Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep to a
couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything when
they are soaking wet. Secondly, never try to plant anything when
they are bone dry. Clay is far more suited to growing many plants
than sandy soil; even those naturally found in sandy environments
will often more than just tolerate clay. I have grown heathers
without problem, and grown and fruited blueberries on clay (pH 6 -
6.5). I have even been able to move plants which are said to really
dislike being moved because a great lump of clay sticks to the roots,
and, to all intents and purposes, the roots really haven't been
disturbed at all. Try that with sandy or even "highly desirable"
loamy soil. The one plant I have given up with on clay soil is
grass. Where it is constantly wet, a lawn simply ends up a mess,
often with more moss than grass. The previous owner of the house I
moved in to had so much trouble he installed land drains, but even
those couldn't make a meaningful difference and in the end I had the
lawn removed (no great loss as I can't stand lawns anyway).
I live in the Sussex weald, and have been gardening on clay for over
25 years. And, believe me, Sussex clay is real clay. I have about 10
inches of claggy "soil" over a solid clay subsoil (solid with
ironstone lumps, that is. Even a pickaxe fails to penetrate some
parts. and I have to resort to a hammer drill if I want a deep hole).
The most difficult thing about gardening on clay is digging the damn
stuff; it is /very/ hard work. It even sticks to stainless steel
spades with a vengeance. And when dry, don't even bother with a
hammer drill - it's not worth the effort. Wait until it's workable
again.
But when it grows stuff, it is brilliant. It holds moisture; it holds
nutrients; it anchors. It tends to help withstand frosts much better
than lighter soils.

My situation is similar to yours, a layer of topsoil over plastic clay,
though I suspect my topsoil is naturally better. I agree that clay soil
holds water and nutrients well and can produce great crops. Every time the
region goes into drought I thank my stars for the clay underneath that acts
like a big sponge and keeps my pasture growing for months without rain.
Having had very sandy soil (that I was always trying to build up) and very
clayey soil that I have to break down I will take the clay.

BUT You have to have (or to make) actual soil. Clay by itself ( I mean the
plastic stuff you can mould into complex shapes) is hopeless. The process
of amending it takes years of effort and some skill. The choice of plants
has to be considered carefully as many will die in a wet spell due to lack
of drainage and it is impractical (for me anyway) to landscape the whole
garden for drainage and to amend all its soil to prevent the problem. As it
is all my fruit trees grow in mounds and my vege garden has raised beds with
drain paths running down-slope: at considerable effort and cost.

Clay is not for people who just want to plop something in the ground and see
it grow. I thought it interesting that in response to "Treat clay soils
with respect... they're difficult to grow on." you first deny that it is so
and then go on to explain all the difficulties that have. :-)


David

David Hare-Scott wrote:
....
My situation is similar to yours, a layer of topsoil over plastic clay,
though I suspect my topsoil is naturally better. I agree that clay soil
holds water and nutrients well and can produce great crops. Every time the
region goes into drought I thank my stars for the clay underneath that acts
like a big sponge and keeps my pasture growing for months without rain.
Having had very sandy soil (that I was always trying to build up) and very
clayey soil that I have to break down I will take the clay.

if you have a properly planted pasture with some
alfalfas and red clovers the tap roots from those
go down quite deep. even for more sandier soils
they can make the difference between a nice top
and barren brown scraggly yuck.

then again, also important is to not overgraze.


BUT You have to have (or to make) actual soil. Clay by itself ( I mean the
plastic stuff you can mould into complex shapes) is hopeless. The process
of amending it takes years of effort and some skill.

lasagna gardening isn't too bad, pile it on and
let time/worms/critters do most of the work. i
just wish i had enough space to do here that wasn't
surrounded by gravel pathways and prone to flooding
once in a while.


The choice of plants
has to be considered carefully as many will die in a wet spell due to lack
of drainage and it is impractical (for me anyway) to landscape the whole
garden for drainage and to amend all its soil to prevent the problem. As it
is all my fruit trees grow in mounds and my vege garden has raised beds with
drain paths running down-slope: at considerable effort and cost.

without the raised beds here many of the gardens out
back would be too soggy for too much of the spring to
get the soil warm enough. that is one of the problems
with clay that hasn't been mentioned yet (that it stays
cold longer). for some crops this is good, for others
not so good (tomatoes, peppers).


Clay is not for people who just want to plop something in the ground and see
it grow. I thought it interesting that in response to "Treat clay soils
with respect... they're difficult to grow on." you first deny that it is so
and then go on to explain all the difficulties that have. :-)

i keep working more organic material in when i
have a chance to do it and the garden is in between
crops/covercropping. still i'm not down very far in
some gardens because we keep rotating the heavier
feeders and i don't have a huge amount of extra
time and energy to dig in more stuff or hunt it down.
so far mixing in partially decayed wood chips along
with some sand if i have it has been the best results
for working, if i could convince myself to get a
breathing rig set up so i could fire more charcoal
in clay lined pits i think that was even a better
result for workability.

i agree with the points about proper drainage
being very important (or a good landscape design)
for clay. until i got the drainage situation
improved here it didn't make much sense to plant
certain gardens early.

for root vegetable beds out back (and the tulips)
i put in raised beds with french drains and drain
tiles to keep the water moving downwards or away
instead of perking the clay back up to the surface.
i put landscape fabric down too before i put the
topsoil/sandy topsoil mix in. i didn't want to
make it easy for the worms to channel into the
clay and mix it with the topsoil either. today
these were the only gardens that didn't get
flooded much.


songbird

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

Having had very sandy soil (that I was always trying to build up) and very
clayey soil that I have to break down I will take the clay.

I seem to recall an old gardener's saying of "Sand, heartache, Clay,
backache".

On 10/08/2012 22:42, Kay Lancaster wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep to a
couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything when they

I, too, have been growing on clay for about 40 years now... first the clay
subsoil that was all the builders left when they stripped the top soil
and sold it at my childhood home in Iowa, and now out here in Oregon --
both yellow clays, though the Oregon clay is calcium poor, rocky and
nearly free of worms (there are no native worms out here),

Is that normal? I don't know anything about Oregon Clay, but would have
though that if there are almost no worms, more-or-less nothing could
grow as recycling of plant material couldn't take place, and aeration
would be non-existent. What happens with the native plants out there?
Or is the area basically a clay desert?

so it
compacts easily and often requires mechanical aeration-- the Iowa soil
did not require much mechanical aeration and was calcium rich.

It wasn't until I moved
to an area with a lovely, deep prairie topsoil that gardening became fun.
There, I could stand barefoot on bare soil and wiggle my feet a bit and
dig myself in ankle deep, the soil was that friable and loose. Stick a plant
in the ground and it grew.

But that's too easy. Don't you want a challenge? ;-)

Though clay holds soil moisture well, it's often not as available to the
plants as water in sandy soils, e.g.: http://ag.arizona.edu/turf/tips1095.html
which is a special problem in drought.

Interesting article. Grass, though...

--

Jeff

On 11/08/2012 00:12, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep to a
couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything when
they are soaking wet. Secondly, never try to plant anything when
they are bone dry. Clay is far more suited to growing many plants
than sandy soil; even those naturally found in sandy environments
will often more than just tolerate clay. I have grown heathers
without problem, and grown and fruited blueberries on clay (pH 6 -
6.5). I have even been able to move plants which are said to really
dislike being moved because a great lump of clay sticks to the roots,
and, to all intents and purposes, the roots really haven't been
disturbed at all. Try that with sandy or even "highly desirable"
loamy soil. The one plant I have given up with on clay soil is
grass. Where it is constantly wet, a lawn simply ends up a mess,
often with more moss than grass. The previous owner of the house I
moved in to had so much trouble he installed land drains, but even
those couldn't make a meaningful difference and in the end I had the
lawn removed (no great loss as I can't stand lawns anyway).
I live in the Sussex weald, and have been gardening on clay for over
25 years. And, believe me, Sussex clay is real clay. I have about 10
inches of claggy "soil" over a solid clay subsoil (solid with
ironstone lumps, that is. Even a pickaxe fails to penetrate some
parts. and I have to resort to a hammer drill if I want a deep hole).
The most difficult thing about gardening on clay is digging the damn
stuff; it is /very/ hard work. It even sticks to stainless steel
spades with a vengeance. And when dry, don't even bother with a
hammer drill - it's not worth the effort. Wait until it's workable
again.
But when it grows stuff, it is brilliant. It holds moisture; it holds
nutrients; it anchors. It tends to help withstand frosts much better
than lighter soils.

My situation is similar to yours, a layer of topsoil over plastic clay,
though I suspect my topsoil is naturally better. I agree that clay soil
holds water and nutrients well and can produce great crops. Every time the
region goes into drought I thank my stars for the clay underneath that acts
like a big sponge and keeps my pasture growing for months without rain.
Having had very sandy soil (that I was always trying to build up) and very
clayey soil that I have to break down I will take the clay.

BUT You have to have (or to make) actual soil. Clay by itself ( I mean the
plastic stuff you can mould into complex shapes) is hopeless. The process
of amending it takes years of effort and some skill. The choice of plants
has to be considered carefully as many will die in a wet spell due to lack
of drainage and it is impractical (for me anyway) to landscape the whole
garden for drainage and to amend all its soil to prevent the problem. As it
is all my fruit trees grow in mounds and my vege garden has raised beds with
drain paths running down-slope: at considerable effort and cost.

Clay is not for people who just want to plop something in the ground and see
it grow. I thought it interesting that in response to "Treat clay soils
with respect... they're difficult to grow on." you first deny that it is so
and then go on to explain all the difficulties that have. :-)

Did I? Read my post again.

You are confusing "growing" with the act of digging or cultivating. For
the latter, good loam or even sandy soil wins every time, as the job is
easy. But once in, plants grow much better in clay without a lot of
additional help such as watering and use of fertilisers.

--

Jeff

On 11/08/2012 07:02, Farm1 wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

Having had very sandy soil (that I was always trying to build up) and very
clayey soil that I have to break down I will take the clay.

I seem to recall an old gardener's saying of "Sand, heartache, Clay,
backache".

LoL! I'll have to remember that one.

--

Jeff

On Aug 11, 3:54*am, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 11/08/2012 00:12, David Hare-Scott wrote:









Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. *Difficult to work
maybe. *But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep to a
couple of simple rules. *Firstly, never try to plant anything when
they are soaking wet. *Secondly, never try to plant anything when
they are bone dry. *Clay is far more suited to growing many plants
than sandy soil; even those naturally found in sandy environments
will often more than just tolerate clay. I have grown heathers
without problem, and grown and fruited blueberries on clay (pH 6 -
6.5). *I have even been able to move plants which are said to really
dislike being moved because a great lump of clay sticks to the roots,
and, to all intents and purposes, the roots really haven't been
disturbed at all. *Try that with sandy or even "highly desirable"
loamy soil. *The one plant I have given up with on clay soil is
grass. *Where it is constantly wet, a lawn simply ends up a mess,
often with more moss than grass. *The previous owner of the house I
moved in to had so much trouble he installed land drains, but even
those couldn't make a meaningful difference and in the end I had the
lawn removed (no great loss as I can't stand lawns anyway).
I live in the Sussex weald, and have been gardening on clay for over
25 years. And, believe me, Sussex clay is real clay. *I have about 10
inches of claggy "soil" over a solid clay subsoil (solid with
ironstone lumps, that is. Even a pickaxe fails to penetrate some
parts. and I have to resort to a hammer drill if I want a deep hole).
The most difficult thing about gardening on clay is digging the damn
stuff; it is /very/ hard work. *It even sticks to stainless steel
spades with a vengeance. And when dry, don't even bother with a
hammer drill - it's not worth the effort. *Wait until it's workable
again.
But when it grows stuff, it is brilliant. *It holds moisture; it holds
nutrients; it anchors. *It tends to help withstand frosts much better
than lighter soils.

My situation is similar to yours, a layer of topsoil over plastic clay,
though I suspect my topsoil is naturally better. *I agree that clay soil
holds water and nutrients well and can produce great crops. *Every time the
region goes into drought I thank my stars for the clay underneath that acts
like a big sponge and keeps my pasture growing for months without rain.
Having had very sandy soil (that I was always trying to build up) and very
clayey soil that I have to break down I will take the clay.

BUT *You have to have (or to make) actual soil. *Clay by itself ( I mean the
plastic stuff you can mould into complex shapes) is hopeless. *The process
of amending it takes years of effort and some skill. *The choice of plants
has to be considered carefully as many will die in a wet spell due to lack
of drainage and it is impractical (for me anyway) to landscape the whole
garden for drainage and to amend all its soil to prevent the problem. *As it
is all my fruit trees grow in mounds and my vege garden has raised beds with
drain paths running down-slope: at considerable effort and cost.

Clay is not for people who just want to plop something in the ground and see
it grow. *I thought it interesting that in response to "Treat clay soils
with respect... they're difficult to grow on." you first deny that it is so
and then go on to explain all the difficulties that have. *:-)

Did I? *Read my post again.

You are confusing "growing" with the act of digging or cultivating. *For
the latter, good loam or even sandy soil wins every time, as the job is
easy. *But once in, plants grow much better in clay without a lot of
additional help such as watering and use of fertilisers.

--

Jeff

Cites, please? I am interested in following this up.

TIA

HB

Higgs Boson wrote:

Cites, please? I am interested in following this up.

East facing UK garden:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...e-when-praying

Higgs Boson wrote:
On Aug 11, 3:54 am, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 11/08/2012 00:12, David Hare-Scott wrote:









Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep
to a couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything
when they are soaking wet. Secondly, never try to plant anything
when they are bone dry. Clay is far more suited to growing many
plants than sandy soil; even those naturally found in sandy
environments will often more than just tolerate clay. I have grown
heathers without problem, and grown and fruited blueberries on
clay (pH 6 -
6.5). I have even been able to move plants which are said to really
dislike being moved because a great lump of clay sticks to the
roots, and, to all intents and purposes, the roots really haven't
been disturbed at all. Try that with sandy or even "highly
desirable" loamy soil. The one plant I have given up with on clay
soil is grass. Where it is constantly wet, a lawn simply ends up a
mess, often with more moss than grass. The previous owner of the
house I moved in to had so much trouble he installed land drains,
but even those couldn't make a meaningful difference and in the
end I had the lawn removed (no great loss as I can't stand lawns
anyway).
I live in the Sussex weald, and have been gardening on clay for
over 25 years. And, believe me, Sussex clay is real clay. I have
about 10 inches of claggy "soil" over a solid clay subsoil (solid
with ironstone lumps, that is. Even a pickaxe fails to penetrate
some parts. and I have to resort to a hammer drill if I want a
deep hole). The most difficult thing about gardening on clay is
digging the damn stuff; it is /very/ hard work. It even sticks to
stainless steel spades with a vengeance. And when dry, don't even
bother with a hammer drill - it's not worth the effort. Wait until
it's workable again.
But when it grows stuff, it is brilliant. It holds moisture; it
holds nutrients; it anchors. It tends to help withstand frosts
much better than lighter soils.

My situation is similar to yours, a layer of topsoil over plastic
clay, though I suspect my topsoil is naturally better. I agree that
clay soil holds water and nutrients well and can produce great
crops. Every time the region goes into drought I thank my stars for
the clay underneath that acts like a big sponge and keeps my
pasture growing for months without rain. Having had very sandy soil
(that I was always trying to build up) and very clayey soil that I
have to break down I will take the clay.

BUT You have to have (or to make) actual soil. Clay by itself ( I
mean the plastic stuff you can mould into complex shapes) is
hopeless. The process of amending it takes years of effort and some
skill. The choice of plants has to be considered carefully as many
will die in a wet spell due to lack of drainage and it is
impractical (for me anyway) to landscape the whole garden for
drainage and to amend all its soil to prevent the problem. As it is
all my fruit trees grow in mounds and my vege garden has raised
beds with drain paths running down-slope: at considerable effort
and cost.

Clay is not for people who just want to plop something in the
ground and see it grow. I thought it interesting that in response
to "Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on."
you first deny that it is so and then go on to explain all the
difficulties that have. :-)

Did I? Read my post again.

You are confusing "growing" with the act of digging or cultivating.
For the latter, good loam or even sandy soil wins every time, as the
job is easy. But once in, plants grow much better in clay without a
lot of additional help such as watering and use of fertilisers.

--

Jeff

Cites, please? I am interested in following this up.

TIA

The reason is that clay contains a lot of colloidal (ie very very small)
particles that have a high surface area and a surface charge. This has two
consequences.

One that they bind water, this accounts for behaviour of clay soils in that
they swell when wet and shrink when dry. So a soil with a modest amount of
clay will hold water much better than just sand or pebbles whose surface
area is much smaller and don't bind water. If you have a reasonable amount
of clay this is advantageous to growing, especially active annuals like
cucurbits that wilt on hot days if the soil doesn't supply enough water. In
my case I have another benefit that the solid clay sub-strata acts a
reservoir evening out the erratic rainfall of the region. It takes up water
during wet spells and gives it back in dry.

Two that clay binds minerals. The cation exchange capacity and total
exchange capacity is much higher than sand. So clay soils don't leach
minerals nearly so easily and stay more fertile for the application of a
given amount of fertiliser than sand. The disadvantage is that if you have
undesirable minerals such as sodium ions these will bind and displace
desireable ions like calcium, magnesium etc. This sodised soil is unfertile
and very hard to remedy.

Provided you take care not to work it when too wet or too dry and deal with
drainage issues soil with a reasonable amount of clay will be more
productive than that with very little or none. I think Billy has some
tables of the desireable amount of clay in garden soil.

David

On Aug 11, 7:49*pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
On Aug 11, 3:54 am, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 11/08/2012 00:12, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep
to a couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything
when they are soaking wet. Secondly, never try to plant anything
when they are bone dry. Clay is far more suited to growing many
plants than sandy soil; even those naturally found in sandy
environments will often more than just tolerate clay. I have grown
heathers without problem, and grown and fruited blueberries on
clay (pH 6 -
6.5). I have even been able to move plants which are said to really
dislike being moved because a great lump of clay sticks to the
roots, and, to all intents and purposes, the roots really haven't
been disturbed at all. Try that with sandy or even "highly
desirable" loamy soil. The one plant I have given up with on clay
soil is grass. Where it is constantly wet, a lawn simply ends up a
mess, often with more moss than grass. The previous owner of the
house I moved in to had so much trouble he installed land drains,
but even those couldn't make a meaningful difference and in the
end I had the lawn removed (no great loss as I can't stand lawns
anyway).
I live in the Sussex weald, and have been gardening on clay for
over 25 years. And, believe me, Sussex clay is real clay. I have
about 10 inches of claggy "soil" over a solid clay subsoil (solid
with ironstone lumps, that is. Even a pickaxe fails to penetrate
some parts. and I have to resort to a hammer drill if I want a
deep hole). The most difficult thing about gardening on clay is
digging the damn stuff; it is /very/ hard work. It even sticks to
stainless steel spades with a vengeance. And when dry, don't even
bother with a hammer drill - it's not worth the effort. Wait until
it's workable again.
But when it grows stuff, it is brilliant. It holds moisture; it
holds nutrients; it anchors. It tends to help withstand frosts
much better than lighter soils.

My situation is similar to yours, a layer of topsoil over plastic
clay, though I suspect my topsoil is naturally better. I agree that
clay soil holds water and nutrients well and can produce great
crops. Every time the region goes into drought I thank my stars for
the clay underneath that acts like a big sponge and keeps my
pasture growing for months without rain. Having had very sandy soil
(that I was always trying to build up) and very clayey soil that I
have to break down I will take the clay.

BUT You have to have (or to make) actual soil. Clay by itself ( I
mean the plastic stuff you can mould into complex shapes) is
hopeless. The process of amending it takes years of effort and some
skill. The choice of plants has to be considered carefully as many
will die in a wet spell due to lack of drainage and it is
impractical (for me anyway) to landscape the whole garden for
drainage and to amend all its soil to prevent the problem. As it is
all my fruit trees grow in mounds and my vege garden has raised
beds with drain paths running down-slope: at considerable effort
and cost.

Clay is not for people who just want to plop something in the
ground and see it grow. I thought it interesting that in response
to "Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on."
you first deny that it is so and then go on to explain all the
difficulties that have. :-)

Did I? Read my post again.

You are confusing "growing" with the act of digging or cultivating.
For the latter, good loam or even sandy soil wins every time, as the
job is easy. But once in, plants grow much better in clay without a
lot of additional help such as watering and use of fertilisers.

--

Jeff

Cites, please? *I am interested in following this up.

TIA

The reason is that clay contains a lot of colloidal (ie very very small)
particles that have a high surface area and a surface charge. *This has two
consequences.

One that they bind water, this accounts for behaviour of clay soils in that
they swell when wet and shrink when dry. *So a soil with a modest amount of
clay will hold water much better than just sand or pebbles whose surface
area is much smaller and don't bind water. *If you have a reasonable amount
of clay this is advantageous to growing, especially active annuals like
cucurbits that wilt on hot days if the soil doesn't supply enough water. *In
my case I have another benefit that the solid clay sub-strata acts a
reservoir evening out the erratic rainfall of the region. *It takes up water
during wet spells and gives it back in dry.

Two that clay binds minerals. *The cation exchange capacity and total
exchange capacity is much higher than sand. *So clay soils don't leach
minerals nearly so easily and stay more fertile for the application of a
given amount of fertiliser than sand. *The disadvantage is that if you have
undesirable minerals such as sodium ions these will bind and displace
desireable ions like calcium, magnesium etc. *This sodised soil is unfertile
and very hard to remedy.

Provided you take care not to work it when too wet or too dry and deal with
drainage issues soil with a reasonable amount of clay will be more
productive than that with very little or none. *I think Billy has some
tables of the desireable amount of clay in garden soil.

David

(Awed) I sit at your feet!

Question: Why equate clay to sand? Isn't that going to extremes? My
soil is, AFAIK, a good loam (I see that term is still used). The clay-
ey (adobe) soil characteristic of this area has been greatly modified
by application of various Good Things over time. I inherited pretty
good dirt from the sellers [censored] years ago, and have continued to
apply compost and worm castings, as well as small amounts of Other
Stuff, so it's nice and friable.

On 11/08/2012 18:51, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Aug 11, 3:54 am, Jeff Layman wrote:
You are confusing "growing" with the act of digging or cultivating. For
the latter, good loam or even sandy soil wins every time, as the job is
easy. But once in, plants grow much better in clay without a lot of
additional help such as watering and use of fertilisers.

--

Jeff

Cites, please? I am interested in following this up.

TIA

HB

Try he
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/...e.aspx?pid=179

Selected quotes:
"Clay soils have over 25 percent clay. Also known as heavy soils, these
are potentially fertile as they hold nutrients bound to the clay
minerals in the soil. But they also hold a high proportion of water due
to the capillary attraction of the tiny spaces between the numerous clay
particles."

"Sandy soils have high proportion of sand and little clay. Also known as
light soils, these soils drain quickly after rain or watering, are easy
to cultivate and work. They warm up more quickly in spring than clay
soils. But on the downside, they dry out quickly and are low in plant
nutrients, which are quickly washed out by rain. Sandy soils are often
very acidic "

IME there are certain areas of sandy soil in various parts of the world
all well-known for nutrient problems. I believe the Pine Barrens in NJ
have a very select flora, and most certainly the lateritic sands of
Western Australia are extremely low in phosphates. So much so, in fact,
that if normal (balanced) fertiisers are used on Proteaceae from this
region you might just as well have given them a herbicide!

--

Jeff

Higgs Boson wrote:
On Aug 11, 7:49 pm, "David Hare-Scott" wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
On Aug 11, 3:54 am, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 11/08/2012 00:12, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep
to a couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything
when they are soaking wet. Secondly, never try to plant anything
when they are bone dry. Clay is far more suited to growing many
plants than sandy soil; even those naturally found in sandy
environments will often more than just tolerate clay. I have
grown heathers without problem, and grown and fruited
blueberries on clay (pH 6 -
6.5). I have even been able to move plants which are said to
really dislike being moved because a great lump of clay sticks
to the roots, and, to all intents and purposes, the roots really
haven't been disturbed at all. Try that with sandy or even
"highly desirable" loamy soil. The one plant I have given up
with on clay soil is grass. Where it is constantly wet, a lawn
simply ends up a mess, often with more moss than grass. The
previous owner of the house I moved in to had so much trouble he
installed land drains, but even those couldn't make a meaningful
difference and in the end I had the lawn removed (no great loss
as I can't stand lawns anyway).
I live in the Sussex weald, and have been gardening on clay for
over 25 years. And, believe me, Sussex clay is real clay. I have
about 10 inches of claggy "soil" over a solid clay subsoil (solid
with ironstone lumps, that is. Even a pickaxe fails to penetrate
some parts. and I have to resort to a hammer drill if I want a
deep hole). The most difficult thing about gardening on clay is
digging the damn stuff; it is /very/ hard work. It even sticks to
stainless steel spades with a vengeance. And when dry, don't even
bother with a hammer drill - it's not worth the effort. Wait
until it's workable again.
But when it grows stuff, it is brilliant. It holds moisture; it
holds nutrients; it anchors. It tends to help withstand frosts
much better than lighter soils.

My situation is similar to yours, a layer of topsoil over plastic
clay, though I suspect my topsoil is naturally better. I agree
that clay soil holds water and nutrients well and can produce
great crops. Every time the region goes into drought I thank my
stars for the clay underneath that acts like a big sponge and
keeps my pasture growing for months without rain. Having had very
sandy soil (that I was always trying to build up) and very clayey
soil that I have to break down I will take the clay.

BUT You have to have (or to make) actual soil. Clay by itself ( I
mean the plastic stuff you can mould into complex shapes) is
hopeless. The process of amending it takes years of effort and
some skill. The choice of plants has to be considered carefully
as many will die in a wet spell due to lack of drainage and it is
impractical (for me anyway) to landscape the whole garden for
drainage and to amend all its soil to prevent the problem. As it
is all my fruit trees grow in mounds and my vege garden has raised
beds with drain paths running down-slope: at considerable effort
and cost.

Clay is not for people who just want to plop something in the
ground and see it grow. I thought it interesting that in response
to "Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow
on." you first deny that it is so and then go on to explain all
the difficulties that have. :-)

Did I? Read my post again.

You are confusing "growing" with the act of digging or cultivating.
For the latter, good loam or even sandy soil wins every time, as
the job is easy. But once in, plants grow much better in clay
without a lot of additional help such as watering and use of
fertilisers.

--

Jeff

Cites, please? I am interested in following this up.

TIA

The reason is that clay contains a lot of colloidal (ie very very
small) particles that have a high surface area and a surface charge.
This has two consequences.

One that they bind water, this accounts for behaviour of clay soils
in that they swell when wet and shrink when dry. So a soil with a
modest amount of clay will hold water much better than just sand or
pebbles whose surface area is much smaller and don't bind water. If
you have a reasonable amount of clay this is advantageous to
growing, especially active annuals like cucurbits that wilt on hot
days if the soil doesn't supply enough water. In my case I have
another benefit that the solid clay sub-strata acts a reservoir
evening out the erratic rainfall of the region. It takes up water
during wet spells and gives it back in dry.

Two that clay binds minerals. The cation exchange capacity and total
exchange capacity is much higher than sand. So clay soils don't leach
minerals nearly so easily and stay more fertile for the application
of a given amount of fertiliser than sand. The disadvantage is that
if you have undesirable minerals such as sodium ions these will bind
and displace desireable ions like calcium, magnesium etc. This
sodised soil is unfertile and very hard to remedy.

Provided you take care not to work it when too wet or too dry and
deal with drainage issues soil with a reasonable amount of clay will
be more productive than that with very little or none. I think Billy
has some tables of the desireable amount of clay in garden soil.

David

(Awed) I sit at your feet!

Question: Why equate clay to sand? Isn't that going to extremes?

Equate no, contrast yes. Yes they are extemes, I said that to illustrate
the difference not to recommend either. They are ends of the spectrum in
particle size but also in minaral composition. Sand is largely silica which
is almost inert with respect to water and minerals. Good soil is neither
extreme but has both (as well as organic matter) avoiding the drainage and
workability problems of too much clay and the poor water and mineral holding
power of too much sand.

Have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_texture

Which shows the situation in three dimensions instead of the two that I
used. It also has some practical tests so you can work out what you have.
It is well worth learning and performing such tests on your soil.

D

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

On 10/08/2012 22:42, Kay Lancaster wrote:
On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep to a
couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything when they

I, too, have been growing on clay for about 40 years now... first the clay
subsoil that was all the builders left when they stripped the top soil
and sold it at my childhood home in Iowa, and now out here in Oregon --
both yellow clays, though the Oregon clay is calcium poor, rocky and
nearly free of worms (there are no native worms out here),

Is that normal? I don't know anything about Oregon Clay, but would have
though that if there are almost no worms, more-or-less nothing could
grow as recycling of plant material couldn't take place, and aeration
would be non-existent. What happens with the native plants out there?
Or is the area basically a clay desert?

Here, 70 miles north of San Francisco, we have heavy clay. We scratched
at it for years before getting serious. The final solution was tilling
in sand (probably %5), and organic material. On this was planted rye
grass, and buckwheat, which break-up, and fills the soil with an amazing
amount of roots. Lastly, we keep the beds mulched, which allow the worms
to do most of the heavy work of turning, aerating (good soil is 50% air
spaces), and draining the soil.

For sure, plants like sequoias, oak, bay, and manzanita can punch
through the clay, but east of here in the town of Sonoma, there is
impenetrable hardpan (clay) a few feet below the top soil, which can
prevent perennials from finding the water they need.

Gotta work with wha'cha got.

so it
compacts easily and often requires mechanical aeration-- the Iowa soil
did not require much mechanical aeration and was calcium rich.

It wasn't until I moved
to an area with a lovely, deep prairie topsoil that gardening became fun.
There, I could stand barefoot on bare soil and wiggle my feet a bit and
dig myself in ankle deep, the soil was that friable and loose. Stick a
plant
in the ground and it grew.

But that's too easy. Don't you want a challenge? ;-)

Though clay holds soil moisture well, it's often not as available to the
plants as water in sandy soils, e.g.:
http://ag.arizona.edu/turf/tips1095.html
which is a special problem in drought.

Interesting article. Grass, though...

--
Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running