sams wrote [in part]:
Iam thinking of putting a 2' tall garden stone retaining wall in my
back yard. Probably for 15' long, approximately 1/3 of the backyard
width. My backyard is higher than the front yard. Iam in a rolling
slope. And thinking of filling this with whatever good and cheap and
make it look like a patio or flower bed or a water fall.


If you are planning a RETAINING wall (as you said), think very
carefully. This is a wall to keep the slope from failing, from
sliding down. You will need deep footings, and it will have to be
anchored into the slope. This is the kind of wall that often uses
hollow blocks treaded on steal bars imbedded into the foundation.
After the blocks are stacked, the hollows are filled with
concrete.

If you are planning a slough wall, however, the advice in other
replies is quite good. A slough wall prevents slough (of course),
which is the trickling down of loose soil and surface erosion.

If you want to build a wall adjacent to a slope and then fill in
behind the wall to create a terrace, you will need something
between a retaining wall and a slough wall. Wet soil on a slope
can create significant pressure against whatever is holding it in
place. Such a wall needs to be reinforced. However, if the fill
behind it does not extend higher than the top of the wall, you
might not need to anchor the wall into the slope. Such a wall
should slant towards the slope and not be vertical.

--

David E. Ross
http://www.rossde.com/

Concerned about someone snooping into your E-mail?
Use PGP. See my http://www.rossde.com/PGP/

hermine stover wrote in message . ..
On 11 Nov 2003 15:58:41 -0800, (Lee) wrote:

years ago, in the '30's one of my aunts had a lot...snip.. she patiently gathered them each
day as weather and time permited and built a rock, morterless wall
...snip.. new owners, had torn
it all down saying that it had become rat infested....

snp....However, i have a feeling the disposessed
rats will find somewhere else, having lived in Boston, a city famous
for waterfront rats larger than a medium sized cat.
I LOVE the story about your AUNT!

my husband is from MO.

hermine

curious..wondering if the wall could have been sort of "caulked" with
cement? perhaps holes/spaces daubed in with mud then cement...??? it
would be cruel to the vermin in the wall, but they couldn't spread out
in the neighborhood. :

or introduce a few king snakes??? oh welllllll...too late now!!!
lee h

But without mortar, old walls were built with carefully dressed
stones. The joints were so perfect, not even a knife blade could
be inserted. And the walls were quite thick since only gravity
kept them from falling.


that IS one kind of mortarless construction, but the USA is full of
dry stone walls made of local harvested ROCKS, which were cheap, being
free for the taking, and then selected to fit together with a minimum
of dressing with tools. they are very rustic, or, some might say,
crude, but they look very natural in the landscape, and really, aside
from the labour, (which is good for a person) they are not that
difficult to make. some folks consider them very important as regards
historic structures in the USA. and we have an accounting here of a
Missouri stone wall put together over time by a person's Auntie! who
was not represented as a stone mason.

hermine stover wrote:

I previously wrote:

But without mortar, old walls were built with carefully dressed
stones. The joints were so perfect, not even a knife blade could
be inserted. And the walls were quite thick since only gravity
kept them from falling.

that IS one kind of mortarless construction, but the USA is full of
dry stone walls made of local harvested ROCKS, which were cheap, being
free for the taking, and then selected to fit together with a minimum
of dressing with tools. they are very rustic, or, some might say,
crude, but they look very natural in the landscape, and really, aside
from the labour, (which is good for a person) they are not that
difficult to make. some folks consider them very important as regards
historic structures in the USA. and we have an accounting here of a
Missouri stone wall put together over time by a person's Auntie! who
was not represented as a stone mason.

However, my reply was to a rference to a message that claimed:
"Mortar is comparatively recent in this scheme of things; HUGE
structures were made without it." [Original writer's emphasis on
"HUGE", not mine.] Yes, boundary walls are often made without
mortar or precise dressing. However, I cannot picture someone's
auntie bulding the Great Wall of China without at least dressed
stones. And remember what is the subject of this thread.

--

David E. Ross
http://www.rossde.com/

Concerned about someone snooping into your E-mail?
Use PGP. See my http://www.rossde.com/PGP/

David Ross wrote in message ...
hermine stover wrote:
was not represented as a stone mason.

However, my reply was to a rference to a message that claimed:
"Mortar is comparatively recent in this scheme of things; HUGE
structures were made without it." [Original writer's emphasis on
"HUGE", not mine.] Yes, boundary walls are often made without
mortar or precise dressing. However, I cannot picture someone's
auntie bulding the Great Wall of China without at least dressed
stones. And remember what is the subject of this thread.

gardens.. but then walls are a part of many gardens...
no, aunt ethyl was not a stone mason, just a stubborn little lady who
worked in a shoe factory, was raising 6 children at the time and
wanted 'something better' and worked her but off trying to create it.
and she made the best danged gooseberry pie you could ever imagine.
and, bless her heart, she couldn't afford morter! ....but..she had a
LOT of rocks! and i might add.. balls!! garbonzos! even if she was a
lady. may she rest in peace.. : )
lee h

David Ross wrote in message ...

If you are planning a RETAINING wall (as you said), think very
carefully. This is a wall to keep the slope from failing, from
sliding down. You will need deep footings, and it will have to be
anchored into the slope. This is the kind of wall that often uses
hollow blocks treaded on steal bars imbedded into the foundation.
After the blocks are stacked, the hollows are filled with
concrete.

If you are planning a slough wall, however, the advice in other
replies is quite good. A slough wall prevents slough (of course),
which is the trickling down of loose soil and surface erosion.

If you want to build a wall adjacent to a slope and then fill in
behind the wall to create a terrace, you will need something
between a retaining wall and a slough wall. Wet soil on a slope
can create significant pressure against whatever is holding it in
place. Such a wall needs to be reinforced. However, if the fill
behind it does not extend higher than the top of the wall, you
might not need to anchor the wall into the slope. Such a wall
should slant towards the slope and not be vertical.


David, i am the poster who told of the aunt who build the rock wall
and it is a fact. and you are right about building retaining walls
like you say; it has a lot to do with the terrain and the reason for
building it. the wall aunt ethyl built, for all its stability would
not have held up with the mudslides like in California. even deeply
founded walls could not have stood up to that. here in texas a large
wall really needs a good footing if it's being build to hold a slough
and a good rock base to keep the black clay from tearing it apart from
expansion and contraction and needs to be build with a very wide base
and leaning toward the bank it is holding. but a low wall in a small
garden not in the middle of a slough will usually do fairly well here.

best regards, lee h

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:256236

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:50:50 -0800, David Ross
wrote:

...my reply was to a rference to a message that claimed:
"Mortar is comparatively recent in this scheme of things; HUGE
structures were made without it." [Original writer's emphasis on
"HUGE", not mine.] Yes, boundary walls are often made without
mortar or precise dressing. However, I cannot picture someone's
auntie bulding the Great Wall of China without at least dressed
stones. And remember what is the subject of this thread.

I agree with David. I mentioned to a friend, experienced in
bricklaying and many other construction projects, that I thought it
would be nice to have a retaining wall between lawn and sidewalk
because of a difficult-to-mow 15" slope -- just a border to the lawn
and an 16" wall on on the sidewalk side. He explained to me the
weights and pressures involved, and I caught his drift. And have seen
many similar structures in the neighborhood gradually bulge and decay.
Freestanding, unmortered stone walls last for centuries (don't people
replace stones from time to time?), but *not* when there's constant
stress/weight on one side -- i.e., "retaining."

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:42:53 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:50:50 -0800, David Ross
wrote:

Freestanding, unmortered stone walls last for centuries (don't people
replace stones from time to time?), but *not* when there's constant
stress/weight on one side -- i.e., "retaining."


I forgot to mention cheating. a person could install rebar or other
kinds of iron reinforcement, pounding it into the earth, or even
setting it in a small underground concrete pour, and THEN pile the
stones without mortar against it. you could even throw some
wired-in-place horizontal reinforcements in there.
I have no idea how much heaving there is, how much earth movement, and
even mortared stone walls will lose their integrity and fall down if
there is enough earth movement. i was just speaking on behalf of dry
stone walls EVERYWHERE, which have persisted for centuries, with and
without the occasional repair.

now, if you are using natural stones, do not expect mortar to glue
them together when you have heaving, earthquakes, and are building on
swampy land.

But that is just ME, i would not abandon an idea just because everyone
told me what a terrible idea it is.

hermine

In my experience with dry retaining walls the most important thing to
remember is drainage behind the wall. Moisture and freeze or just weight
from the water is this down fall of most walls. as far as dry stacked walls
go check these out http://www.pennsylvaniabluestone.com/johnson/projects/
We are known ( this area northeastern Pa. USA)for some of the nicest dry
stacked walls any where. Trees and roots also bulge a wall but if there is
proper drainge on a retaining wall and the stones are large enough or
stacked correctly no problem should develope in any climate. I will try to
get some pics of real large retaining walls dry stacked in this area that
have not budged an inch in well over a century or more. Repairing these wall
from damge from auto moblies and machinery or moving them to make way for
roadways. These walls with the best drainage with stood the test of time.
"hermine stover" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:42:53 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:50:50 -0800, David Ross
wrote:

Freestanding, unmortered stone walls last for centuries (don't people
replace stones from time to time?), but *not* when there's constant
stress/weight on one side -- i.e., "retaining."


I forgot to mention cheating. a person could install rebar or other
kinds of iron reinforcement, pounding it into the earth, or even
setting it in a small underground concrete pour, and THEN pile the
stones without mortar against it. you could even throw some
wired-in-place horizontal reinforcements in there.
I have no idea how much heaving there is, how much earth movement, and
even mortared stone walls will lose their integrity and fall down if
there is enough earth movement. i was just speaking on behalf of dry
stone walls EVERYWHERE, which have persisted for centuries, with and
without the occasional repair.

now, if you are using natural stones, do not expect mortar to glue
them together when you have heaving, earthquakes, and are building on
swampy land.

But that is just ME, i would not abandon an idea just because everyone
told me what a terrible idea it is.

hermine

In my experience with dry retaining walls the most important thing to
remember is drainage behind the wall. Moisture and freeze or just weight
from the water is this down fall of most walls. as far as dry stacked walls
go check these out http://www.pennsylvaniabluestone.com/johnson/projects/
We are known ( this area northeastern Pa. USA)for some of the nicest dry
stacked walls any where. Trees and roots also bulge a wall but if there is
proper drainge on a retaining wall and the stones are large enough or
stacked correctly no problem should develope in any climate. I will try to
get some pics of real large retaining walls dry stacked in this area that
have not budged an inch in well over a century or more. Repairing these wall
from damge from auto moblies and machinery or moving them to make way for
roadways. These walls with the best drainage with stood the test of time.
"hermine stover" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:42:53 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:50:50 -0800, David Ross
wrote:

Freestanding, unmortered stone walls last for centuries (don't people
replace stones from time to time?), but *not* when there's constant
stress/weight on one side -- i.e., "retaining."


I forgot to mention cheating. a person could install rebar or other
kinds of iron reinforcement, pounding it into the earth, or even
setting it in a small underground concrete pour, and THEN pile the
stones without mortar against it. you could even throw some
wired-in-place horizontal reinforcements in there.
I have no idea how much heaving there is, how much earth movement, and
even mortared stone walls will lose their integrity and fall down if
there is enough earth movement. i was just speaking on behalf of dry
stone walls EVERYWHERE, which have persisted for centuries, with and
without the occasional repair.

now, if you are using natural stones, do not expect mortar to glue
them together when you have heaving, earthquakes, and are building on
swampy land.

But that is just ME, i would not abandon an idea just because everyone
told me what a terrible idea it is.

hermine

Bill,

Have your guys done work down near Washington, Virginia by chance?

Dave

"Bill" wrote in message
news
In my experience with dry retaining walls the most important thing to
remember is drainage behind the wall. Moisture and freeze or just weight
from the water is this down fall of most walls. as far as dry stacked
walls
go check these out http://www.pennsylvaniabluestone.com/johnson/projects/
We are known ( this area northeastern Pa. USA)for some of the nicest dry
stacked walls any where. Trees and roots also bulge a wall but if there is
proper drainge on a retaining wall and the stones are large enough or
stacked correctly no problem should develope in any climate. I will try to
get some pics of real large retaining walls dry stacked in this area that
have not budged an inch in well over a century or more. Repairing these
wall
from damge from auto moblies and machinery or moving them to make way for
roadways. These walls with the best drainage with stood the test of time.
"hermine stover" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:42:53 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:50:50 -0800, David Ross
wrote:

Freestanding, unmortered stone walls last for centuries (don't people
replace stones from time to time?), but *not* when there's constant
stress/weight on one side -- i.e., "retaining."


I forgot to mention cheating. a person could install rebar or other
kinds of iron reinforcement, pounding it into the earth, or even
setting it in a small underground concrete pour, and THEN pile the
stones without mortar against it. you could even throw some
wired-in-place horizontal reinforcements in there.
I have no idea how much heaving there is, how much earth movement, and
even mortared stone walls will lose their integrity and fall down if
there is enough earth movement. i was just speaking on behalf of dry
stone walls EVERYWHERE, which have persisted for centuries, with and
without the occasional repair.

now, if you are using natural stones, do not expect mortar to glue
them together when you have heaving, earthquakes, and are building on
swampy land.

But that is just ME, i would not abandon an idea just because everyone
told me what a terrible idea it is.

hermine

No Dave.
As a matter of fact this work
http://www.pennsylvaniabluestone.com/johnson/projects/
was done by a man named Joe Spola . We supply stone for walls and flagstone
from our quarries. But this guy is a master stone mason.The serpentine wall
has a marble race through Three pipes allow you to race marbles down it
interior to the bottom . check out the pics. Its pretty cool..
"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Bill,

Have your guys done work down near Washington, Virginia by chance?

Dave

"Bill" wrote in message
news
In my experience with dry retaining walls the most important thing to
remember is drainage behind the wall. Moisture and freeze or just weight
from the water is this down fall of most walls. as far as dry stacked
walls
go check these out
http://www.pennsylvaniabluestone.com/johnson/projects/
We are known ( this area northeastern Pa. USA)for some of the nicest dry
stacked walls any where. Trees and roots also bulge a wall but if there
is
proper drainge on a retaining wall and the stones are large enough or
stacked correctly no problem should develope in any climate. I will try
to
get some pics of real large retaining walls dry stacked in this area
that
have not budged an inch in well over a century or more. Repairing these
wall
from damge from auto moblies and machinery or moving them to make way
for
roadways. These walls with the best drainage with stood the test of
time.
"hermine stover" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:42:53 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:50:50 -0800, David Ross
wrote:

Freestanding, unmortered stone walls last for centuries (don't people
replace stones from time to time?), but *not* when there's constant
stress/weight on one side -- i.e., "retaining."


I forgot to mention cheating. a person could install rebar or other
kinds of iron reinforcement, pounding it into the earth, or even
setting it in a small underground concrete pour, and THEN pile the
stones without mortar against it. you could even throw some
wired-in-place horizontal reinforcements in there.
I have no idea how much heaving there is, how much earth movement, and
even mortared stone walls will lose their integrity and fall down if
there is enough earth movement. i was just speaking on behalf of dry
stone walls EVERYWHERE, which have persisted for centuries, with and
without the occasional repair.

now, if you are using natural stones, do not expect mortar to glue
them together when you have heaving, earthquakes, and are building on
swampy land.

But that is just ME, i would not abandon an idea just because everyone
told me what a terrible idea it is.

hermine

There is a superb, and I do mean superb, stone wall surrounding the
headquarters of BET (Black Entertainment) down there, which I drive by from
time to time. The work is just unimpeachable, and looked quite similar to a
few of your examples. Thanks,

Dave

"Bill" wrote in message
...
No Dave.
As a matter of fact this work
http://www.pennsylvaniabluestone.com/johnson/projects/
was done by a man named Joe Spola . We supply stone for walls and
flagstone
from our quarries. But this guy is a master stone mason.The serpentine
wall
has a marble race through Three pipes allow you to race marbles down it
interior to the bottom . check out the pics. Its pretty cool..
"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Bill,

Have your guys done work down near Washington, Virginia by chance?

Dave

"Bill" wrote in message
news
In my experience with dry retaining walls the most important thing to
remember is drainage behind the wall. Moisture and freeze or just
weight
from the water is this down fall of most walls. as far as dry stacked
walls
go check these out
http://www.pennsylvaniabluestone.com/johnson/projects/
We are known ( this area northeastern Pa. USA)for some of the nicest
dry
stacked walls any where. Trees and roots also bulge a wall but if
there
is
proper drainge on a retaining wall and the stones are large enough or
stacked correctly no problem should develope in any climate. I will
try
to
get some pics of real large retaining walls dry stacked in this area
that
have not budged an inch in well over a century or more. Repairing
these
wall
from damge from auto moblies and machinery or moving them to make way
for
roadways. These walls with the best drainage with stood the test of
time.
"hermine stover" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:42:53 GMT, Frogleg
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:50:50 -0800, David Ross
wrote:

Freestanding, unmortered stone walls last for centuries (don't
people
replace stones from time to time?), but *not* when there's constant
stress/weight on one side -- i.e., "retaining."


I forgot to mention cheating. a person could install rebar or other
kinds of iron reinforcement, pounding it into the earth, or even
setting it in a small underground concrete pour, and THEN pile the
stones without mortar against it. you could even throw some
wired-in-place horizontal reinforcements in there.
I have no idea how much heaving there is, how much earth movement,
and
even mortared stone walls will lose their integrity and fall down if
there is enough earth movement. i was just speaking on behalf of dry
stone walls EVERYWHERE, which have persisted for centuries, with and
without the occasional repair.

now, if you are using natural stones, do not expect mortar to glue
them together when you have heaving, earthquakes, and are building
on
swampy land.

But that is just ME, i would not abandon an idea just because
everyone
told me what a terrible idea it is.

hermine