Hi. My first post here. I'm in the throes of a plumbing nightmare. We
have a lovely 50-year-old oak tree in our front yard that's wreaking
havoc on our 50-year-old terra cotta sewage pipes. The sewer line is
right under the tree. So with old pipes, we've had a recurrent problem
with roots clogging the line, and subsequently causing an overflow of
raw sewage into the basement. It hasn't been pretty. We've been
putting off the inevitable -- having the tree taken down, having the
old sewer dug up, and having a new sewer put in.

My concerns, and I have more than I can count, all keep coming down
to:

--Will roots continue to grow after the oak tree is taken down? Should
the stump be grinded to prevent this? Does anyone know the behavior of
oak trees in this regard? And how deep do oak-tree roots go? Is there
a concern for the landscape or foundation (the tree is terribly close
to the house) once the roots start to die?

--And would you trust a lumber company who might be willing to take
the tree down for free? I'm concerned that they don't have the
tree-sense of a licensed arborist. I've gotten estimates from $1200 to
$2100 from arborists to take the tree down. And the lumber company may
do it for free, so that's awfully tempting. Especially considering the
plumbing costs and cost to lay down a new driveway, partially.

You want to talk about not pretty

I have my 40 something year old son living with me

I live in Mount Pocono.

that ain't pretty

http://www.enter.net/~jbartlo/joseph.htm


"juggler" wrote in message
om...
Hi. My first post here. I'm in the throes of a plumbing nightmare. We
have a lovely 50-year-old oak tree in our front yard that's wreaking
havoc on our 50-year-old terra cotta sewage pipes. The sewer line is
right under the tree. So with old pipes, we've had a recurrent problem
with roots clogging the line, and subsequently causing an overflow of
raw sewage into the basement. It hasn't been pretty. We've been
putting off the inevitable -- having the tree taken down, having the
old sewer dug up, and having a new sewer put in.

My concerns, and I have more than I can count, all keep coming down
to:

--Will roots continue to grow after the oak tree is taken down? Should
the stump be grinded to prevent this? Does anyone know the behavior of
oak trees in this regard? And how deep do oak-tree roots go? Is there
a concern for the landscape or foundation (the tree is terribly close
to the house) once the roots start to die?

--And would you trust a lumber company who might be willing to take
the tree down for free? I'm concerned that they don't have the
tree-sense of a licensed arborist. I've gotten estimates from $1200 to
$2100 from arborists to take the tree down. And the lumber company may
do it for free, so that's awfully tempting. Especially considering the
plumbing costs and cost to lay down a new driveway, partially.

so you have NO option of re-routing the plumbing?

it would be a DARN shame to kill off such an awesome tree....

"juggler" wrote in message
om...
Hi. My first post here. I'm in the throes of a plumbing nightmare. We
have a lovely 50-year-old oak tree in our front yard that's wreaking
havoc on our 50-year-old terra cotta sewage pipes. The sewer line is
right under the tree. So with old pipes, we've had a recurrent problem
with roots clogging the line, and subsequently causing an overflow of
raw sewage into the basement. It hasn't been pretty. We've been
putting off the inevitable -- having the tree taken down, having the
old sewer dug up, and having a new sewer put in.

My concerns, and I have more than I can count, all keep coming down
to:

--Will roots continue to grow after the oak tree is taken down? Should
the stump be grinded to prevent this? Does anyone know the behavior of
oak trees in this regard? And how deep do oak-tree roots go? Is there
a concern for the landscape or foundation (the tree is terribly close
to the house) once the roots start to die?

--And would you trust a lumber company who might be willing to take
the tree down for free? I'm concerned that they don't have the
tree-sense of a licensed arborist. I've gotten estimates from $1200 to
$2100 from arborists to take the tree down. And the lumber company may
do it for free, so that's awfully tempting. Especially considering the
plumbing costs and cost to lay down a new driveway, partially.

1. A lumber company or mill wants the wood for milling and sale. Fine oak
wood might be somewhat scarce in your area, or perhaps they have a portable
mill that they can bring to the site and simply want to put it to good use.
I would ask for 3 references from other people who have had trees removed by
them.

2. Oak roots won't sprout in perpetuity after the tree is cut down, but it
would be a good idea (and certainly as part of the 'free' service the lumber
company should grind the stump to below ground level.

3. Your quotes sound reasonable, especially if climbing and rigging is
involved in bringing the tree down.

Dave

Why pull the tree down anyway? If you like it, keep it and just replace the drain. Those old terra cotta pipes were flawd from the start, terra cotta lets water seap through and actively attracts roots towards it, which then later invade the pipe and wreck it. They also have lots of joins with gaps that let the roots in. It should also be mentioned waste water is full of nitrogen which roots are eager to get at.

Modern plastic pipes are the best in this case, they don't let water seap through, so the few roots that grow towards it will pass over it. And, should an expanding root shift the pipe it's flexible enough to move slowly with the roots and not snap or become lose at the joints. However, it's best to keep it clear of large plants and route it under a lawn or driveway where possible - but it will survive almost all stray roots easily.

The cowardly, anonymous pest posting as Mommy Bartlo wrote:

You want to talk about not pretty

I have my 40 something year old son living with me

I live in Mount Pocono.

that ain't pretty

http://www.enter.net/~jbartlo/joseph.htm

Go to hell, pest and take your lies with you. You know nothing about me,
nothing about her, and your pathetic, goddamn self is trying to assert I am
doing anything wrong. No pest - YOU are the useless coward hiding behind
a screen name and posting bull---- about me.

STOP REACTING! plonk him/her and get on with your life

your feeding the fire.....

"Joseph Bartlo" wrote in message
...
The cowardly, anonymous pest posting as Mommy Bartlo wrote:

You want to talk about not pretty

I have my 40 something year old son living with me

I live in Mount Pocono.

that ain't pretty

http://www.enter.net/~jbartlo/joseph.htm

Go to hell, pest and take your lies with you. You know nothing about me,
nothing about her, and your pathetic, goddamn self is trying to assert I
am
doing anything wrong. No pest - YOU are the useless coward hiding behind
a screen name and posting bull---- about me.

perhaps you haven't met my boy JoJo yet. Take a gander at ne.weather and
you'll see how good a job he does ignoring the 'cowardly anonymous pests'

what a DUMMY my JoJo is. If he left it alone for one day it'd go away. but
he can't


--MommyBartlo--


"joe s" wrote in message
...
STOP REACTING! plonk him/her and get on with your life

your feeding the fire.....

"Joseph Bartlo" wrote in message
...
The cowardly, anonymous pest posting as Mommy Bartlo wrote:

You want to talk about not pretty

I have my 40 something year old son living with me

I live in Mount Pocono.

that ain't pretty

http://www.enter.net/~jbartlo/joseph.htm

Go to hell, pest and take your lies with you. You know nothing about
me,
nothing about her, and your pathetic, goddamn self is trying to assert I
am
doing anything wrong. No pest - YOU are the useless coward hiding
behind
a screen name and posting bull---- about me.

The message
from (juggler) contains these words:

Hi. My first post here. I'm in the throes of a plumbing nightmare. We
have a lovely 50-year-old oak tree in our front yard that's wreaking
havoc on our 50-year-old terra cotta sewage pipes.

--And would you trust a lumber company who might be willing to take
the tree down for free? I'm concerned that they don't have the
tree-sense of a licensed arborist. I've gotten estimates from $1200 to
$2100 from arborists to take the tree down. And the lumber company may
do it for free, so that's awfully tempting. Especially considering the
plumbing costs and cost to lay down a new driveway, partially.

The lumber company's main interest will be in getting the tree down in
lengths they want to use. An arborist's only interest will be in
minimising the risk to your property by dismantling the tree in smaller
bits. Large oaks, or parts of them, are incredibly heavy and it's a
dangerous and highly skilled job to take one down near a house.

Whichever company you choose should carry an arborists full public
liability insurance; just in case they damage your property or a
neighbour's, or someone gets hurt. Insist on seeing their current
insurance certificate before you accept a contract; its normal practise
so good operators won't mind.

Don't employ a company that hedges or objects to that; it may mean no
insurers would cover them, and you can guess why. Insurance for
treefelling work is expensive, which can explain how uninsured cowboys
workers undercut the price of proper professionals.

Janet.

(juggler) wrote in message . com...
Hi. My first post here. I'm in the throes of a plumbing nightmare. We
have a lovely 50-year-old oak tree in our front yard that's wreaking
havoc on our 50-year-old terra cotta sewage pipes. The sewer line is
right under the tree. So with old pipes, we've had a recurrent problem
with roots clogging the line, and subsequently causing an overflow of
raw sewage into the basement. It hasn't been pretty. We've been
putting off the inevitable -- having the tree taken down, having the
old sewer dug up, and having a new sewer put in.

My concerns, and I have more than I can count, all keep coming down
to:

--Will roots continue to grow after the oak tree is taken down? Should
the stump be grinded to prevent this? Does anyone know the behavior of
oak trees in this regard? And how deep do oak-tree roots go? Is there
a concern for the landscape or foundation (the tree is terribly close
to the house) once the roots start to die?

Once the tree is cut, the roots should be of little or no concern,
especially if you have the stump ground up. Occasionally they can
sprout from the stump, but usually only if they are relatively young.
A 50 year old should probably not sprout, or if it does, not much.
But grounding up the stump (which is what most people would do anyway)
will guarantee complete death.

Oak tree roots do go rather deep for trees, but once its dead it
should be of little concern as far as anything it is close to.

--And would you trust a lumber company who might be willing to take
the tree down for free? I'm concerned that they don't have the
tree-sense of a licensed arborist. I've gotten estimates from $1200 to
$2100 from arborists to take the tree down. And the lumber company may
do it for free, so that's awfully tempting. Especially considering the
plumbing costs and cost to lay down a new driveway, partially.

Well just remember that the arborists will do it carefully, piece by
piece, making sure that no damage comes to other parts of your
property. I'd bet the lumber company will want the tree whole (or at
least the trunk whole), therefore not cutting in pieces and risking
property damage. I'd go with the arborist unless I was extremely
strapped for cash. Also I doubt the arborist will have a
stump-grounder (or whaterver the machine is called), you'd probably
end up calling an arborist (or whoever does that) anyway.

====
Raymond C Martin Jr
http://www.njfreeways.com/weather/

On 29 Oct 2003 11:57:13 -0800, (juggler) wrote:


--Will roots continue to grow after the oak tree is taken down? Should
the stump be grinded to prevent this? Does anyone know the behavior of
oak trees in this regard? And how deep do oak-tree roots go? Is there
a concern for the landscape or foundation (the tree is terribly close
to the house) once the roots start to die?
I second the post that says keep the tree and lose the terra cotta
plumbing. The roots won't enter plastic piping unless it is installed
incorrectly (i.e., leaks). There are a few possibilities to make this
happen:
1. trench and dig out the old line and replace. This may be fairly
innocuous or it may be devastating to the tree, depending on how close
to the trunk the line passes. I'd actually avoid this option because
of the root loss that would occur, but if you can stay at least one
foot away from the trunk for every inch of trunk diameter (measure
about 4 feet above grade) you're probably okay, and this would be the
cheapest way to go.
2. Reroute the line around the root zone (again, stay a foot from the
trunk for every inch in trunk diameter). Just leave the (now defunct)
clay pipe where it is.
4. Have the trench dug by hand, and instruct the digger not to cut any
roots bigger than 2" diameter. One way to do this is with a tool
called an air spade, which can blow the dirt out of the trench while
causing virtually no root loss. You might have to call a few
companies to find one that has this tool, or you might not find anyone
in the area that has one. It's about $1000 to buy one--still cheaper
than removing the tree. Maybe you can find a company that will do the
work if you buy the tool (www.air-spade.com). To use it, someone will
have to rent an industrial air compressor (about $150/day). Note: I
am not affiliated with this company and get no commission or other
benefit from this recommendation.
4. Tunnel under the roots if you must route the line inside the
critical root zone. This is the most expensive option (well, probably
less than buying an air spade), but still far cheaper than removing
the tree. Again, the challenge may be finding someone with the
equipment. Try well diggers (water and/or oil) if no tree services
can do it.


--And would you trust a lumber company who might be willing to take
the tree down for free? I'm concerned that they don't have the
tree-sense of a licensed arborist. I've gotten estimates from $1200 to
$2100 from arborists to take the tree down. And the lumber company may
do it for free, so that's awfully tempting. Especially considering the
plumbing costs and cost to lay down a new driveway, partially.
I'll second the post that said get references before hiring a lumber
company to remove a tree. Depending on the location, removal might be
relatively simple, but trees are still unpredictable and someone
without much experience could easily see things go horribly awry in a
hurry. Also, as was already mentioned, the lumber guys will want to
drop the trunk (maybe the whole tree) in one fell (no pun intended)
swoop. Even if it goes the right direction, this will result in more
damage to your lawn than a removal by a qualified arborist piecing out
the tree with rigging. And, again seconding another post, insurance
for this type of work is very specific (and expensive). A lumber
company probably does not have it, and you'll be on the hook for any
damages that may occur.

Why a new drive? If it must be damaged to replace part of the pipe,
this may make tunneling even more viable--tunnel under the tree and
the drive and save the cost of tree removal and the cost of the new
drive.

Good luck,

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist
For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

Hi. To follow up on what you all were saying, here are a few more
details...

I'd love to save the tree and not have to take it down. I was told by
each plumber (about 4 estimates) that in order to take out the old
sewer and put down a new sewer line, much of the tree's roots would be
cut away and compromised. So much so that they would not guarantee the
safety of the house. In other words, the tree could fall. The arborist
I would be going with, should I decide to go that route, himself said
that the oak tree will slowly die by what the plumbers will be cutting
away. So he, too, recommended cutting it down. He, however, said there
was no imminent rush (as the plumbers said there was). So I'm not sure
there's an easy answer around not cutting the tree down.

As for the driveway, it appears the plumber I'll be using has a new
type of mechanism for laying pipes. It's called pipe bursting. (Anyone
heard of it??) It's, he says, the least invasive type of pipe laying.
What it does is burst the existing pipe while laying down the new one.
It would involve, supposedly, just two holes in the ground.
Unfortunately, with the layout of my house, the two holes would both
likely involve the driveway. The bottom hole would be around the
clean-out (which happens to be right smack dab at the base of the
tree. The clean-out is even on a slant because of the tree's roots.)
This bottom hole would be right at the base of the driveway, as well.
The tree is about 4 feet away from the driveway. The top hole would be
on the side of the house, at the top of the driveway.

Thanks to all for your thoughts and suggestions. Much appreciated. If
you have any other thoughts, please post them. Thanks again.



(Babberney) wrote in message ...
On 29 Oct 2003 11:57:13 -0800, (juggler) wrote:


--Will roots continue to grow after the oak tree is taken down? Should
the stump be grinded to prevent this? Does anyone know the behavior of
oak trees in this regard? And how deep do oak-tree roots go? Is there
a concern for the landscape or foundation (the tree is terribly close
to the house) once the roots start to die?
I second the post that says keep the tree and lose the terra cotta
plumbing. The roots won't enter plastic piping unless it is installed
incorrectly (i.e., leaks). There are a few possibilities to make this
happen:
1. trench and dig out the old line and replace. This may be fairly
innocuous or it may be devastating to the tree, depending on how close
to the trunk the line passes. I'd actually avoid this option because
of the root loss that would occur, but if you can stay at least one
foot away from the trunk for every inch of trunk diameter (measure
about 4 feet above grade) you're probably okay, and this would be the
cheapest way to go.
2. Reroute the line around the root zone (again, stay a foot from the
trunk for every inch in trunk diameter). Just leave the (now defunct)
clay pipe where it is.
4. Have the trench dug by hand, and instruct the digger not to cut any
roots bigger than 2" diameter. One way to do this is with a tool
called an air spade, which can blow the dirt out of the trench while
causing virtually no root loss. You might have to call a few
companies to find one that has this tool, or you might not find anyone
in the area that has one. It's about $1000 to buy one--still cheaper
than removing the tree. Maybe you can find a company that will do the
work if you buy the tool (www.air-spade.com). To use it, someone will
have to rent an industrial air compressor (about $150/day). Note: I
am not affiliated with this company and get no commission or other
benefit from this recommendation.
4. Tunnel under the roots if you must route the line inside the
critical root zone. This is the most expensive option (well, probably
less than buying an air spade), but still far cheaper than removing
the tree. Again, the challenge may be finding someone with the
equipment. Try well diggers (water and/or oil) if no tree services
can do it.


--And would you trust a lumber company who might be willing to take
the tree down for free? I'm concerned that they don't have the
tree-sense of a licensed arborist. I've gotten estimates from $1200 to
$2100 from arborists to take the tree down. And the lumber company may
do it for free, so that's awfully tempting. Especially considering the
plumbing costs and cost to lay down a new driveway, partially.
I'll second the post that said get references before hiring a lumber
company to remove a tree. Depending on the location, removal might be
relatively simple, but trees are still unpredictable and someone
without much experience could easily see things go horribly awry in a
hurry. Also, as was already mentioned, the lumber guys will want to
drop the trunk (maybe the whole tree) in one fell (no pun intended)
swoop. Even if it goes the right direction, this will result in more
damage to your lawn than a removal by a qualified arborist piecing out
the tree with rigging. And, again seconding another post, insurance
for this type of work is very specific (and expensive). A lumber
company probably does not have it, and you'll be on the hook for any
damages that may occur.

Why a new drive? If it must be damaged to replace part of the pipe,
this may make tunneling even more viable--tunnel under the tree and
the drive and save the cost of tree removal and the cost of the new
drive.

Good luck,

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist
For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

Well, I still think it's worth saving the tree, not only because it's a good landscaping element you won't get back easily, but also the value a good tree can add to you house.

Pipe bursting would most likely not damage the roots excessively, but it will break any which have grown in to or around the pipe. The process is familiar to me and many people use it to save money or lawns/drives built over the pipes, aparently it works very well. It probably will damage your driveway if you have to dig the hole in it, but you should assess your driveway's value and how replaceable or repairable it is. Some driveways like mine are made from bricks and you can simply put the bricks back after lifting them, concrete ones will look crummy with big patches in them, but you can allways look at one of the re-finishing options that will add a whole new image to your garden. I've seen them made to look like brick or stone with thin bits of stone/brick cemented to them. Or you could build raised planting beds over the patches to hide them and improve the garden.

On 31 Oct 2003 14:35:22 -0800, (juggler) wrote:

Hi. To follow up on what you all were saying, here are a few more
details...

I'd love to save the tree and not have to take it down. I was told by
each plumber (about 4 estimates) that in order to take out the old
sewer and put down a new sewer line, much of the tree's roots would be
cut away and compromised. So much so that they would not guarantee the
safety of the house. In other words, the tree could fall. The arborist
I would be going with, should I decide to go that route, himself said
that the oak tree will slowly die by what the plumbers will be cutting
away. So he, too, recommended cutting it down. He, however, said there
was no imminent rush (as the plumbers said there was). So I'm not sure
there's an easy answer around not cutting the tree down.

But if you read my earlier post, you'll see several options that your
plumber candidates apparently don't know about. Certainly I agree
with the arborist that you don't really need to do anything in a
rush--If you just snake out the line periodically you can keep the
roots cut back. But the arbortist also seems a bit ignorant of the
options that would allow replacing the plumbing without damaging roots
much. Did you visit the ISA web site?
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare...nstruction.asp is a
good resource for information about tree preservation during
construction-type activities.

As for the driveway, it appears the plumber I'll be using has a new
type of mechanism for laying pipes. It's called pipe bursting. (Anyone
heard of it??) It's, he says, the least invasive type of pipe laying.
What it does is burst the existing pipe while laying down the new one.
It would involve, supposedly, just two holes in the ground.
Unfortunately, with the layout of my house, the two holes would both
likely involve the driveway. The bottom hole would be around the
clean-out (which happens to be right smack dab at the base of the
tree. The clean-out is even on a slant because of the tree's roots.)
This bottom hole would be right at the base of the driveway, as well.
The tree is about 4 feet away from the driveway. The top hole would be
on the side of the house, at the top of the driveway.

This seems to contradict your first paragraph--doesn't it mean one of
your plumber options can replace the plumbing without cutting roots?

I've never heard of this method, though. I'd call more plumbers and
arborists if I were you (and, if necessary, a well driller who can do
horizontal drilling, i.e., tunneling). Maybe bursting the pipe is a
good idea--I'd like to think so--but I wouldn't try it unless I could
find more than one person to sanction it.
Meanwhile, you can find an ISA Certified Arborist in your area he
http://www.isa-arbor.com/findArborist/findarborist.asp
You might even want to hire a member of the American Association of
Consulting Arborists:
http://www.asca-consultants.org/directory/index.cfm

Sounds like you'd really like to keep this tree, and there's no reason
apparent from your posts thus far to suggest you can't do it. Maybe
you've omitted some important info, but I encoursge you to do a little
more homework to find out how to save your oak. In the words of a
tree-guy bumper sticker, "Sure, trees are a renewable resource, but
who wants to wait for the results?"

Keith
For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

Would thin-gauge copper pipe be better? Most plants have an aversion for
copper.


"Bry" wrote in message
s.com...
Why pull the tree down anyway? If you like it, keep it and just replace
the drain. Those old terra cotta pipes were flawd from the start, terra
cotta lets water seap through and actively attracts roots towards it,
which then later invade the pipe and wreck it. They also have lots of
joins with gaps that let the roots in. It should also be mentioned
waste water is full of nitrogen which roots are eager to get at.

Modern plastic pipes are the best in this case, they don't let water
seap through, so the few roots that grow towards it will pass over it.
And, should an expanding root shift the pipe it's flexible enough to
move slowly with the roots and not snap or become lose at the joints.
However, it's best to keep it clear of large plants and route it under
a lawn or driveway where possible - but it will survive almost all
stray roots easily.
--
Bry
------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted via www.GardenBanter.co.uk