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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Robert Sturgeon wrote: On 27 Dec 2003 15:06:03 GMT, (Frank White) wrote: snipped the un important stuff We're talking about a complete and total breakdown scenario, here, something that shuts down all commercial and government operations and lasts for years. And while I'm sure that, eventually, we'd get the oil pumping, the refineries producing, and the transport network going again in such a case, it could take a LONG TIME. You can call me a raving optimist if you like, but my honest best guess is that it will always take less time to restart oil refineries and an economy to support them than to refurbish steam engines, learn to use them and put them to efficient use. If you want to sit around and not do anything until gas starts being delivered to your local filling station again, no matter how hungry you get, fine with me. Or if you have a oil well in your back yard and the knowledge and ability to crack the crude down, or you can produce bio-diesel, that's fine too. As for me, if it's a matter of starving, farming by hand and horse, or firing up a steamer, I know which *I* am going to do. YMMV Our mileage will be the same. We're guessing which scenario is the more likely and which planning makes the most sense. You are certainly welcome to fiddle with your steam engines or whatever you're doing. In my honest opinion, people who do that are pursuing a hobby, like archery or going to renaissance fairs, SCA gatherings, whatever. The survival aspects are so minimal as to be insignificant. But survival is a good excuse for the expenditures. I have start looking around for substitutes for Diesel fuel and lubricants for machinery. Well low and behold I found a sub that grows well in the high deserts of Oregon and doesn't need that much water The RAPESEED produces an oil that is a direct substitute for diesel fuel. From what I understand it can be used directly but it is really dirty. If you put the oil through a process of fractional distillation (I guess the old booze still will have more than one use) it cleans up very nicely. According to the Oregon State University agricultural extension service we should expect to get 1200 lbs of RAPEseed per acre in an average year. When the seed is expressed for oil the oil recovery is about 10% by weight. So 1200 lbs of Rapeseed will yield 120 lbs (20 gallons) of low quality diesel fuel. I suspect that through fractional distillation we would probably get 18 gallons of fuel per acre and 1 to 1.5 gallons of lubrication oil. The distilled Rapeseed oil would also provide oil for lamps for lighting. So if we plant 100 acres of Rape seed we could expect to get 1800 gallons of high quality diesel fuel. The Independent -- Robert Sturgeon, proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy and the evil gun culture. |
#2
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Jim Dauven wrote:
I have start looking around for substitutes for Diesel fuel and lubricants for machinery. Well low and behold I found a sub that grows well in the high deserts of Oregon and doesn't need that much water The RAPESEED produces an oil that is a direct substitute for diesel fuel. From what I understand it can be used directly but it is really dirty. If you put the oil through a process of fractional distillation (I guess the old booze still will have more than one use) it cleans up very nicely. According to the Oregon State University agricultural extension service we should expect to get 1200 lbs of RAPEseed per acre in an average year. When the seed is expressed for oil the oil recovery is about 10% by weight. So 1200 lbs of Rapeseed will yield 120 lbs (20 gallons) of low quality diesel fuel. I suspect that through fractional distillation we would probably get 18 gallons of fuel per acre and 1 to 1.5 gallons of lubrication oil. The distilled Rapeseed oil would also provide oil for lamps for lighting. So if we plant 100 acres of Rape seed we could expect to get 1800 gallons of high quality diesel fuel. The Independent Just a couple of thoughts, Jim. Rape (Canola) oil is a non-drying oil and was used (highly refined) as a high-speed lubricant at one time. You need to add pitch or resin to it to make a decent lamp fuel. [ That's what the Ukrainians do, anyway. ] Makes good soap too. Wood gas is a *much* better idea for fuel and light. A fraction of the work. -dir -- The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a comfortable living from a small piece of land. Abraham Lincoln |
#3
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
"David I. Raines" wrote: Snipped Just a couple of thoughts, Jim. Rape (Canola) oil is a non-drying oil and was used (highly refined) as a high-speed lubricant at one time. You need to add pitch or resin to it to make a decent lamp fuel. [ That's what the Ukrainians do, anyway. ] Makes good soap too. Wood gas is a *much* better idea for fuel and light. A fraction of the work. Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C. produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel. The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil, soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly straight forward process that produces a generally high quality biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel. With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions. The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly. I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario. I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME. It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350 degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel. The Independent -- The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a comfortable living from a small piece of land. Abraham Lincoln |
#4
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Jim Dauven wrote:
[...] Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C. produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel. The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil, soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly straight forward process that produces a generally high quality biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel. With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions. The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly. I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario. I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME. It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350 degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel. The Independent Interesting. I know someone who runs their car on "bio-diesel" so it is certainly feasible. It's just that the work involved in making the fuel is considerable. Seems to me that you would have trouble making enough fuel to just till the land to make the fuel to till the land....and so on. Remember, agriculture and industry are heavily subsidized in present-day America. You won't have those subsidies to make things seem easier than they are. What if you are driven off your land, which you have admitted in earlier posts is possible and have very prudently planned for. Planning on escaping on your tractor? [ meant half in jest and half seriously ] It's gonna be a lot like Beirut here, after the system fails. We've decided to plan on being able to split on a moment's notice with nothing but our back packs. With these stashed well away from the Retreat. There's only one thing that we need that can't be made from native raw materials: Seeds. We'll have several caches of these "out there". Real good thing that plants produce them in massive surplus. Have you looked into no-till farming? It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed ourselves. -dir -- The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a comfortable living from a small piece of land. Abraham Lincoln |
#5
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:00:00 -0800, Jim Dauven
***snip*** I have start looking around for substitutes for Diesel fuel and lubricants for machinery. Well low and behold I found a sub that grows well in the high deserts of Oregon and doesn't need that much water The RAPESEED produces an oil that is a direct substitute for diesel fuel. From what I understand it can be used directly but it is really dirty. If you put the oil through a process of fractional distillation (I guess the old booze still will have more than one use) it cleans up very nicely. According to the Oregon State University agricultural extension service we should expect to get 1200 lbs of RAPEseed per acre in an average year. When the seed is expressed for oil the oil recovery is about 10% by weight. So 1200 lbs of Rapeseed will yield 120 lbs (20 gallons) of low quality diesel fuel. I suspect that through fractional distillation we would probably get 18 gallons of fuel per acre and 1 to 1.5 gallons of lubrication oil. The distilled Rapeseed oil would also provide oil for lamps for lighting. So if we plant 100 acres of Rape seed we could expect to get 1800 gallons of high quality diesel fuel. The Independent Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce Rapeseed? Strider -- Robert Sturgeon, proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy and the evil gun culture. |
#6
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
"David I. Raines" wrote: Jim Dauven wrote: [...] Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C. produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel. The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil, soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly straight forward process that produces a generally high quality biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel. With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions. The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly. I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario. I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME. It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350 degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel. The Independent Interesting. I know someone who runs their car on "bio-diesel" so it is certainly feasible. It's just that the work involved in making the fuel is considerable. Seems to me that you would have trouble making enough fuel to just till the land to make the fuel to till the land....and so on. Remember, agriculture and industry are heavily subsidized in present-day America. You won't have those subsidies to make things seem easier than they are. What if you are driven off your land, which you have admitted in earlier posts is possible and have very prudently planned for. Planning on escaping on your tractor? [ meant half in jest and half seriously ] It's gonna be a lot like Beirut here, after the system fails. We've decided to plan on being able to split on a moment's notice with nothing but our back packs. With these stashed well away from the Retreat. There's only one thing that we need that can't be made from native raw materials: Seeds. We'll have several caches of these "out there". Real good thing that plants produce them in massive surplus. Have you looked into no-till farming? It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed ourselves. -dir I have planned on using no-till farming with horse drawn equipment. First I would run the disk harrow behind a two horse team. That's two acres an hour for 5 hours. Change horses (you cannot/should not run a horse more than 5 hours) because the need time for foraging. Then run disk harrow for another five hours. That way you can disk up 20 acres a day. The next day run the spring tooth harrow for the same about of time. (It actually may go faster as the spring tooth harrow doesn't have the resistance to pulling that the disk harrow does). Last run the grain drill for the planting of wheat, oats, barley, rapeseed etc. These plants are winter planting so you plant them in late september and let them germinate in the fall rain so they will get good start for the spring. That way the plant matures while the moisture from the spring rains is still in the ground. If you are raising cattle and you keep your cattle in a corral in the winter you can use a manure spreader to spread manure on the grain crops in the spring just as ground if thawing This will provide additional nitrogen for the growing grain plants. (The object of this is to get the grain as healthy as possible for increased yield) Also the rape oil is important here because after fertilization of the grain heads if you spray the grain with rapeseed oil that will kill many of the pests like grass hoppers as rapeseed oil is toxic and does really dry out. I don't have a horse drawn spray rig yet but it is one of the things that will have to be constructed. Crops that you will irrigate, Corn, potatoes, beans, peas, onions, alfalfa, etc you plant in the spring. One trick you can do is seed alfalfa over the grain crop that you planted the fall before. The grain will grow faster than the alfalfa but the alfalfa will still grow and the plant root nodules will fix nitrogen into the soil for the grain. You do the same no till harrow work but then you use a cultivator to make up the rows. After planting you can then lay the soaker tubes for a water supply. Again after these crops have fertilized then a mist of rapeseed oil will help in pest control. I have herd that a mist of rapeseed oil will also control pests on fruit and berries. So you can see why I am very interested in the rapeseed plant in a TEOTWAWKI scenario. The Independent The Independent A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an additional up the rows for the planting for crops -- The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a comfortable living from a small piece of land. Abraham Lincoln |
#7
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Strider wrote: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:00:00 -0800, Jim Dauven ***snip*** You obviously weren't paying attention as I have posted that I have collected all kinds of horse drawn farming equipment for farming in TEOTWAWKI times. The Independent Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce Rapeseed? Strider -- Robert Sturgeon, proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy and the evil gun culture. |
#8
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Xref: kermit rec.gardens.edible:66125 rec.gardens:260412 misc.survivalism:505240 misc.rural:117211 rec.backcountry:173572
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:27:32 -0800, Jim Dauven wrote: A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an additional up the rows for the planting for crops As long as he keeps them out of the rapeseed field....if he dont...he has dead or sick horses Gunner "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
#9
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:30:07 -0800, Jim Dauven
wrote: Strider wrote: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:00:00 -0800, Jim Dauven ***snip*** You obviously weren't paying attention as I have posted that I have collected all kinds of horse drawn farming equipment for farming in TEOTWAWKI times. The Independent Sorry. It didn't connect. Can the waste plant matter in your process be reused as animal feed or fertilizer or does the process contaminate it somehow? Strider Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce Rapeseed? Strider -- Robert Sturgeon, proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy and the evil gun culture. |
#10
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Curious - have you actually tried to plant and harvest hundreds of acres
using only horses for power, or is this some kind of academic exercise? The reason I ask is that people who actually have done so, and books I have read on pre-tractor farming indicate this is a wildly optimistic scenario. "Jim Dauven" wrote in message ... "David I. Raines" wrote: Jim Dauven wrote: [...] Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C. produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel. The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil, soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly straight forward process that produces a generally high quality biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel. With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions. The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly. I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario. I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME. It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350 degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel. The Independent Interesting. I know someone who runs their car on "bio-diesel" so it is certainly feasible. It's just that the work involved in making the fuel is considerable. Seems to me that you would have trouble making enough fuel to just till the land to make the fuel to till the land....and so on. Remember, agriculture and industry are heavily subsidized in present-day America. You won't have those subsidies to make things seem easier than they are. What if you are driven off your land, which you have admitted in earlier posts is possible and have very prudently planned for. Planning on escaping on your tractor? [ meant half in jest and half seriously ] It's gonna be a lot like Beirut here, after the system fails. We've decided to plan on being able to split on a moment's notice with nothing but our back packs. With these stashed well away from the Retreat. There's only one thing that we need that can't be made from native raw materials: Seeds. We'll have several caches of these "out there". Real good thing that plants produce them in massive surplus. Have you looked into no-till farming? It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed ourselves. -dir I have planned on using no-till farming with horse drawn equipment. First I would run the disk harrow behind a two horse team. That's two acres an hour for 5 hours. Change horses (you cannot/should not run a horse more than 5 hours) because the need time for foraging. Then run disk harrow for another five hours. That way you can disk up 20 acres a day. The next day run the spring tooth harrow for the same about of time. (It actually may go faster as the spring tooth harrow doesn't have the resistance to pulling that the disk harrow does). Last run the grain drill for the planting of wheat, oats, barley, rapeseed etc. These plants are winter planting so you plant them in late september and let them germinate in the fall rain so they will get good start for the spring. That way the plant matures while the moisture from the spring rains is still in the ground. If you are raising cattle and you keep your cattle in a corral in the winter you can use a manure spreader to spread manure on the grain crops in the spring just as ground if thawing This will provide additional nitrogen for the growing grain plants. (The object of this is to get the grain as healthy as possible for increased yield) Also the rape oil is important here because after fertilization of the grain heads if you spray the grain with rapeseed oil that will kill many of the pests like grass hoppers as rapeseed oil is toxic and does really dry out. I don't have a horse drawn spray rig yet but it is one of the things that will have to be constructed. Crops that you will irrigate, Corn, potatoes, beans, peas, onions, alfalfa, etc you plant in the spring. One trick you can do is seed alfalfa over the grain crop that you planted the fall before. The grain will grow faster than the alfalfa but the alfalfa will still grow and the plant root nodules will fix nitrogen into the soil for the grain. You do the same no till harrow work but then you use a cultivator to make up the rows. After planting you can then lay the soaker tubes for a water supply. Again after these crops have fertilized then a mist of rapeseed oil will help in pest control. I have herd that a mist of rapeseed oil will also control pests on fruit and berries. So you can see why I am very interested in the rapeseed plant in a TEOTWAWKI scenario. The Independent The Independent A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an additional up the rows for the planting for crops -- The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a comfortable living from a small piece of land. Abraham Lincoln |
#11
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Bob Peterson wrote: Curious - have you actually tried to plant and harvest hundreds of acres using only horses for power, or is this some kind of academic exercise? The reason I ask is that people who actually have done so, and books I have read on pre-tractor farming indicate this is a wildly optimistic scenario. If you skip turning the soil with a plow you are removing about 1/3 to 1/2 the work of prepairing the soil for farming. The amount of land that can be cultivated by horse drawn equipment depends on the type of crops and the strategy that is used. In growing mixed crops such as wheat (winter wheat) rape seed, some varieties of oats and barley, they are planted in the fall. Using the no-till method of framing, (where the land is not plowed but is harrowed) it is reasonable to expect to prepare and seed 100 acres in the months of September and October. These crops will then be harvested in July. Then using the no-till method in the spring to plant the late maturing crops like potatoes, corn, beans, peas, turnips, onions, etc., these crops will be harvested in august or early september so it is reasonable to expect to put an additional 100 acres into production. There fore 180 to 200 acres is the UPPER LIMIT of cultivation with horses. The Independent |
#12
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Strider wrote: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:30:07 -0800, Jim Dauven wrote: Strider wrote: Sorry. It didn't connect. Can the waste plant matter in your process be reused as animal feed or fertilizer or does the process contaminate it somehow? Strider All waste material is valuable, you just have to find a use for it. The planting of alfalfa in wheat serves two purposes. One is fertilization the other is animal feed harvested in late fall. The alfalfa and wheat stubble provide cover and feed for pheasant and quail which can be harvested in the fall with a shot gun. Wheat stalks and chaff from the thrashing process is almost pure cellulose and is perfect for making nitrocellulose which can be a plastic or smokeless gun powder. The planting of flax for flax seed and flaxseed oil (linseed oil) is an ideal crop because the flax seed is a food source, linseed oil can be used in preservatives, and the flax stalk is the source of linen fiber for making long wearing clothes. The vines from vegetables such as beans, peas and corn stalks can be used for animal feed. Plants such as potatoes and tomatoes are members of the nightshade family and can build up dangerous alkaloids that are toxic. These plants should be used for composting with animal dung. With the no-till strategy of farming it is advisable to run a disk harrow over the harvested land as soon as the food crop is removed. ( I disagree with this where alfalfa and grain are planted together) but for potatoes and tomatoes this chops the plants up and turns them under into the soil to decompose. The been and pea plants can be left laying in the field as cattle and goats will readily eat them. Of course goats and cattle also leave piles of fertilizer in the same fields. What I am trying to do is take the old technologies of horse drawn farming (which may be the only way to farm if there is a collapse of the energy production and distributions systems) coupled with the advances made in farm technology and organic farming of today. Remember if the energy production and distribution system fails, there will be no herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers, and fuel for equipment. That means that we will have to use natural fertilizers such as animal dung and nitrogen fixing plants to a maximum extent. The pesticides will have to be replaced by natural pesticides such as the toxic Rapeseed oil, (You can buy that stuff at most nurseries today as a house hold pesticide, and I am told it makes a good insect repellent also). Planting Rapeseed around the edges of a food crop will also discourage pests from entering the food crop. (Rapeseed border will have to be 50 to 100 feet wide however). While a lot of what I have been thinking and researching is not really that economically feasible with today's reliance on chemical, mechanized farming, if the crunch comes it will provide a source of abundant food, fiber, leather, and some fuel to start a rebuilding process. Hell even in the advent of a major war in the middle east when our oil supplies are shut down, the production of biodiesel by individuals to run their own equipment will be of a economic benefit. The excess fuel can then be sold to energy companies. (I like the idea of Texaco buying diesel from me) The Independent Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce Rapeseed? Strider -- Robert Sturgeon, proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy and the evil gun culture. |
#13
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
Jim Dauven wrote:
[...] Have you looked into no-till farming? It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed ourselves. -dir I have planned on using no-till farming with horse drawn equipment. First I would run the disk harrow behind a two horse team. That's two acres an hour for 5 hours. Change horses (you cannot/should not run a horse more than 5 hours) because the need time for foraging. Then run disk harrow for another five hours. That way you can disk up 20 acres a day. The next day run the spring tooth harrow for the same about of time. (It actually may go faster as the spring tooth harrow doesn't have the resistance to pulling that the disk harrow does). Last run the grain drill for the planting of wheat, oats, barley, rapeseed etc. These plants are winter planting so you plant them in late september and let them germinate in the fall rain so they will get good start for the spring. That way the plant matures while the moisture from the spring rains is still in the ground. If you are raising cattle and you keep your cattle in a corral in the winter you can use a manure spreader to spread manure on the grain crops in the spring just as ground if thawing This will provide additional nitrogen for the growing grain plants. (The object of this is to get the grain as healthy as possible for increased yield) Also the rape oil is important here because after fertilization of the grain heads if you spray the grain with rapeseed oil that will kill many of the pests like grass hoppers as rapeseed oil is toxic and does really dry out. I don't have a horse drawn spray rig yet but it is one of the things that will have to be constructed. Crops that you will irrigate, Corn, potatoes, beans, peas, onions, alfalfa, etc you plant in the spring. One trick you can do is seed alfalfa over the grain crop that you planted the fall before. The grain will grow faster than the alfalfa but the alfalfa will still grow and the plant root nodules will fix nitrogen into the soil for the grain. You do the same no till harrow work but then you use a cultivator to make up the rows. After planting you can then lay the soaker tubes for a water supply. Again after these crops have fertilized then a mist of rapeseed oil will help in pest control. I have herd that a mist of rapeseed oil will also control pests on fruit and berries. So you can see why I am very interested in the rapeseed plant in a TEOTWAWKI scenario. The Independent The Independent A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an additional up the rows for the planting for crops Why do you need to grow so much stuff? We can live on a quarter acre apiece and that includes veggies, grain, oilseeds, bush/cane/vine fruits, legumes, sugar plants, and fiber plants. A simple planting stick is all you need, and something sharp to cut the weeds off at the base. Seems to me that you only have to have the tractor and horses in order to grow enough crops to 'feed' both of them. As for raising large animals, that's an incredible amount of work. I would rather eat veggies and kick back. Why feed animals 10# of food to get 2# back? And ALL that water and care and shelter and fencing and herding and on and on and on. I don't think you can do the above, Jim, without a pretty good size work force of people that are not equal partners. That tend the animals and eat turnips, so to speak. An underclass. Americans couldn't eat animal products at every meal now, if their food supply wasn't subsidized by cheap labor, here and abroad. -dir -- The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a comfortable living from a small piece of land. Abraham Lincoln |
#14
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:00:00 -0800, Jim Dauven
wrote: Robert Sturgeon wrote: When the seed is expressed for oil the oil recovery is about 10% by weight. So 1200 lbs of Rapeseed will yield 120 lbs (20 gallons) of low quality diesel fuel. I suspect that through fractional distillation we would probably get 18 gallons of fuel per acre and 1 to 1.5 gallons of lubrication oil. The distilled Rapeseed oil would also provide oil for lamps for lighting. So if we plant 100 acres of Rape seed we could expect to get 1800 gallons of high quality diesel fuel. You seem to have only a partial picture of biodiesel. If produced by adding methoxide to oil (any vegetable oil, tallow or lard--even waste oil from restaurant fryers), you can get a realatively low-temp reaction that yields biodiesel and glycerine. The glycerine can be used as is in the shop as a degreaser/cleaner, or cleaned up and sold as a high-quality cleanser. Methoxide is simply methanol (ethanol is also viable, but less reliable from what I've read) and pure lye. Biodiesel is cleaner than petrol, lubricates better (thus extends engine life) and results in quieter operation of the motor. Both the byproducts can be poured harmlessly on the ground, where they will break down naturally. Check out the biodiesel discussion here to learn mo http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751 It is becoming more and more practical to buy pre-made biodiesel that can be poured directly into any diesel's fuel tank, but mostly in the midwest where soy oil is produced in large volume. There (and some other places), you can buy from a pump like any auto fuel, but most of us have to manage to arrange some sort of storage tanks and have it delivered in large quantities right now. The big drawback to biodiesel is that it gels around 32* F. and clogs filters. Solutions include a tank heater (still risk of clogging in the lines themselves), an anti-gel product that can be added to teh fuel, or mixing petro diesel with biodiesel to get a blend that can stay viscous at lower temps. Even blends as low as 5% biodiesel result in much better lubrication. Check it out--this is the next wave, IMO. We just have to push it past a congress and president who are in the pockets of the petroleum industry. Keith For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp. For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/ |
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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement? (getting fuel)
"David I. Raines" wrote: Jim Dauven wrote: [...] Have you looked into no-till farming? It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed ourselves. -dir I have planned on using no-till farming with horse drawn equipment. First I would run the disk harrow behind a two horse team. That's two acres an hour for 5 hours. Change horses (you cannot/should not run a horse more than 5 hours) because the need time for foraging. Then run disk harrow for another five hours. That way you can disk up 20 acres a day. The next day run the spring tooth harrow for the same about of time. (It actually may go faster as the spring tooth harrow doesn't have the resistance to pulling that the disk harrow does). Last run the grain drill for the planting of wheat, oats, barley, rapeseed etc. These plants are winter planting so you plant them in late september and let them germinate in the fall rain so they will get good start for the spring. That way the plant matures while the moisture from the spring rains is still in the ground. If you are raising cattle and you keep your cattle in a corral in the winter you can use a manure spreader to spread manure on the grain crops in the spring just as ground if thawing This will provide additional nitrogen for the growing grain plants. (The object of this is to get the grain as healthy as possible for increased yield) Also the rape oil is important here because after fertilization of the grain heads if you spray the grain with rapeseed oil that will kill many of the pests like grass hoppers as rapeseed oil is toxic and does really dry out. I don't have a horse drawn spray rig yet but it is one of the things that will have to be constructed. Crops that you will irrigate, Corn, potatoes, beans, peas, onions, alfalfa, etc you plant in the spring. One trick you can do is seed alfalfa over the grain crop that you planted the fall before. The grain will grow faster than the alfalfa but the alfalfa will still grow and the plant root nodules will fix nitrogen into the soil for the grain. You do the same no till harrow work but then you use a cultivator to make up the rows. After planting you can then lay the soaker tubes for a water supply. Again after these crops have fertilized then a mist of rapeseed oil will help in pest control. I have herd that a mist of rapeseed oil will also control pests on fruit and berries. So you can see why I am very interested in the rapeseed plant in a TEOTWAWKI scenario. The Independent The Independent A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an additional up the rows for the planting for crops Why do you need to grow so much stuff? We can live on a quarter acre apiece and that includes veggies, grain, oilseeds, bush/cane/vine fruits, legumes, sugar plants, and fiber plants. A simple planting stick is all you need, and something sharp to cut the weeds off at the base. Seems to me that you only have to have the tractor and horses in order to grow enough crops to 'feed' both of them. As for raising large animals, that's an incredible amount of work. I would rather eat veggies and kick back. Why feed animals 10# of food to get 2# back? And ALL that water and care and shelter and fencing and herding and on and on and on. I don't think you can do the above, Jim, without a pretty good size work force of people that are not equal partners. That tend the animals and eat turnips, so to speak. An underclass. Americans couldn't eat animal products at every meal now, if their food supply wasn't subsidized by cheap labor, here and abroad. -dir I currently have 4 horses, 6 beef cattle, 12 Sheep, 6 pygmy goats a flock of chickens and some ducks. I own 5 acres of land with half a duck pond, and have rented an extra 8 acres on a long term lease from an old gent. That gives me 13 acres for my livestock. My wife tends the garden 200 X 200 in raised beds. (That stops a lot of back aches right there.) The live stock takes about an hour a day to take care of. Of course I plan on spending 4 or 5 weekends a year to repair fences that the livestock brake down. My bug out property in South East Oregon is basically my hunting and fishing camp. There are lots of deer, sage grouse, and chucker partridge there. The Owhyee river at the bottom of the deep canyon that borders my property is a fisherman's paradise with native lahaten cutthroat and rainbow trout. I can fly over in the morning and fly out in the evening. Its a two hour flight on most days. If event of TEOTWAWKI, major War, or economic dislocation I plan on having an abundant supply of: biodiesel for my vehicle linen cloth from flax wool cloth from sheep leather goods from traded hides from slaughtered animals flour Corn meal popcorn peanuts Potatoes Tomatoes beer (home brewed from my own hops and grain) beans pea onions garlic herbs squash turnips parsnips carrots beets asparagus strawberries black berries apples peaches pears apricots milk cheese butter eggs Wine from fruit and berries brandy from the distilled wine. For most of the above plants I already have seed stored in vacuum sealed long term storage containers. I plan on ordering some rapeseed this spring. I plan on putting about 20 lbs of it away in vacuum sealed containers. You might be interested in my vacuum sealing process. I have a steel pressure sphere. I place the seeds in old fashioned glass jars with the glass lids with rubber gaskets and wire hold down clamps. I fill jars with helium by turning them up side down cracking the lid which is not sealed at this point, and using a long thin hollow tube which I insert all the way into jar. When I think the jars are filled with Helium replace the lid and clamp it down. I place the jars upside down on racks in the pressure sphere. I then with draw enough air so pressure in the sphere causes the jar to seal its self. (generally about 7 psi or so) There may be a few other odd and ends that I have neglected to list but to have abundant food is to have wealth if things go all to hell. Now I know some wise ass is going to say the government will come in and confiscate all the food stuffs. But I got news for you they won't. They know if you confiscate the food stuffs there won't be any for the next year. What the government does is set a price ceiling of which you cannot sell above. But even the price ceiling is a lot more than the cost of production. During World War II the farmers in Southern Idaho while the didn't become filthy rich, they did rather well during the war. I know some Japanese families that were interned at the camp at Hunt Idaho. During the war they hired out as day laborers. By the end of the war Mr. Izowa, Mr. Murakami and Mr. Matsuoka were all very prosperous farmers with some large holdings. The way my parents told me, during the rationing of WWII, the farm communities had abundant meat, leather, gasoline, cheese, milk, and even tires for their farm vehicles, (mainly trucks). It seems farmers were exempted from almost every thing but sugar. That was hard to get but with bee hives and honey there was a lot of sweeteners to go around. The Independent -- The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a comfortable living from a small piece of land. Abraham Lincoln |
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