Please help.

Two organisms are of the same species if they can interbreed and produce a
breedable result. Compatible pollen, basically.

A cultivar is a breed of plant. A breed is a finer distinction than a
species, and it implies an intentional effort on the part of the grower
to elicit certain traits.

-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.

species in animals means those individuals that can breed and produce fertile
offspring, but plants means can produce viable seed when pollinated by another of
same species.
cultivar is an unusual mutation AKA sport. For example, hosta are all one species,
but you will see hosta that are blue, hosta that are splashed with white or yellow.
these are cultivars and reproduced usually by division. in orchids this is even more
important cause the cultivar is registered and cloned to make thousands of identical
plants. Ingrid




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Thank you for the replies. I am searching the US patent office plant
database for new species but most are "cultivars" which are produced by
grafting. In short I am looking for a case where grafting procedures
produce new species without viral interaction. I take it, then, that if a
cultivar can be cross bred with anything, and then produce Mendalian
breeding charateristics, we have a brand-new species?


wrote in message
...
species in animals means those individuals that can breed and produce
fertile
offspring, but plants means can produce viable seed when pollinated by
another of
same species.
cultivar is an unusual mutation AKA sport. For example, hosta are all one
species,
but you will see hosta that are blue, hosta that are splashed with white
or yellow.
these are cultivars and reproduced usually by division. in orchids this
is even more
important cause the cultivar is registered and cloned to make thousands of
identical
plants. Ingrid




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

A cultivar can be described as a particular variant of a species that is
artificially created/encouraged/propagated by man-- further, a cultivar
variety would vanish in the wild.

Dave

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
...
Please help.

"Species" is the Latin name that follows the genus name. It is sometimes
followed by a subspecies name or a variant name or both. For example:

Rhododendron calostrotum ssp calostrotum var gigha
is a shrub noticeably different from the even tinier
Rhododendron calostrotum ssp keleticum

A variant or a subspecies is a naturally-occurring plant, not a cultivar,
though clones & cultivated strains are sometimes given names as though
they were cultivars even if they're not. The little rhody above named is
sometimes called "Gigha" capitalized & in quotes, as though this were a
cultivar name, though it is in reality a variant name & not a cultivar --
a variant name is neither capitalized nor in quotes, but by common usage
it has become its common name in commerce.

If one followed protocol exactly, names like Rhododendron "Gigha" or
Rhododendron "Milestone" would not have these names in quotes, because the
quotes indicate a REGISTERED cultivar. "Gigha" being a natural variant, &
"Milestone" beng an UNregistered cultivar ought to be given as Gigha or
Milestone, or else following the Genus name placed between parentheses, as
Rhododendron (Gigha) or Rhododendron (Milestone).

But the niceties of these specifics are rarely followed by us mere
gardeners, & really virtually never followed even by retail nurseries. The
Hoop petticoat narcissus sold as "Golden Bells" is nearly always placed in
quote though this is incorrect; & many are the claims in catalogs that it
is an improved cultivar of the botanical daffodil (one catalog claimed it
was the culmination of 20 years of hybridization -- it is not). In reality
the registrar refused to register it, because it was not distinct from the
regular botanical species. So "Golden Bells" is either an illusion trumped
up by a Dutch grower in order to sell more bulbs, or at best a selected
strain (possibly more floriferous than the species as a whole), & the name
of which should be given as Golden Bells or as Narcissus bulbicodium
(Golden Bells), but not in quotes.

A common name like Coneflower or Dandylion is also never rightly given in
quotes. The majority of true botanical tulips seem to have no common names
beyond Wild Tulip or Botanical Tulip, but when there are exceptions, such
as for Tulipa kolpakowskiana sometimes called Soltulipen or Sun tulip; or
Tulipa clusiana often called Lady tulips or Candlestick tulips, these
names would never be in quotes. (I can dream up exceptions, like: My
grandmother always called Lady Tulips "Candlestick Tulips." )

Further, Latin names (genus, species, subspecies, variant or forma) are
given in Italics, but common names, cultivar names, or named select
strains that are not cultivars, are not given in italics. When
abbreviations like var. or ssp. are inserted (& they are optional) these
should not be in italics, only the Latin part is italics. But again, the
specific niceties are ignored by most of us yobs, though important for
anyone seeking to be taxonomically precise.

But even people who probably know better don't follow these rules exactly
because it can make for a text-presentation that looks like it lacks
uniformity, when read by hobbyists rather than taxonomists.Some gardening
magazines have their in-house styles that ignore some of the lesser rules
for the sake of their own type-design uniformity. When not trying to be a
scientist about it, it's okay to ignore the minute details of the
protocol. For us amateurs, Latin names are in italics, named varieties
whether or not cultivars are in quotes capitalized but not in italics, &
common names are neither in quotes nor italics, capitalization optional
since taxonomic & registration rules don't address official regulations
for common names.

At my website I put in italics any word or phrase or name that is a "hot"
link to another page, & this means many exceptions to taxonomic rules when
a Latin name followed by cultivar name is a link-term hence entirely in
italics (& in a different typeface color to make it totally clear it is a
link). About once every two months someone sends me an e-mail because it
annoys them that cultivar names sometimes appear in italics. But it annoys
even more people that I use ambersands instead of the word "and." All
grundiesque complaints are to be ignored.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article , "Peter Jason"
wrote:

Thank you for the replies. I am searching the US patent office plant
database for new species but most are "cultivars" which are produced by
grafting. In short I am looking for a case where grafting procedures
produce new species without viral interaction. I take it, then, that if a
cultivar can be cross bred with anything, and then produce Mendalian
breeding charateristics, we have a brand-new species?

Hybrid cultivars are not new species. Even intra-species hybrids (select
strain or subspecies bred together) can end up looking vastly different
from the natural wild parents. If a sport occurs in your garden of
something common, or two plants from different continents hybridize in
yoru garden seeding strange intermediate types (as happens with
crane's-bills quite often), these novel mutations can be preserved &
developed as new strains, & might eventually be registerable as official
cultivars, but they won't be new species.

Many rhodies, tulips, & other long-gardened plants have been crossbred &
re-crossbred so many times that it is not possible to assign them any
Latin botanical name at all, but by no means makes them new kinds of
botanicals. A great many would not even survive outside of gardening
situations as they cannot produce seeds; they persist only from cloning,
division, or from stem & leaf cuttings, & can be produced by the thousands
with human assistance, but would be lucky to persist even as individual
clumps if planted in the woods & forgotten.

If however a hybrid were completely fertile, escaped to the wild, &
naturalized for decades or centuries, it could conceivably become
recognized as a new species. Tulipa marjoletti is believed to have once
been a gardened tulip of unknown ancestry, a variety that died out of
cultivation, but naturalized in the Savoy alps, was rediscovered, given a
species name, & subsequently again gardened as a "botanical" or species
tulip. Some taxonomists call these sorts of species tulips "Neo-Tulipae"
because they have not existed a particularly long time, yet they are
nevertheless regarded as their own species now, & this could happen with
other cultivated plants in the future.

Taxonomic arguments happen all the time, about intermediary types of
plants which are naturally occurring crosses between closely related
species with overlapping ranges, & whether or not these should these
should be given species status. Very widespread species often have
regional populations totally different looking from regional populations
elsewhere, but being a different size or color or curious leaf-form is not
sufficient to qualify it even as a variant. By contrast, two plants that
look identical, but have different numbers of stigma or some
distinguishing factor visible only with a microscope, would be completely
different species. Now that DNA tests have been added to the taxonomic
questions, many plants formerly thought to be of differing species are now
lumped together as all the same species, as with the common hepatica which
used to have several species now relagated to at most subspecies. Several
types of ferns once thought to be regional variants are now known to be
natural hybrids, but not given distinct names unless as selected varieties
in cultivation, then they score commercial names that might or might not
end up as registered cultivar names.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

No, that is not so. Species are taxonomically labeled based on their sameness
in flower parts, not the foliage or even the bract. The actual sexual organs of
the flower part. You can have, say, a Brugmansia spp. From there, you can
breed the Brugmansia (in the solanacea family) to be yellow, or single flowered,
etc...those are cultivars because the hand of man insinuated this development.

I think what you are trying to distinguish is the difference between a variety
and cultivar, not cultivar and species. There are varieties and cultivar in any
given species. All dogs are not husky's. But they are all dogs. You cannot
make a dog from something else.

Similarly, you can't manufacture a plant species, unless you discover one which
has not yet been discovered.

Cultivar is the product of an introduction, by man/woman, to illicit a
particular feature of another variety within the species. Mate a husky with a
wolf, you get a hybrid, but still a canine.

Variety is something which, taxonomically did not depend on the hand of
man/woman to illicit features by design. It merely already exists. It can be
hybridized with another variety to form a cultivar, but it can never be bred to
be another species.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:57:26 +1100, "Peter Jason" opined:

Thank you for the replies. I am searching the US patent office plant
database for new species but most are "cultivars" which are produced by
grafting. In short I am looking for a case where grafting procedures
produce new species without viral interaction. I take it, then, that if a
cultivar can be cross bred with anything, and then produce Mendalian
breeding charateristics, we have a brand-new species?


wrote in message
...
species in animals means those individuals that can breed and produce
fertile
offspring, but plants means can produce viable seed when pollinated by
another of
same species.
cultivar is an unusual mutation AKA sport. For example, hosta are all one
species,
but you will see hosta that are blue, hosta that are splashed with white
or yellow.
these are cultivars and reproduced usually by division. in orchids this
is even more
important cause the cultivar is registered and cloned to make thousands of
identical
plants. Ingrid




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

From the type of replies you have gotten, it is clear that most have a
rather distorted or incorrect view of what a cultivar actually represents.

A cultivar is a plant selected for its horticultural or agricultural merit
and is a plant that is given a fancy name instead of a botanical ranking. It
differs from a botanical species (or any other botanical ranking) by not
being at all representative of a wild population of plants and is often
atypical in some way of the the usual range of variation found in a
particular plant. It can be derived from a mutation grown from seed, a
hybrid or even selected from plants growing in the wild. They do not need to
be man made crosses.

Many cultivars are propagated vegetatively from division or grafting because
most do not breed true from seed. The mode of propagation does not determine
what is a cultivar, however.

Cultivars are not produced from grafting. You are confusing them with
chimeras. Many chimeras are grown as cultivars, however.

For a more info on cultivars and their naming, see the following:

http://www.ishs.org/sci/icraname.htm


Peter Jason wrote in message
...
Please help.

Peter,

Grafting is a method of propagation. Nothing new is produced by grafting.
In fact, the reason grafting is useful as a method of propagation is that all
plant parts involved in the graft retain their original characteristics.

-beeky

Peter Jason wrote:

Thank you for the replies. I am searching the US patent office plant
database for new species but most are "cultivars" which are produced by
grafting. In short I am looking for a case where grafting procedures
produce new species without viral interaction. I take it, then, that if a
cultivar can be cross bred with anything, and then produce Mendalian
breeding charateristics, we have a brand-new species?

wrote in message
...
species in animals means those individuals that can breed and produce
fertile
offspring, but plants means can produce viable seed when pollinated by
another of
same species.
cultivar is an unusual mutation AKA sport. For example, hosta are all one
species,
but you will see hosta that are blue, hosta that are splashed with white
or yellow.
these are cultivars and reproduced usually by division. in orchids this
is even more
important cause the cultivar is registered and cloned to make thousands of
identical
plants. Ingrid




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Peter,
The above answers are all correct, in their own way, but many are so
academic that if you are any the wiser then you did not really
need to ask the question!!
More simply [I hope]~~ Take an apple such as Golden Delicious which is,
as are all apples, of the species 'sylvestris' ie, Malus sylvestris. The
Golden Delicious is thus a cultivar/ variety of apples and can only be
propagated by grafting or budding to retain the genetical makeup. Sow the
seeds from the apple and all the seedlings will differ but will still be M.
sylvestris~~but not Golden Delicious. With luck [similar to winning the
lottery] one of these might be worth propagating [asexually] and would then
be a new cultivar which you could name!!
I hope this helped. As a matter of interest [or not] the above apple,
grown locally, is well named other than it is neither golden nor delicious!!
I have however seen it growing in other climates where it well lived up to
its name.
Two organisms are of the same species if they can sexually produce
offspring which are themselves capable of similar reproduction. Every
sexually produced offspring will differ to some extent [as do people] but
will be of the same species. To confuse the issue~ 'identical twins' are
produced asexually!!
Best Wishes.
"Peter Jason" wrote in message
...
Please help.

Mant thanks for all the replies. Food for thought!

"Peter Jason" wrote in message
...
Thank you for the replies. I am searching the US patent office plant
database for new species but most are "cultivars" which are produced by
grafting. In short I am looking for a case where grafting procedures
produce new species without viral interaction. I take it, then, that if a
cultivar can be cross bred with anything, and then produce Mendalian
breeding charateristics, we have a brand-new species?


wrote in message
...
species in animals means those individuals that can breed and produce
fertile
offspring, but plants means can produce viable seed when pollinated by
another of
same species.
cultivar is an unusual mutation AKA sport. For example, hosta are all
one
species,
but you will see hosta that are blue, hosta that are splashed with white
or yellow.
these are cultivars and reproduced usually by division. in orchids this
is even more
important cause the cultivar is registered and cloned to make thousands
of
identical
plants. Ingrid




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Not necessarily true, beeky.

"Graft hybrids" are chimeras with combinations of tissue from scion and
stock originated from grafts.

Do a google search and you will find several examples of "graft hybrids".

"Graft hybrids" are named as cultivars.


wrote in message
...
Peter,

Grafting is a method of propagation. Nothing new is produced by
grafting.
In fact, the reason grafting is useful as a method of propagation is that
all
plant parts involved in the graft retain their original characteristics.

-beeky

Peter Jason wrote:

Thank you for the replies. I am searching the US patent office plant
database for new species but most are "cultivars" which are produced by
grafting. In short I am looking for a case where grafting procedures
produce new species without viral interaction. I take it, then, that if
a
cultivar can be cross bred with anything, and then produce Mendalian
breeding charateristics, we have a brand-new species?

wrote in message
...
species in animals means those individuals that can breed and produce
fertile
offspring, but plants means can produce viable seed when pollinated by
another of
same species.
cultivar is an unusual mutation AKA sport. For example, hosta are all
one
species,
but you will see hosta that are blue, hosta that are splashed with
white
or yellow.
these are cultivars and reproduced usually by division. in orchids
this
is even more
important cause the cultivar is registered and cloned to make
thousands of
identical
plants. Ingrid




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Liberty Hyde Baily says:
"CULTIVAR: a variety or race that has originated and persisten under
cultivation, not necessarily refereable to a botanical species, and
which is of botanical or taxonomic importance."

the word is made up. CULTI-(vate) VAR (iety)

hermine

Dirr on the subject:

"Definition: An assemblage of cultivated plants which is clearly
distinguished by any characters (morphological, physiological, cytological,
chemical, or others) and which when reproduced (sexually or asexually)
retains its distinguishing characteristic(s)... Cultivar includes seed
produced plants that are homogeneous for one or more characteristics. This
applies to woody and herbaceous plants."

cultivar: a cultivated variety.
cultivated: maintained by man.

"hermine stover" wrote in message
...
Liberty Hyde Baily says:
"CULTIVAR: a variety or race that has originated and persisten under
cultivation, not necessarily refereable to a botanical species, and
which is of botanical or taxonomic importance."

the word is made up. CULTI-(vate) VAR (iety)

hermine