Many people are not used to Democrats or Liberals or
anyone outside their primitive agenda, speaking out or giving quotations, or
citation on any information to rebuke their false claims.

John Kerry said:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several
months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably
discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes
committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a
day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off
heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the
power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed
villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun,
poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in
addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular
ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country"

Truth, false claims, nuanced position, or perhaps slander? No wonder those
Swift boat vets are ****ed off.

Signed,
Conservative Democrat with no representation in the party as currently
formatted.

In article ,
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

Many people are not used to Democrats or Liberals or
anyone outside their primitive agenda, speaking out or giving quotations, or
citation on any information to rebuke their false claims.

John Kerry said:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several
months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably
discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes
committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a
day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears,
cut off
heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned
up the
power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed
villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun,
poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South
Vietnam in
addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular
ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country"

Truth, false claims, nuanced position, or perhaps slander? No wonder those
Swift boat vets are ****ed off.

Signed,
Conservative Democrat with no representation in the party as currently
formatted.

Amazing how loonies can hate a man for bravery & truth. Even when the
truth comes from a man who was there & was wounded, the rest of the story
is just supposed to be covered up.

Kerry proved with actions that he has the capacity for personal bravery up
to the point of risking his life to save others, serving his country to
the highest degree short of death, while George W. Bush draft-dodged &
went awol even from his non-duties in the National Guard the instant
drug-testing was required of him.

Kerry had the integrity to follow-up on his bravery in action up with
honesty in service to the world, in reporting what occurred happened in
Viet Nam. Bravery & honesty -- yuck, deplorable.

How sad that anyone on earth can so deplore the combination of bravery &
honesty. I'll never fathom how anyone purporting to care about vets would
prefer for president a draft-dodging coward & pathological liar who has
sent men & women to die in battle for reasons that had no basis in
reality.

Machieveli said that the best way to destroy a good man is to find his
best & least assailable traits, & assail those. And people think Bush
doesn't know philosophy!

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

paghat wrote:

In article ,
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

Many people are not used to Democrats or Liberals or
anyone outside their primitive agenda, speaking out or giving
quotations, or citation on any information to rebuke their false claims.

John Kerry said:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that
several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150
honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to
war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at
all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears,
cut off
heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned
up the
power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed
villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South
Vietnam in
addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular
ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country"

Truth, false claims, nuanced position, or perhaps slander? No wonder
those Swift boat vets are ****ed off.

Signed,
Conservative Democrat with no representation in the party as currently
formatted.

Amazing how loonies can hate a man for bravery & truth. Even when the
truth comes from a man who was there & was wounded, the rest of the story
is just supposed to be covered up.

Kerry proved with actions that he has the capacity for personal bravery up
to the point of risking his life to save others, serving his country to
the highest degree short of death, while George W. Bush draft-dodged &
went awol even from his non-duties in the National Guard the instant
drug-testing was required of him.

Kerry had the integrity to follow-up on his bravery in action up with
honesty in service to the world, in reporting what occurred happened in
Viet Nam. Bravery & honesty -- yuck, deplorable.

How sad that anyone on earth can so deplore the combination of bravery &
honesty. I'll never fathom how anyone purporting to care about vets would
prefer for president a draft-dodging coward & pathological liar who has
sent men & women to die in battle for reasons that had no basis in
reality.

Machieveli said that the best way to destroy a good man is to find his
best & least assailable traits, & assail those. And people think Bush
doesn't know philosophy!

-paghat the ratgirl


AGREE!!!!
I spent two involuntary tours in Vietnam in the U.S. Army between 1967 and
1979 and I witnessed atrocities such as cutting off ears of the dead,
burning down villages, shooting of water buffalo and ducks and rape. Those
in Vietnam who did not witness or perform such were probably garrison
troops in a headquarters unit.

Also, I spent some time at a place called Dong Tam in the Mekong Delta. You
could climb a short distance up the comms tower and look into Cambodia. It
was common knowledge that the boats there and troops WERE going into
Cambodia.

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:48:41 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
opined:

AGREE!!!!
I spent two involuntary tours in Vietnam in the U.S. Army between 1967 and
1979 and I witnessed atrocities such as cutting off ears of the dead,
burning down villages, shooting of water buffalo and ducks and rape. Those
in Vietnam who did not witness or perform such were probably garrison
troops in a headquarters unit.

Also, I spent some time at a place called Dong Tam in the Mekong Delta. You
could climb a short distance up the comms tower and look into Cambodia. It
was common knowledge that the boats there and troops WERE going into
Cambodia.

Welcome home, soldier and thank you. I'm glad for people like you and sorry we
have undesirables who would do such murderous things. It's no wonder many
Vietnam Vets can't talk to this day about their tour of duty there.

Victoria





Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

escapee wrote:

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:48:41 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
opined:

AGREE!!!!
I spent two involuntary tours in Vietnam in the U.S. Army between 1967 and
1979 and I witnessed atrocities such as cutting off ears of the dead,
burning down villages, shooting of water buffalo and ducks and rape.
Those in Vietnam who did not witness or perform such were probably
garrison troops in a headquarters unit.

Also, I spent some time at a place called Dong Tam in the Mekong Delta.
You
could climb a short distance up the comms tower and look into Cambodia.
It was common knowledge that the boats there and troops WERE going into
Cambodia.

Welcome home, soldier and thank you. I'm glad for people like you and
sorry we
have undesirables who would do such murderous things. It's no wonder many
Vietnam Vets can't talk to this day about their tour of duty there.

Victoria


Thank you,
I see where I had a typo in my post - it should have read between - 1967 and
1970.

The following was from a post on another newgroup about the helicopter pilot
who drew dawn on soldiers at My Lai and saved a few lives by doing so.
This was on TV a couple weeks ago. The same type of individuals are the
ones questioning Kerry. The post follows:

How did you guys treat Hugh Thompson the helicopter pilot who risked his
life and stopped the killings at My
Lai?**Why*he*was*treated*as*a*traitor*by*his
fellow vets!**He*received*death*threats*and*the*officers* club*would*empty
when he walked in to have a drink.**The*U.S.*military*even*stopped*providing
him with adequate back-up on his missions after My Lai!**Are*these*the*same
Vietnam Vets who are now accusing Kerry of being a traitor?

The following was from a post on another newgroup about the helicopter pilot
who drew dawn on soldiers at My Lai and saved a few lives by doing so.
This was on TV a couple weeks ago. The same type of individuals are the
ones questioning Kerry. The post follows:

How did you guys treat Hugh Thompson the helicopter pilot who risked his
life and stopped the killings at My
Lai?**Why*he*was*treated*as*a*traitor*by*his
fellow vets!**He*received*death*threats*and*the*officers* club*would*empty
when he walked in to have a drink.**The*U.S.*military*even*stopped*providing
him with adequate back-up on his missions after My Lai!**Are*these*the*same
Vietnam Vets who are now accusing Kerry of being a traitor?

I believe that at some time later, the truth came out, he was awarded
a medal, and he now lectures on ethics in war at West Point.

vince norris

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:04:39 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

(snip)
The following was from a post on another newgroup about the helicopter pilot
who drew dawn on soldiers at My Lai and saved a few lives by doing so.
This was on TV a couple weeks ago. The same type of individuals are the
ones questioning Kerry. The post follows:

How did you guys treat Hugh Thompson the helicopter pilot who risked his
life and stopped the killings at My
Lai?**Why*he*was*treated*as*a*traitor*by*his
fellow vets!**He*received*death*threats*and*the*officers* club*would*empty
when he walked in to have a drink.**The*U.S.*military*even*stopped*providing
him with adequate back-up on his missions after My Lai!**Are*these*the*same
Vietnam Vets who are now accusing Kerry of being a traitor?

I'd say the helicopter pilot is hardly in the same league as Kerry. He's an
honest and courageous man. Kerry, on the other hand........well, his own words
speak eloquently for him.

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:04:39 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
opined:


Thank you,
I see where I had a typo in my post - it should have read between - 1967 and
1970.

I figured as much.

The following was from a post on another newgroup about the helicopter pilot
who drew dawn on soldiers at My Lai and saved a few lives by doing so.
This was on TV a couple weeks ago. The same type of individuals are the
ones questioning Kerry. The post follows:

How did you guys treat Hugh Thompson the helicopter pilot who risked his
life and stopped the killings at My
Lai?Â*Â*WhyÂ*heÂ*wasÂ*treatedÂ*asÂ*aÂ*traitorÂ*by Â*his
fellow vets!Â*Â*HeÂ*receivedÂ*deathÂ*threatsÂ*andÂ*theÂ*o fficersÂ*clubÂ*wouldÂ*empty
when he walked in to have a drink.Â*Â*TheÂ*U.S.Â*militaryÂ*evenÂ*stoppedÂ*prov iding
him with adequate back-up on his missions after My Lai!Â*Â*AreÂ*theseÂ*theÂ*same
Vietnam Vets who are now accusing Kerry of being a traitor?

I'm not sure, but I do know they are all somehow tied to the current
administration in some way. They paid for the commercial out of pocket and are
all relatively big contributors to the Bush Campaign.

It's been all over the news. They've been outed.

V





Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

In article , wrote:

How did you guys treat Hugh Thompson the helicopter pilot who risked his
life and stopped the killings at My
Lai?**Why*he*was*treated*as*a*traitor*by*his
fellow vets!**He*received*death*threats*and*the*officers* club*would*empty
when he walked in to have a drink.**The*U.S.*military*even*stopped*providing
him with adequate back-up on his missions after My Lai!**Are*these*the*same
Vietnam Vets who are now accusing Kerry of being a traitor?

THe men gathered together he
http://library.brandeis.edu/specialcollections/specialevents/ford/gallery/6_00-093-25.jpg
served with George Bush in Viet Nam.

The orchestrators behind the "vets against kerry" no-holds-barred smear
campaign are radical right-wing nutsacks who previously orchestrated a
campaign against John McCain when McCain was competing for GOP nomination
against Bush. McCain's years as a prisoner of war being cowardly compared
to Bush. The same man was behind the exact same pro-Bush win-at-any-cost
tactics attacking the patriotism of Sen. Max Cleland, who left three limbs
in Vietnam, but was still a coward & a traitor "akin to Osama bin Laden"
undeserving of office.

Foremost among the far-right nutsacks is a chap by the name of Karl Rove,
one of Bush's long-time chief political aides. Texas politicians believe
he almost single-handedly orchestrated Bush to governorship of Texas with
the long-term plan of making him president of the united states. THe
current plan is to keep him there. The money for Rowe's "Kerry's A
Traitor" event comes from Texan tycoon Bob Perry, who used to be Bush's #2
funding source, but is now #1 since Enron's x-CEO Ken Lay stopped
contributing. Bob Perry provided nearly all the funding for the actual
production of the inflamatory ad. Meanwhile, the public spokeswoman for
the anti-Kerry veterans is Texas republican & long-time Bushite Merrie
Spaeth, who formerly headed the campaign to make McCain look like a
traitor, has been a republican flack since Bush Senior was vice-president,
& whose late husband was Tex Lazar the GOP's lieutenant governor
candidate.

Without Bush's pal Rowe in command, none of it would happen. As the San
Antonia Express-News said yesterday, "Texas political observers recognize
these antics as textbook examples of things that seem to happen around
campaigns that involve Karl Rove, the long-time shadowy wunderkind of the
Texas GOP." Rove is behind all these "attack their patriotism" campaigns
in support of Bush. Rowe possesses a "mastery for distracting public
attention away from his candidate's weaknesses to focus on pointless
matters."

The New York Times found that the connections between Rowe's Texas
Republican & the Texas campaign to elect Bush are numerous and certain,
but there is an ongoing attempt to maintain a buffer between the Texas and
the National campaign so that at worst a few Texas campaigners will have
to fall on their sword & Bush himself can pretend never to have been
involved with the baseless smear campaign.

Jim Rassmann whose life John Kerry saved said that the group calling
themselves "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" have concocted "a pure
fabrication." One of the anti-Kerry vets, Larry Thurlow, was on ANOTHER
swift boat during the maneuvers. Thurlow's ship was fifty yards away, & he
now claims there was no enemy fire, so that Kerry's Bronze Star for heroic
action under fire was dishonestly obtained. Turns out, though, that
Thurlow also has a Bronze Star for actions on the same day in the same
river-battle. Thurlow's citation states, "all units came under small arms
and automatic weapons fire from the river banks." Yet Thurlow never
suggested HE should return his medal as falsely earned due to lack of
enemy fire.

John O'Neill, another of the vets speaking out against Kerry in the same
ad, has been the lead attorney for Texas Republican politics for years, &
has waged similar smear-campaigns since the Nixon years always in support
of republican candidates. He's a Texas Republican insider at the highest
ranks, whose client list has been called a "Who's Who of Texas
Republicans."

Kenneth Cordier, also appearing in the ad as a Swift Boat Veteran, was
even further into lala land than THurlow, who at least really WAS on
ANOTHER swift boat. Kenneth Cordier wasn't -- just an outright theatrical
piece for him. Not only was NOT a Swift Boat Veteran, but he IS an advisor
for the Veterans for Bush/Cheney Campaign 2004, & was vice-chair for
Campaign 2000. Just another insider doing his bit, but hooboy the depth of
lies they can concoct. Saturday Cordier quit resigned his Bush national
re-election position -- the first to fall on his sword for the cause,
though it's not much of a sword-fall, he WILL turn up again still in good
stead with Bush.

WIth the exception of right-wing Fox Cable News, & sundry far-right news
sources on the web, & right-wing radio shouters, all legitimate news
investigators have found the anti-Kerry Veterans campaign to be riddled
with fraud, lies, & baseless claims. But it doesn't matter. Karl Rove's
pro-Bush tactic always works -- an allegation made often enough is never
completely disbelieved, cuz when you want a lie to be believed, it has to
be a really big lie.

When Thurlow was outed as a liar by all credible news sources, Chris
Matthews' Hardball looked around for a far-right voice to speak in
Thurlow's defense. He found Michelle Malkin, whose greatest claim to fame
is her book IN DEFENSE OF INTERNMENT which states that putting Japanese
Americans in prisoner of war camps was a good idea in WWII, & it should be
done again today with Arabs. She stuck up for Thurlow's version of the
story which explains Kerry's war-wound as self-inflicted specifically
because it would look good if he ever decided to run for president decades
later. This is also the only reason he VOLUNTEERED for Swift Boat duty at
a time was experiencing a 75% casualty rate.

Thirteen veterans in the infamous flame-ad imply they served with Kerry,
but they apparently mean they were somewhere on the same river the same
day, because not one of them was a crewmate of Kerry's as they have so
clearly stated or implied. Those who ACTUALLY served WITH Kerry ON the
same boat as Kerry tell a cohesive story of his actions under fire saving
the lives of his fellow soldiers, & taking a bullet in the arm. Yet
Bushites found thirteen talking head vets willing to PRETEND to have stood
beside Kerry say none of it happened. When they call themselves "Swift
Boat Vets" they clearly mean to imply they were on Kerry's boat per se &
all testimony they give is first-hand observation, but not one of them was
on Kerry's boat.

Not so amusingly, the "testimony" of the Thirteen was very carefully
written (rather than just cleverly edited stories vets personally told).
Once you know that not one of them actually served with Kerry as a
crewmate, the written dialog turns out not actually to say they did --
"serving with Kerry," when they are cornered for the lies, turns out not
to mean they served beside him as crewmates per se, but they were in the
same war, so they served with Kerry. Except for Cordier of course, who was
never on Swift Boat duty at all -- how "deniability" legal expert O'Neill
& orchestrator Rowe let him into the stinking brew is a mystery, as it
rather spoils the plan to concoct a script that implies all sorts of
things it can later pretend they didn't specifically say.

Bush has repeatedly dodged all chances to condemn the ad, just as in 2000
he refused to denounce the Rove's earlier "veterans" group which was
attacking McCain's service record. (You can watch the video of Bush in
2000 when McCain was being identically attacked, he
http://www.johnkerry.com/video/console.php?video=082104_old_tricks#082104_old_tri cks
Just start the "Old Tricks" video -- & remember this week's news of Bush
having the exact same response to the exact same baseless campaign.

The Bush campaign needs only to repeat their lies often enough to cast
doubt. There ARE SO weapons of destruction; Kerry's war service was
COWARDLY. If enough people can be caused to doubt reality, then voters
won't be weighing the actual facts & will make their decision in a
befuddled cloud of not knowing what the hell is true. Knowing the truth
would mean it really is a choice between a lying Bush or an honest Kerry,
a draft-dodging Bush or a war-hero Kerry. Those are the factual
distinctions that have to be muddled by the Bush campaigners.

Some vets do hate Kerry for becoming an anti-war activist after his
service, & for later still obtaining congressional testimony from other
vets who saw atrocities committed by American soldiers. These truths will
forever be regarded as traitorous by vets who will never value quite so
much truth.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

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"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
paghat wrote:

AGREE!!!!
I spent two involuntary tours in Vietnam in the U.S. Army between 1967 and
1979

What was your unit and where where you stationed at both times?


and I witnessed atrocities such as cutting off ears of the dead,
burning down villages, shooting of water buffalo and ducks and rape.
Those
in Vietnam who did not witness or perform such were probably garrison
troops in a headquarters unit.

Also, I spent some time at a place called Dong Tam in the Mekong Delta.
You
could climb a short distance up the comms tower and look into Cambodia.
It
was common knowledge that the boats there and troops WERE going into
Cambodia.

I don't believe you.

I was a Song Be, RVN



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RealOne wrote:

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"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
paghat wrote:

AGREE!!!!
I spent two involuntary tours in Vietnam in the U.S. Army between 1967
and 1979

What was your unit and where where you stationed at both times?

First Signal Brigade both tours. First tour stationed at Bear Cat and Dong
Tam supplying radio relay support for 9th Infantry division

Second tour - based in Chu Lai with supplying radio relay support for the
Americal Division (Lt. Calley's old Division) with numerous trips out to
LZs and fire bases.

And what unit were you in????


and I witnessed atrocities such as cutting off ears of the dead,
burning down villages, shooting of water buffalo and ducks and rape.
Those
in Vietnam who did not witness or perform such were probably garrison
troops in a headquarters unit.

Also, I spent some time at a place called Dong Tam in the Mekong Delta.
You
could climb a short distance up the comms tower and look into Cambodia.
It
was common knowledge that the boats there and troops WERE going into
Cambodia.

I don't believe you.

Why?


I was a Song Be, RVN

Good for you. Welcome home.




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"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
paghat wrote:

In article ,
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

Many people are not used to Democrats or Liberals or
anyone outside their primitive agenda, speaking out or giving
quotations, or citation on any information to rebuke their false
claims.

John Kerry said:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that
several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over
150
honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified
to
war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but
crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at
all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears,
cut off
heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and
turned
up the
power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians,
razed
villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs
for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South
Vietnam in
addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very
particular
ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country"

Truth, false claims, nuanced position, or perhaps slander? No wonder
those Swift boat vets are ****ed off.

Signed,
Conservative Democrat with no representation in the party as currently
formatted.

Amazing how loonies can hate a man for bravery & truth. Even when the
truth comes from a man who was there & was wounded, the rest of the
story
is just supposed to be covered up.

Kerry proved with actions that he has the capacity for personal bravery
up
to the point of risking his life to save others, serving his country to
the highest degree short of death, while George W. Bush draft-dodged &
went awol even from his non-duties in the National Guard the instant
drug-testing was required of him.

Kerry had the integrity to follow-up on his bravery in action up with
honesty in service to the world, in reporting what occurred happened in
Viet Nam. Bravery & honesty -- yuck, deplorable.

How sad that anyone on earth can so deplore the combination of bravery &
honesty. I'll never fathom how anyone purporting to care about vets
would
prefer for president a draft-dodging coward & pathological liar who has
sent men & women to die in battle for reasons that had no basis in
reality.

Machieveli said that the best way to destroy a good man is to find his
best & least assailable traits, & assail those. And people think Bush
doesn't know philosophy!

-paghat the ratgirl


AGREE!!!!
I spent two involuntary tours in Vietnam in the U.S. Army between 1967 and
1979 and I witnessed atrocities such as cutting off ears of the dead,
burning down villages, shooting of water buffalo and ducks and rape.
Those
in Vietnam who did not witness or perform such were probably garrison
troops in a headquarters unit.

Also, I spent some time at a place called Dong Tam in the Mekong Delta.
You
could climb a short distance up the comms tower and look into Cambodia.
It
was common knowledge that the boats there and troops WERE going into
Cambodia.

Yeah....but not the B-52s. smirk :-) That Kissinger....what a crazy guy.

Paul, I forwarded your message to my brother, with whom I'm having an
internet battle over these swift boat ads. But his response to your message
was "how does a person have two involuntary tours of duty to Vietnam?"
I'm presuming that you were given two separate assignments consecutively
there, but maybe I'm wrong. I will forward your response to him.
Thanks, Greg
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in
AGREE!!!!
I spent two involuntary tours in Vietnam in the U.S. Army between 1967 and
1979 and I witnessed atrocities such as cutting off ears of the dead,
burning down villages, shooting of water buffalo and ducks and rape.
Those
in Vietnam who did not witness or perform such were probably garrison
troops in a headquarters unit.

Also, I spent some time at a place called Dong Tam in the Mekong Delta.
You
could climb a short distance up the comms tower and look into Cambodia.
It
was common knowledge that the boats there and troops WERE going into
Cambodia.

gregpresley wrote:

Paul, I forwarded your message to my brother, with whom I'm having an
internet battle over these swift boat ads. But his response to your
message was "how does a person have two involuntary tours of duty to
Vietnam?" I'm presuming that you were given two separate assignments
consecutively there, but maybe I'm wrong. I will forward your response to
him.

I originally enlisted in the U.S. Army in July, 1965. I was going to be
drafted so I enlisted for three years hoping to get some schooling.

The recruiter told me I was going to be a radar repairman. He lied. I was
assigned to an Army Air Defense Command Nike Hercules site as an On the job
trainee as a radar "operator".

After one year, one was able to do what is called taking a "short" and
re-enlisting. I did this. This effectively ended my original three year
enlistment and I started on my second enlistment. This second enlistment
was for four years.

As part of my re-enlistment, I was permitted to select a school. I choose
Radio Relay repair school. The School was 7 months long and was at Ft.
Gordon, GA. After the 7 months, everyone in my class got orders for Ft.
Bragg. We thought we had lucked out of going to Vietnam.

When we got to Bragg, we were issued M-16s and told to report the the JAG
and fill out last wills and powers of attorney and we began training for
Vietnam. The company I was in all went to Vietnam on a boat (what a trip).

My first tour was in support of the 9th Infantry Division at Bear Cat and
Dong Tam. Dong Tam was also a base for the swift boats and "Brown Water
Navy". After one year in Vietnam (June 1967 to June 1968) I was sent home
on leave and then assigned to Ft. Hood, Texas. I served in both the First
Armored Division and Second Armored Division at Hood.

A little over a year at Ft. Hood, I came down on orders for Vietnam, AGAIN.
I complained and was told there was nothing I could do about it even though
I had slightly less than a year to go in the Army and my wife was pregnant.
The post chaplain said it was "God's will". I told him what I thought of
his god and said I did not see any god damn Vietnam medals on HIS uniform.

I shipped out again for Vietnam in September 1969 and my tour ended when my
enlistment was up in July, 1970. That is how I served TWO involuntary
tours in Vietnam. At least in those days, when you were sent to Vietnam
you KNEW when you were coming home. There were no INVOLUNTARY extensions
like there are today.

If your brother has any other questions, he can email me. Hope this helps.

Paul, thanks for your quick response. I have forwarded it to my brother. Bit
by bit, I think he's starting to realize that putting all of his eggs in the
swift boat veterans' basket might have been ill-advised. Unfortunately, a
lot of damage has already been done to Kerry. I get furious at the idea that
Bush has now impugned the reputations of THREE Vietnam vets - McLain,
Cleland, and Kerry, when neither he, nor his vice-president ever set foot in
Vietnam, or in any other military conflict. I wish the current members of
the military, all military veterans, and Vietnam vets in particular realized
that they have been played for fools in all of this - perhaps then they'd
get an inkling of what being "commander-in-chief" means to this President.