Organic is good as long as you can eliminate all the other toxins in
your life which I feel is impossible. The air we breathe is toxic. If
you eat meat, was that steak you just had raised on organic grain? Was
that beef steer injected with a growth hormone? How about the water you
drink? I'm sure you wouldn't think of drinking tap water with all the
chemicals added such as chlorine and fluoride to help save your teeth.
OK, so it's spring water you purchase as the local grocery market
instead. Does that mean that there are no chemicals leeching into the
spring through the ground? The plastic bottle that the water came in,
does it contain any toxins that could harm you? My point being, some
people carry organic to the extreme! Now I'm not saying organic is a
bad thing! I guess the best part of it is the fact that you can live
organic and die healthy

Rich

On 6/3/10 11:08 PM, EVP MAN wrote:

Organic is good as long as you can eliminate all the other toxins in
your life which I feel is impossible. The air we breathe is toxic. If
you eat meat, was that steak you just had raised on organic grain? Was
that beef steer injected with a growth hormone? How about the water you
drink? I'm sure you wouldn't think of drinking tap water with all the
chemicals added such as chlorine and fluoride to help save your teeth.
OK, so it's spring water you purchase as the local grocery market
instead. Does that mean that there are no chemicals leeching into the
spring through the ground? The plastic bottle that the water came in,
does it contain any toxins that could harm you? My point being, some
people carry organic to the extreme! Now I'm not saying organic is a
bad thing! I guess the best part of it is the fact that you can live
organic and die healthy

Rich


See my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html. See also my
signature below.

--
David E. Ross
http://www.rossde.com/

Natural foods can be harmful: Look at all the
people who die of natural causes.

On 6/4/2010 11:44 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 6/3/10 11:08 PM, EVP MAN wrote:

Organic is good as long as you can eliminate all the other toxins in
your life which I feel is impossible. The air we breathe is toxic. If
you eat meat, was that steak you just had raised on organic grain? Was
that beef steer injected with a growth hormone? How about the water you
drink? I'm sure you wouldn't think of drinking tap water with all the
chemicals added such as chlorine and fluoride to help save your teeth.
OK, so it's spring water you purchase as the local grocery market
instead. Does that mean that there are no chemicals leeching into the
spring through the ground? The plastic bottle that the water came in,
does it contain any toxins that could harm you? My point being, some
people carry organic to the extreme! Now I'm not saying organic is a
bad thing! I guess the best part of it is the fact that you can live
organic and die healthy

Rich


See myhttp://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html. See also my
signature below.


I'm an organic chemist and your site makes a lot of sense to me.
As a chemist, I know that some of the most dangerous substances known to
man are things like botulism, aflatoxin and ricin, that are found in
nature and can be considered as organic.

I also spent a few years working on food packaging materials and know
that in spite of all the supposed dangers in packaging, people are
poisoned by the toxins in the food itself, not the packaging.

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

See my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages, most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On Jun 3, 11:08*pm, (EVP MAN) wrote:
Organic is good as long as you can eliminate all the other toxins in
your life which I feel is impossible. *The air we breathe is toxic. *If
you eat meat, *was that steak you just had raised on organic grain? *Was
that beef steer injected with a growth hormone? *How about the water you
drink? *I'm sure you wouldn't think of drinking tap water with all the
chemicals added such as chlorine and fluoride to help save your teeth.
OK, *so it's spring water you purchase as the local grocery market
instead. *Does that mean that there are no chemicals leeching into the
spring through the ground? *The plastic bottle that the water came in,
does it contain any toxins that could harm you? *My point being, *some
people carry organic to the extreme! *Now I'm not saying organic is a
bad thing! *I guess the best part of it is the fact that you can live
organic and die healthy

Rich

NOTE: There's an economic factor here, as you no doubt have surmised.
Every con artist in the food business labels products "pure",
"natural",
etc. -- totally meaningless terms. Anything to entice the clueless
purchaser.

That's not questioning the bona fides of REAL organic producers, such
as
the growers who truck their produce into our four weekly farmers'
markets.
They are very closely supervised and monitored.

Just saying that "organic" is widely misunderstood and probably
often misapplied.

A little research into the nomenclature could yield some interesting
information!
Presumably the below is the gold standard.

National Organic Program
www.ams.usda.gov/nop
202-720-3252

Persephone

On Jun 4, 2:32*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*"David E. Ross" wrote:

See my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages, most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3l...Zinn_page.html

Your usual nitwit response.
He's trying to be helpful.
Nobody's perfect like you

In article
,
Frank wrote:

On Jun 4, 2:32*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*"David E. Ross" wrote:

See my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages, most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito
Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3l....thirdworldtra
veler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Your usual nitwit response.
He's trying to be helpful.
Nobody's perfect like you

I think it is not an issue concerning perfection but and attempt to
live with a small impact on the world about. The question becomes why
bother if we can do what we please with just adding energy in its many
forms. However to a simple observer the energy cost (true cost) may not
be sustainable so lowering energy into the equation of calories on a
land commons or not matters.
If the soil / land provides does it not behove us to try to aid the
process ? Cover crops vs 5/10/10 and then there is a little matter of
the web of life. Are we a part or just lost raiders . I favor
traditional gardening practices and study that but fail often as the web
of life can't be digitized.
Still the lighting bugs are out in force and tomorrow a trip to
Longwood gardens . Going to be hot but on the way home a offer of tea
was offered.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?

In article
,
Frank wrote:

On Jun 4, 2:32*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*"David E. Ross" wrote:

See my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages, most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito
Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3l....thirdworldtra
veler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Your usual nitwit response.
He's trying to be helpful.
Nobody's perfect like you

Why do you take so many words to say nothing, Frank.
You seem to be running away from my last response to you, so now you
want to change the subject?
What misinformation do you have for us now, Frank?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
Frank wrote:

On 6/4/2010 11:44 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 6/3/10 11:08 PM, EVP MAN wrote:

Organic is good as long as you can eliminate all the other toxins in
your life which I feel is impossible. The air we breathe is toxic. If
you eat meat, was that steak you just had raised on organic grain? Was
that beef steer injected with a growth hormone? How about the water you
drink? I'm sure you wouldn't think of drinking tap water with all the
chemicals added such as chlorine and fluoride to help save your teeth.
OK, so it's spring water you purchase as the local grocery market
instead. Does that mean that there are no chemicals leeching into the
spring through the ground? The plastic bottle that the water came in,
does it contain any toxins that could harm you? My point being, some
people carry organic to the extreme! Now I'm not saying organic is a
bad thing! I guess the best part of it is the fact that you can live
organic and die healthy

Rich


See myhttp://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html. See also my
signature below.


I'm an organic chemist and your site makes a lot of sense to me.
As a chemist, I know that some of the most dangerous substances known to
man are things like botulism, aflatoxin and ricin, that are found in
nature and can be considered as organic.

I also spent a few years working on food packaging materials and know
that in spite of all the supposed dangers in packaging, people are
poisoned by the toxins in the food itself, not the packaging.

Is urea an artificial substance, or one found in, and produced by
organisms, Frank?

Do you think an agronomist would think of malathion as an organic
pesticide, Frank, hmmm, do ya, Frank?

I can hardly wait to hear from an "organic chemist". What was you
degree? An AA?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On 6/4/2010 4:50 PM, Billy wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

On Jun 4, 2:32 pm, wrote:
In cknet,
"David E. wrote:

See myhttp://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages, most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito
Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3l....thirdworldtra
veler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Your usual nitwit response.
He's trying to be helpful.
Nobody's perfect like you

Why do you take so many words to say nothing, Frank.
You seem to be running away from my last response to you, so now you
want to change the subject?
What misinformation do you have for us now, Frank?

Who cares? I'm just trying to annoy you. Do you think the world hangs
on your posts?

On 6/4/2010 4:30 PM, Bill who putters wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

On Jun 4, 2:32 pm, wrote:
In cknet,
"David E. wrote:

See myhttp://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages, most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito
Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3l....thirdworldtra
veler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Your usual nitwit response.
He's trying to be helpful.
Nobody's perfect like you

I think it is not an issue concerning perfection but and attempt to
live with a small impact on the world about. The question becomes why
bother if we can do what we please with just adding energy in its many
forms. However to a simple observer the energy cost (true cost) may not
be sustainable so lowering energy into the equation of calories on a
land commons or not matters.
If the soil / land provides does it not behove us to try to aid the
process ? Cover crops vs 5/10/10 and then there is a little matter of
the web of life. Are we a part or just lost raiders . I favor
traditional gardening practices and study that but fail often as the web
of life can't be digitized.
Still the lighting bugs are out in force and tomorrow a trip to
Longwood gardens . Going to be hot but on the way home a offer of tea
was offered.

Longwood Gardens is only about 10 miles away. Years ago it used to be
free but the government made them spend more of their endowment and when
stock prices went down, they began charging admission. It will be very
hot there tomorrow but it's worth it.

Frank wrote:
On Jun 4, 2:32 pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

See my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that
it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you
that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages,
most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which
we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they
fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito
Mussolini.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3l...Zinn_page.html

Your usual nitwit response.
He's trying to be helpful.
Nobody's perfect like you

It isn't a nitwit response.

The quibble over urea is quite silly as it is both natural and synthetic.

The synthesis of urea after it had long been regarded as natural was one of
the turning points in the change of the meaning of "organic" used by
chemists. Once it meant compounds produced by living things, now it means
compounds of carbon.

As for the criticism of the page for confusing the neophyte Billy has a
better point. It would be better to explicitly explain both meanings of
"organic" rather than leaving it at the point of showing that "organic" in
the modern chemist's sense is not necessarily natural. Saying that the word
can be defined in different ways is less helpful than actually explaining
what both of those ways are.

In support of David Ross making the point that "natural" doesn't mean safe
(and warm and fuzzy and what grandma used to do) is well worth while in the
context of gardening and also when faced with a barrage of products that
have been greewashed.

But this will not make one bit of difference as both of you will find
something else to throw at each other once this issue has died.

David

On 6/4/10 1:58 PM, Billy wrote [in part]:
Is urea an artificial substance, or one found in, and produced by
organisms, Frank?

The urea granules in a sack in my garage are artificial. The urea on my
patio -- urine from my tortoise -- is natural. BOTH are organic.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

On 6/4/10 11:32 AM, Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

See my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html

Urea isn't artificial. Most people excrete it everyday, you may be
different.

Then you blend the technical language of chemistry with the common
language that most people communicate in. Ever talk to a lawyer and
notice that common words suddenly take on a different significance?

Malathion has carbon to carbon bonds, which to a chemist means that it
is an organic molecule. Talk to an agronomist, and they'll tell you that
it isn't organic, because it doesn't occur naturally. The chemist and
the agronomist are talking in two different technical languages, most of
us don't speak technically without qualifying the framework in which we
speak first.

Organic
3. denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit
together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole
----
This definition in your exposition seems to have escaped you, as you
confuse the technical with the common.

Good work on confusing the neophytes.

The neophytes were already confused. They have long been confusing
"organic" with "natural".

The quote from Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking Glass" at the top of
my cited Web page is quite relevant to this discussion:
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean
so many different things."


The last sentence of my first paragraph on that page is equally relevant:
After all, I am trying to grow plants that do not exist in nature,
in a garden where the natural soils and other components of the
environment would be hostile either to these unnatural plants or
to their natural ancestors.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

On 6/4/10 1:58 PM, Billy wrote [in part]:
Is urea an artificial substance, or one found in, and produced by
organisms, Frank?

The urea granules in a sack in my garage are artificial. The urea on my
patio -- urine from my tortoise -- is natural. BOTH are organic.

You didn't make that clarification. You just said it was artificial. The
urea that goes on my plants isn't artificial.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html