In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?

On 10/11/12 3:43 PM, Peter Jason wrote:
In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?


If there is a rare heavy rain or if the surrounding land drains towards
or near the hole, the tree will drown. I know of a group of Japanese
ornamental cherry trees, some of which were planted in shallow basins.
They are dying from root-rot.

Plant your tree on a slight mound.

If you can bore a hole 2 m deep, make 4-6 of them about 8 cm in diameter
in a circle around where you want to plant your tree. Get 2 m lengths
of 8 cm plastic pipe, the kind used for drains. Starting about 10 cm
from one end, drill 2 cm holes around each pipe. Place each pipe in a
hole in the ground with the undrilled 10 cm at the top. Fit a grate
over each exposed pipe end to prevent the pipe from filling with leaves
and other debris. Use these pipes to irrigate your tree by filling each
pipe with water once a week.

If the water table is 2 m down, eventually the tree's roots should reach
it. After 3-4 years, reduce the frequency of irrigating. If the tree
does not show any stress, the roots have indeed found the water table.
You might then be able to stop all irrigation. Leave the pipes; they
will permit air to enter the soil, which is good for healthy trees.

Note that all this will not work only if the tree is a type that has
only shallow roots that cannot reach the water table. Oaks, conifers,
and many others develop tap roots that will succeed in finding the water
table. But many of these are sensitive to excess water that would fill
a 2 m planting hole.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:15:02 -0700, "David E.
Ross" wrote:

On 10/11/12 3:43 PM, Peter Jason wrote:
In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?


If there is a rare heavy rain or if the surrounding land drains towards
or near the hole, the tree will drown. I know of a group of Japanese
ornamental cherry trees, some of which were planted in shallow basins.
They are dying from root-rot.

Plant your tree on a slight mound.

If you can bore a hole 2 m deep, make 4-6 of them about 8 cm in diameter
in a circle around where you want to plant your tree. Get 2 m lengths
of 8 cm plastic pipe, the kind used for drains. Starting about 10 cm
from one end, drill 2 cm holes around each pipe. Place each pipe in a
hole in the ground with the undrilled 10 cm at the top. Fit a grate
over each exposed pipe end to prevent the pipe from filling with leaves
and other debris. Use these pipes to irrigate your tree by filling each
pipe with water once a week.

If the water table is 2 m down, eventually the tree's roots should reach
it. After 3-4 years, reduce the frequency of irrigating. If the tree
does not show any stress, the roots have indeed found the water table.
You might then be able to stop all irrigation. Leave the pipes; they
will permit air to enter the soil, which is good for healthy trees.

Note that all this will not work only if the tree is a type that has
only shallow roots that cannot reach the water table. Oaks, conifers,
and many others develop tap roots that will succeed in finding the water
table. But many of these are sensitive to excess water that would fill
a 2 m planting hole.


Thanks, do you mean that the circle of 8cm
boreholes are there for watering, and to attract
the roots of the tree downwards to a depth these
might not reach normally?
And that the roots therefore will be 2 meters
further down in the earth than they normally be?

On 10/12/12 4:53 PM, Peter Jason wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:15:02 -0700, "David E.
Ross" wrote:

On 10/11/12 3:43 PM, Peter Jason wrote:
In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?


If there is a rare heavy rain or if the surrounding land drains towards
or near the hole, the tree will drown. I know of a group of Japanese
ornamental cherry trees, some of which were planted in shallow basins.
They are dying from root-rot.

Plant your tree on a slight mound.

If you can bore a hole 2 m deep, make 4-6 of them about 8 cm in diameter
in a circle around where you want to plant your tree. Get 2 m lengths
of 8 cm plastic pipe, the kind used for drains. Starting about 10 cm
from one end, drill 2 cm holes around each pipe. Place each pipe in a
hole in the ground with the undrilled 10 cm at the top. Fit a grate
over each exposed pipe end to prevent the pipe from filling with leaves
and other debris. Use these pipes to irrigate your tree by filling each
pipe with water once a week.

If the water table is 2 m down, eventually the tree's roots should reach
it. After 3-4 years, reduce the frequency of irrigating. If the tree
does not show any stress, the roots have indeed found the water table.
You might then be able to stop all irrigation. Leave the pipes; they
will permit air to enter the soil, which is good for healthy trees.

Note that all this will not work only if the tree is a type that has
only shallow roots that cannot reach the water table. Oaks, conifers,
and many others develop tap roots that will succeed in finding the water
table. But many of these are sensitive to excess water that would fill
a 2 m planting hole.


Thanks, do you mean that the circle of 8cm
boreholes are there for watering, and to attract
the roots of the tree downwards to a depth these
might not reach normally?
And that the roots therefore will be 2 meters
further down in the earth than they normally be?


The circle of holes are indeed for watering. The plastic pipe prevents
the holes from collapsing and conducts the water all the way to the
bottom.

Tree roots often grow quite deep, much more than 2 m. In deep, good
soil, even tomato roots can reach down 3 m.

Yes, there are shallow-rooted trees such as those in the genus Populus
(e.g., aspen, cottonwood, poplar). But these are normally planted only
where others will not thrive because of climate or shallow soils.

Conifers and oaks generally have taproots that go quite deep in search
of water.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
...
In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

Well in opal mining parts of Australaia where it is bothe extremely drya and
extremely hot, some of the miners live underground in houses called 'dug
outs' I know that some tress have been planted and grown in 'underground'
gardens. I've sen pics of them but can't find any online reference to them.
What they look like at ground (or more correctly, at ndnerground level which
is how it's seen from the house) is a normal tree with trunk. At the abobve
groudn level it looks like a tree canopy. Effectivley, the tree is growing
in a hole with it's canopy showing at 'real' ground level.

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?

It can be done and really the pics of the trees I've seen of the treed
growing in these hot dry deep holes are not at all etiolated - just growing
well in a place where they should not be able to grow at all because the
conditions are just too darned harsh.

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:41:26 +1100, "Farm1"
wrote:

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
.. .
In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

Well in opal mining parts of Australaia where it is bothe extremely drya and
extremely hot, some of the miners live underground in houses called 'dug
outs' I know that some tress have been planted and grown in 'underground'
gardens. I've sen pics of them but can't find any online reference to them.
What they look like at ground (or more correctly, at ndnerground level which
is how it's seen from the house) is a normal tree with trunk. At the abobve
groudn level it looks like a tree canopy. Effectivley, the tree is growing
in a hole with it's canopy showing at 'real' ground level.

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?

It can be done and really the pics of the trees I've seen of the treed
growing in these hot dry deep holes are not at all etiolated - just growing
well in a place where they should not be able to grow at all because the
conditions are just too darned harsh.


This is very interesting. What sort of trees are
these, and do they need special treatment to keep
alive?

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:41:26 +1100, "Farm1"
wrote:

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
. ..
In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

Well in opal mining parts of Australaia where it is bothe extremely drya
and
extremely hot, some of the miners live underground in houses called 'dug
outs' I know that some tress have been planted and grown in 'underground'
gardens. I've sen pics of them but can't find any online reference to
them.
What they look like at ground (or more correctly, at ndnerground level
which
is how it's seen from the house) is a normal tree with trunk. At the
abobve
groudn level it looks like a tree canopy. Effectivley, the tree is
growing
in a hole with it's canopy showing at 'real' ground level.

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?

It can be done and really the pics of the trees I've seen of the treed
growing in these hot dry deep holes are not at all etiolated - just
growing
well in a place where they should not be able to grow at all because the
conditions are just too darned harsh.


This is very interesting. What sort of trees are
these, and do they need special treatment to keep
alive?

I remember that one was a lemon but I can't recall what the others were.
The lemon was grown in a smaller hole than the others. No special treatment
was given except the fact that they were grown in the hole (by which I mean
a HUGE hole because it becomes part of the courtyard area of the underground
house). Hole growing givves the house shade once the canopy gets up and
allows the tree to be cared for.

It's hard to convery why this could work or how it's done unless you have
some idea of the harshness of the opal mining areas of Australia. Do a
google on 'opal mining towns Australia' in google images and you'll see what
the landscape is like.

i worte here a few weeks ago aobut a man I know who grows grapes in what he
calls "sun pits". He grows his grapes liek that because its' too cold where
he lives to grown them in the open. In his case, he just dug 2 huge trenchs
into the ground on north facign slopes (north to get sun orientation because
this is the sthn hemisphere). these trenchs were aobt 6 ft deep and he
topped that with Laserlite type corrugated roofing sheets which sometimes
collapsed when kangaroos jumped on them. His 'sun pits' give similar
protection to the grapes as would be gained for anyone growing trees in huge
holes.

I still haven't been able to find any specific pics, but the first one
(which isn't from Australia but will give you and indication of the size of
the hole I have seen pics of). If you think about a tree canpopy appearing
from holes of this size you may understand I'm writing about:
For this one scroll down to the pic with the sentence starting 'about 150
kms away...'
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/boar...p?f=41&t=14872
Here's a cite that talks about general living conditions in opal mining
areas. I fyou take note of the above ground te,mps and those in a dugout,
you should see why a tree would prefer to grow in a hole in such a place:
http://www.grumpytraveller.com/2012/...rs-show-homes/

On Oct 13, 7:41*pm, "Farm1" wrote:

...

Well in opal mining parts of Australaia where it is bothe extremely drya and
extremely hot, some of the miners live underground in houses called 'dug
outs' I know that some tress have been planted and grown in 'underground'
gardens. *I've sen pics of them but can't find any online reference to them.
What they look like at ground (or more correctly, at ndnerground level which
is how it's seen from the house) is a normal tree with trunk. *At the abobve
groudn level it looks like a tree canopy. *Effectivley, the tree is growing
in a hole with it's canopy showing at 'real' ground level.


It can be done and really the pics of the trees I've seen of the treed
growing in these hot dry deep holes are not at all etiolated - just growing
well in a place where they should not be able to grow at all because the
conditions are just too darned harsh.

We have such underground gardens here in California.
Google: Forestiere underground gardens photos.

Baldasere Forestiere from Sicily created the home and gardens in
Fresno CA, over a 40 year period.
Fascinating!

Emilie

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:35:27 +1100, "Farm1"
wrote:

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:41:26 +1100, "Farm1"
wrote:

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
...
In very dry areas, is it possible to bore a
2-meter hole and plant a tree at the bottom?

Well in opal mining parts of Australaia where it is bothe extremely drya
and
extremely hot, some of the miners live underground in houses called 'dug
outs' I know that some tress have been planted and grown in 'underground'
gardens. I've sen pics of them but can't find any online reference to
them.
What they look like at ground (or more correctly, at ndnerground level
which
is how it's seen from the house) is a normal tree with trunk. At the
abobve
groudn level it looks like a tree canopy. Effectivley, the tree is
growing
in a hole with it's canopy showing at 'real' ground level.

The roots are nearer water this way and the hole
will collect any scarce rainwater.

The tree will etiolate upwards into the light
where normal growth will continue.

What do you think?

It can be done and really the pics of the trees I've seen of the treed
growing in these hot dry deep holes are not at all etiolated - just
growing
well in a place where they should not be able to grow at all because the
conditions are just too darned harsh.


This is very interesting. What sort of trees are
these, and do they need special treatment to keep
alive?

I remember that one was a lemon but I can't recall what the others were.
The lemon was grown in a smaller hole than the others. No special treatment
was given except the fact that they were grown in the hole (by which I mean
a HUGE hole because it becomes part of the courtyard area of the underground
house). Hole growing givves the house shade once the canopy gets up and
allows the tree to be cared for.

It's hard to convery why this could work or how it's done unless you have
some idea of the harshness of the opal mining areas of Australia. Do a
google on 'opal mining towns Australia' in google images and you'll see what
the landscape is like.

i worte here a few weeks ago aobut a man I know who grows grapes in what he
calls "sun pits". He grows his grapes liek that because its' too cold where
he lives to grown them in the open. In his case, he just dug 2 huge trenchs
into the ground on north facign slopes (north to get sun orientation because
this is the sthn hemisphere). these trenchs were aobt 6 ft deep and he
topped that with Laserlite type corrugated roofing sheets which sometimes
collapsed when kangaroos jumped on them. His 'sun pits' give similar
protection to the grapes as would be gained for anyone growing trees in huge
holes.

I still haven't been able to find any specific pics, but the first one
(which isn't from Australia but will give you and indication of the size of
the hole I have seen pics of). If you think about a tree canpopy appearing
from holes of this size you may understand I'm writing about:
For this one scroll down to the pic with the sentence starting 'about 150
kms away...'
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/boar...p?f=41&t=14872
Here's a cite that talks about general living conditions in opal mining
areas. I fyou take note of the above ground te,mps and those in a dugout,
you should see why a tree would prefer to grow in a hole in such a place:
http://www.grumpytraveller.com/2012/...rs-show-homes/




Where do they get water in these places. Are
there deep wells?

On Easter Island, gardens are planted in deliberately dug depressions too. The reason in this case is mainly to protect them from the wind. You can grow bananas and avocadoes and stuff like that if you grow them in a hole, but not on the surface. But these are sunken gardens, not individual holes for each plant. The island is extremely well drained because it is mostly permeable lava.

On Lanzarote (Canary islands) vines are grown in little depressions with a wall on the windward side.

I've also seen, indeed stayed in, underground buildings with sunken courtyards in Tunisia. They were used for filming sequences in Star Wars.

Boring holes will definitely make the roots nearer to the source of water. But in very dry areas, where water is very scarce, it would be hard to sustain the life of a tree. Only if that area is an area where rainfall happens almost every week would it be possible to make that tree grow. Flowing ground water won't be sufficient. - J.M.