about the best that I can describe what is happening.

===========

Bits of sawdust at the base of a tree can just as easily mean woodpeckers,
because of their thin bark woodpeckers love birch trees. You might want to
check carefully with binoculars for signs of woodpeckers... typically bands
of holes in a shallow arch.

And just because there are nearby springs doesn't mean your tree is
receiving water. I would suggest you pound in a seris of deep holes at the
drip line with a piece of rebar, then set one of those whirly sprinklers
under the tree running all night on low. You'll get a good sense of the
soil condition and whether there's sufficient water in that spot when
driving the holes. If the soil there is dry, which I suspect, you've solved
your problem. Some folks dig like 3-4 holes equidistant about the drip line
that will accomodate 3' lengths of 4" perforated PVC pipe, then regularly
set the sprinkler running until it fills those pipes with water.

I wouldn't harm your tree until you've given it a fair chance to recover
with deep watering (and an occasional weak shot of water soluable
fertilizer). I'd wait until next spring to see if there is improvement...
this has been a tough year for plants, especially trees, in the north east.
We had a very premature hot spell so plants budded out and even flowered
before the pollenators awoke, and then there was a hard freeze that damaged
that new growth. On top of that the rain has been relentless, nights have
been cold, and days cooler than normal too. My beech trees and gingkos were
damaged, rhododendums as well,
and my vegetable garden has totally drowned, I doubt there will be anything
to harvest... I don't think there has been a 24 hour period here in the
Catskills since early spring without rain, in fact it is pouring right now.

And even though you may have had excessive rain that doesn't mean it
penetrated to your tree's roots, especially not on a steep grade. If by
late next spring your tree is in worse condition then it is time to think
about a replacement. Conifers usually do better on hillsides, and they do
offer hours of morning/afternoon shade when they block the sun, plus they
offer year round privacy, and are
especially attractive when planted in interesting groupings. Like I said
earlier, I don't recommend large shade trees near houses/decks. And some
folks prefer planting a deck with vining plants on a trellis for shade... if
your spot is in full sun grapes would do well.
..

Hi,brooklyn1
Now, we are having a drought this year and it has been quite cool all
summer. In fact, we are about four inches below normal in rainfall.
BUT...I live on an old farm homestead and where this tree is planted
run five underground springs that always have some water running
through them. (In fact, whenever I added an addition onto the house
12 years ago, we were in a worst drought than we are experiencing now
and I broke ground the last week of July. All five springs were
pouring water out so fast that there was almost four feet of water in
a 15x25 hole overnight.)

Plant in same spot no problem once the tree is gone replace with plant or tree if you have some fertiliser to dig in to the spot all the better.