On 2/19/2010 10:34 AM, John McGaw wrote:
After many attempts at eradicating it I've determined that the English
Ivy (which is attempting to swallow the wooded area in front of my house
and acting like kudzu) is pretty much immune to Roundup, even when mixed
to the "brush killer" strength. The waxy cuticle on the leaves seems to
prevent them from taking up the glyphosate and even adding a wetting
agent to the spray doesn't seem to make it work much better.

I've had luck mowing (string trimmer works quick) the ivy first, then
applying the roundup to the new growth. The new leaves seem to be less
"waxy", and are easier to attack.

Of course, this is a process I have to repeat 3 or 4 times before the
ivy will actually give up.

On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:22:13 -0800 (PST), troyc
wrote:

On Feb 19, 4:11*pm, brooklyn1 wrote:
troyc wrote:


Make sure you get clean straw (straw can be full ofweeds& seeds),

There are seeds in the ground naturally, with new seeds added to the
mix constantly, naturally, from many sources, by many means, by wind,
bird excrement, etc. *What one needs to grasp is that the straw will
deter germination/propagation of most seeds, even its own seeds, while
giving the ground cover plants time to take hold. *

It will only deter germination on seeds which are at the bottom of the
pile, most of which will be. However, trust me, I have seen people
increase their weed issues with dirty straw.

Once ground cover
begins to propogate it takes care of whatever fewweedsescape...
certain plants are called ground cover for a reason, thier growth
habit surpasses competition. *A secondary purpose of ground cover
could be to deter erosion but primarily to ensure that no other plants
compete, which is why it's important to choose the correct ground
cover for the locale... often folks indescriminately choose a ground
cover because they think it's handsome but if it can't compete with
native plants it would not become a sucessful ground cover.

Yes, quite correct.


and don't work it in to the soil - lay it on top. *Straw worked in to
the soil will rob nitrogen for a time as it decays.

That's what I said, why would someone work straw into the soil when
it's purpose is a mulch? * The concept of using straw as a mulch as
averse to a more sturdy mulching material, is that it will decompose
at about the same rate a ground cover grows.
Didn't you read and undertand what I wrote?

I understood it perfectly - no need to be snotty about it. We're
having a reasonable discussion here.

I wrote that as a caution, because *I've seen people do it* (and stunt
their plants in the process). They do it because they think if they
work a load of straw in next to their plants it will deter weeds and
provide nutrients in the process - not realizing the high C:N ratio
will tie up nitrogen for awhile. My reply was a caution to the person
who who was asking the original question in the thread. Chill out.

You're being snotty, and rude. If your reply was meant for the OP
then that's to whom you should have replied, and in a timely fashion.
Actually you added nothing, you attempted to credit yourself by
hijacking my suggestions, you are also smarmy.

On Feb 19, 5:36*pm, brooklyn1 wrote:


You're being snotty, and rude. *If your reply was meant for the OP
then that's to whom you should have replied, and in a timely fashion.
Actually you added nothing, you attempted to credit yourself by
hijacking my suggestions, you are also smarmy

Wow.

Suit yourself. Have a nice day.

On 2/19/2010 10:34 AM, John McGaw wrote:
On 2/18/2010 6:43 PM, JRStern wrote:
Are there any ground covers that are compatible with (not killed by)
Roundup?

We have some bare areas, (idiot) gardner has always just sprayed
Roundup there. I didn't even realize that's what he was doing, until
recently.

So, maybe I can try some ground covers, creeping thyme, red clover,
seedum, maybe some mosses. Are any of these more or less compatible
with Roundup in between or nearby, or even right on top?

Thanx.

J.


After many attempts at eradicating it I've determined that the English Ivy
(which is attempting to swallow the wooded area in front of my house and
acting like kudzu) is pretty much immune to Roundup, even when mixed to the
"brush killer" strength. The waxy cuticle on the leaves seems to prevent
them from taking up the glyphosate and even adding a wetting agent to the
spray doesn't seem to make it work much better.

I add liquid soap to almost any spray I use. This is an excellent
wetting agent, even on waxy or fuzzy leaves.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

david wrote:
John McGaw wrote:

After many attempts at eradicating it I've determined that the English
Ivy (which is attempting to swallow the wooded area in front of my house
and acting like kudzu) is pretty much immune to Roundup, even when mixed
to the "brush killer" strength. The waxy cuticle on the leaves seems to
prevent them from taking up the glyphosate and even adding a wetting
agent to the spray doesn't seem to make it work much better.

I've had luck mowing (string trimmer works quick) the ivy first, then
applying the roundup to the new growth. The new leaves seem to be less
"waxy", and are easier to attack.

Of course, this is a process I have to repeat 3 or 4 times before the
ivy will actually give up.

I've found that Roundup works much better on a hot sunny day.

In article
,
troyc wrote:

On Feb 19, 10:30*am, JRStern wrote:
On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:03:29 -0800 (PST), troyc
wrote:

There are no ground covers which will survive a glyphosate (Roundup's
active ingredient) application. *IfRoundupis sprayed near plants and
applied properly, it will not drift and your plants should be fine.
As far as planting in soil which has been sprayed with glyphosate, it
can be done almost immediately as there are no residual effects.

OK, thanks.

I should probably have the gardener put in the ground cover, he'll
maybe be more responsible about it that way.

J.

grin I suspect that will help! :-) Good luck with your garden!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate#Toxicity

Toxicity
Glyphosate is rated least dangerous in comparison to other herbicides
and pesticides, such as those from the organochlorine family.[33]
Roundup has a United States Environmental Protection Agency? (EPA)
Toxicity Class of III for oral and inhalation exposure.[34] It has been
rated as class I (Severe) for eye irritation.

A recent study, on the other hand, has shown that Roundup formulations
and metabolic products cause the death of human embryonic, placental,
and umbilical cells in vitro even at low concentrations. The effects are
not proportional to Glyphosate concentrations but dependent on the
nature of the adjuvants used in the formulation.[35]
[edit]

Humans
Glyphosate has a United States Environmental Protection Agency? Toxicity
Class of III in 1993,[34] . It has been rated as class I (Severe) for
eye irritation. Glyphosate is being evaluated for effects to unborn
fetuses and their development. It is currently on the USEPA Endocrine
Disrupter Screening list, published in 2007.[36][37]

Outside its intended use, glyphosate can be lethal. For example, with
intentional poisonings there is approximately a 10% mortality for those
ingesting glyphosate, compared to 70% for those ingesting paraquat.[38]
Laboratory toxicology studies suggest that other ingredients combined
with glyphosate may have greater toxicity than glyphosate alone. For
example, a study comparing glyphosate and Roundup found that Roundup had
a greater effect on aromatase than glyphosate alone.[9]

Statistics from the California Environmental Protection Agency's
Pesticide Illness Surveillance Program indicate that glyphosate-related
incidents are one of the highest reported of all pesticides.[39][40]
However, incident count does not take into account the number of people
exposed and the severity of symptoms associated with each incident.[40]
For example, if hospitalization were used as a measure of the severity
of pesticide related incidents, then glyphosate would be considered
relatively safe, since, over a 13 year period in California, none of the
515 pesticide-related hospitalizations recorded were attributed to
glyphosate.[40]

Greenpeace states that the acute human toxicity of glyphosate is very
low, but note that, as mentioned above, other added chemicals
(particularly surfactants, e.g. polyoxy-ethyleneamine, POEA), can be
more toxic than glyphosate itself.[17] Over-application, or application
directly to the soil may impact earthworms.

A review of the toxicological data on Roundup shows that there are at
least 58 studies of the effects of Roundup itself on a range of
organisms.[41] This review concluded that "for terrestrial uses of
Roundup minimal acute and chronic risk was predicted for potentially
exposed non-target organisms". It also concluded that there were some
risks to aquatic organisms exposed to Roundup in shallow water. More
recent research suggests glyphosate induces a variety of functional
abnormalities in fetuses and pregnant rats.[42] Also in recent mammalian
research, glyphosate has been found to interfere with an enzyme involved
testosterone production in mouse cell culture[43] and to interfere with
an estrogen biosynthesis enzyme in cultures of human placental cells.[44]
There is a reasonable correlation between the amount of Roundup ingested
and the likelihood of serious systemic sequelae or death. Ingestion of
85 mL of the concentrated formulation is likely to cause significant
toxicity in adults. Gastrointestinal corrosive effects, with mouth,
throat and epigastric pain and dysphagia are common. Renal and hepatic
impairment are also frequent, and usually reflect reduced organ
perfusion. Respiratory distress, impaired consciousness, pulmonary
oedema, infiltration on chest x-ray, shock, arrythmias, renal failure
requiring haemodialysis, metabolic acidosis and hyperkalaemia may
supervene in severe cases. Bradycardia and ventricular arrhythmias are
often present pre-terminally. Dermal exposure to ready-to-use glyphosate
formulations can cause irritation, and photo-contact dermatitis has been
reported occasionally; these effects are probably due to the
preservative Proxel (benzisothiazolin-3-one). Severe skin burns are very
rare. Inhalation is a minor route of exposure, but spray mist may cause
oral or nasal discomfort, an unpleasant taste in the mouth, tingling and
throat irritation. Eye exposure may lead to mild conjunctivitis, and
superficial corneal injury is possible if irrigation is delayed or
inadequate.[45]
[edit]

Other species
The direct toxicity of pure glyphosate to mammals and birds is
low.[46][unreliable source?] The acute oral toxicity of Roundup is
5,000*mg/kg in the rat.[47] It showed no toxic effects when fed to
animals for 2 years, and only produced rare cases of reproductive
effects when fed in extremely large doses to rodents and dogs. It has
not demonstrated any increase in cancer rates in animal studies and is
poorly absorbed in the digestive tract. Glyphosate has no significant
potential to accumulate in animal tissue.[48][49]

An in vitro study indicates that glyphosate formulations could harm
earthworms[50] and beneficial insects.[51] However, the reported effect
of glyphosate on earthworms has been criticized.[41] The results
conflict with results from field studies where no effects were noted for
the number of nematodes, mites, or springtails after treatment with
Roundup at 2 kilograms active ingredient per hectare.[52] Glyphosate can
negatively affect nitrogen-fixing bacteria,[53] and increase the
susceptibility of plants to disease.[54] A 2005 study concluded that
certain amphibians may be at risk from glyphosate use.[55]

Certain surfactants used in some glyphosate formulations have higher
toxicity to fish and invertebrates, resulting in some formulations of
glyphosate not being registered for use in aquatic applications.[56]
Monsanto produces glyphosate products with alternative surfactants that
are specifically formulated for aquatic use, for example "Biactive" and
"AquaMaster".[57] According to Monsanto, "Conservation groups have
chosen glyphosate formulations because of their effectiveness against
most weeds as glyphosate has very low toxicity to wildlife".[58]
Glyphosate is used with five different salts, but commercial
formulations of it contain surfactants, which vary in nature and
concentration. As a result, human poisoning with this herbicide is not
with the active ingredient alone, but with complex and variable
mixtures.[45]

Glyphosate's effect on soil life may be limited, because when glyphosate
comes into contact with the soil, it rapidly binds to soil particles and
is inactivated.[59][60] Unbound glyphosate is degraded by bacteria. Low
activity because of binding to soil particles suggests that glyphosate's
effects on soil flora are limited. Low glyphosate concentrations can be
found in many creeks and rivers in U.S. and Europe.[citation needed]
The United States Environmental Protection Agency,[59] the EC Health and
Consumer Protection Directorate, and the UN World Health Organization
have all concluded that pure glyphosate is not carcinogenic. Opponents
of glyphosate claim that Roundup has been found to cause genetic damage,
citing Peluso et al.[61] The authors concluded that the damage was "not
related to the active ingredient, but to another component of the
herbicide mixture".

Mammal research indicates oral intake of 1% glyphosate induces changes
in liver enzyme activities in pregnant rats and their fetuses.[62]
[edit]


Aquatic effects
Fish and aquatic invertebrates are more sensitive to Roundup than
terrestrial organisms.[41] Glyphosate is generally less persistent in
water than in soil, with 12 to 60 day persistence observed in Canadian
pond water, yet persistence of over a year have been observed in the
sediments of ponds in Michigan and Oregon.[34]

The EU classifies Roundup as R51/53 Toxic to aquatic organisms, may
cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment.[63]
Roundup is not registered for aquatic uses[64] and studies of its
effects on amphibians indicate it is toxic to them.[65] Other glyphosate
formulations that are registered for aquatic use have been found to have
negligible adverse effects on sensitive amphibians.[66]
[edit]

Endocrine disruptor debate
In vitro studies have shown glyphosate affects progesterone production
in mammalian cells[67] and can increase the mortality of placental
cells.[9] Whether these studies classify glyphosate as an endocrine
disruptor is debated.

Some[who?] feel that in vitro studies are insufficient, and are waiting
to see if animal studies show a change in endocrine activity, since a
change in a single cell line may or may not impact an entire organism.
Additionally, current in vitro studies expose cell lines to
concentrations orders of magnitude greater than would be found in
expected exposures, and through pathways that would not be typically
experienced in real organisms.

Others[who?] feel that in vitro studies, particularly ones identifying
not only an effect, but a chemical pathway, are sufficient evidence to
classify glyphosate as an endocrine disruptor, on the basis that even
small changes in endocrine activity can have lasting effects on an
entire organism that may be difficult to detect through whole organism
studies alone. Further research on the endocrine effects of glyphosate
is ongoing, including through the EPA endocrine screening program on 73
chemicals, published in 2007.
[edit]

Environmental degradation
When glyphosate comes into contact with the soil, it can be rapidly
bound to soil particles and be inactivated.[34] Unbound glyphosate can
be degraded by bacteria.[68] However, glyphosate has been shown to
increase the infection rate of wheat by fusarium head blight in fields
that have been treated with glyphosate.[69]

In soils, half-lives vary from as little as 3 days at a site in Texas to
141 days at a site in Iowa.[70] In addition, the glyphosate metabolite
aminomethylphosphonic acid has been shown to persist up to 2 years in
Swedish forest soils.[71] Glyphosate adsorption varies depending on the
kind of soil.[72]
[edit]

Resistance in weeds and microorganisms
The first documented cases of weed resistance to glyphosate were found
in Australia, involving rigid ryegrass near Orange, New South Wales.[73]
Some farmers in the United States have expressed concern that weeds are
now developing with glyphosate resistance, with 13 states now reporting
resistance, and this poses a problem to many farmers, including cotton
farmers, that are now heavily dependent on glyphosate to control
weeds.[74][75] Farmers associations are now reporting 103 biotypes of
weeds within 63 weed species with herbicide resistance[74][75]. This
problem is likely to be exacerbated by the use of roundup-ready crops
[76].
[edit]

Legal cases
[edit]

False advertising
In 1996 Monsanto was accused of false and misleading advertising of
glyphosate products, prompting a law suit by the New York State attorney
general.[77]

On Fri Jan 20, 2007, Monsanto was convicted of false advertising of
Roundup for presenting Roundup as biodegradable and claiming that it
left the soil clean after use. Environmental and consumer rights
campaigners brought the case in 2001 on the basis that glyphosate,
Roundup's main ingredient, is classed as "dangerous for the environment"
and "toxic for aquatic organisms" by the European Union. Monsanto France
planned to appeal the verdict at the time.[78]
[edit]

Scientific fraud
On two occasions the United States Environmental Protection Agency has
caught scientists deliberately falsifying test results at research
laboratories hired by Monsanto to study glyphosate.[79][80][81] In the
first incident involving Industrial Biotest Laboratories, an EPA
reviewer stated after finding "routine falsification of data" that it
was "hard to believe the scientific integrity of the studies when they
said they took specimens of the uterus from male rabbits".[82][83][84]
In the second incident of falsifying test results in 1991, the owner of
the lab (Craven Labs), and three employees were indicted on 20 felony
counts, the owner was sentenced to 5 years in prison and fined 50,000
dollars, the lab was fined 15.5 million dollars and ordered to pay 3.7
million in restitution.[85][86] Craven laboratories performed studies
for 262 pesticide companies, including Monsanto.

Monsanto has stated that the studies have been repeated, and Roundup's
EPA certification does not now use any studies from Craven Labs or IBT.
Monsanto also claims that the Craven Labs investigation was started by
the EPA after a pesticide industry task force discovered
irregularities.[87]
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

david wrote:
On 2/19/2010 10:34 AM, John McGaw wrote:
After many attempts at eradicating it I've determined that the
English Ivy (which is attempting to swallow the wooded area in front
of my house and acting like kudzu) is pretty much immune to Roundup,
even when mixed to the "brush killer" strength. The waxy cuticle on
the leaves seems to prevent them from taking up the glyphosate and
even adding a wetting agent to the spray doesn't seem to make it
work much better.

I've had luck mowing (string trimmer works quick) the ivy first, then
applying the roundup to the new growth. The new leaves seem to be
less "waxy", and are easier to attack.

Of course, this is a process I have to repeat 3 or 4 times before the
ivy will actually give up.

I was told once that roundup works much better with the addition of a bit of
bleach, by a "rancher" in Idaho. FWIW.

On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:43:44 -0800, JRStern
wrote:

Are there any ground covers that are compatible with (not killed by)
Roundup?


Established poison ivy is a tough one to kill. Mushrooms might work
too. Not living, but there are various mulches you can use.

We have some bare areas, (idiot) gardner has always just sprayed
Roundup there. I didn't even realize that's what he was doing, until
recently.

So, maybe I can try some ground covers, creeping thyme, red clover,
seedum, maybe some mosses. Are any of these more or less compatible
with Roundup in between or nearby, or even right on top?

RoundUp, even some overspray, will effect young green living plants.

I would awning the anew tilled breadth with a band of straw and again put in my arena awning plants... the harbinger will act as a short appellation admixture that will decidedly arrest edger advance until the ground awning gets a acceptable start. Harbinger is cheap, needs no accoutrement to apply added than your easily and becomes composted bound which amends the soil, abundant bigger than costly, dangerous, and common chemicals.