(IntarsiaCo) wrote in message ...
Many people are not used to Democrats or Liberals or
anyone outside their primitive agenda, speaking out or giving quotations, or
citation on any information to rebuke their false claims.

John Kerry said:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several
months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably
discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes
committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a
day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off
heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the
power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed
villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun,
poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in
addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular
ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country"

Truth, false claims, nuanced position, or perhaps slander? No wonder those
Swift boat vets are ****ed off.



You mean the Swift Boat Liars for Bush?

The one who claimed to have treated Kerry but didn't?

The one who at the time of the incident said it demonstrated Kerry's
courage and leadership but now says it was proof of his impulsiveness?

The one who now denies that Kerry was under fire, but whose own bronze
star citation for the same action refers to constant enemy fire?

The ones who didn't actually serve with Kerry, but now claim they did?


J. Del Col

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
IntarsiaCo wrote:

but I do know they are all somehow tied to the current
administration in some way.

And Bob Dole said:

Blah blah blah.

What Bob Dole said was in effect "Unless your wounds were as great or
greater than mine, you are a cry baby and don't deserve your purple heart.

I think Bob Dole owes ALL Veterans a BIG appology.

Also, remember that Bob Dole was nursed back to health by a lady he
eventually married - only to later have an adulterous affair with Liz,
dump
his wife and marry Liz. Another unappreciative compassionate
conservative.

Bob Dole appreciates each and every check from Pfizer that he earns by
promoting their erection facilitating drug, Viagra.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:18:43 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

The Watcher wrote:

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:04:39 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:

(snip)
The following was from a post on another newgroup about the helicopter
pilot who drew dawn on soldiers at My Lai and saved a few lives by doing
so.
This was on TV a couple weeks ago. The same type of individuals are the
ones questioning Kerry. The post follows:

How did you guys treat Hugh Thompson the helicopter pilot who risked his
life and stopped the killings at My
Lai?**Why*he*was*treated*as*a*traitor*by*his
fellow vets!**He*received*death*threats*and*the*officers* club*would*empty
when he walked in to have a drink.**The*U.S.*military*even*stopped
providing him with adequate back-up on his missions after My Lai!**Are
these*the*same Vietnam Vets who are now accusing Kerry of being a traitor?

I'd say the helicopter pilot is hardly in the same league as Kerry. He's
an honest and courageous man. Kerry, on the other hand........well, his
own words speak eloquently for him.

"You know I could run for governor but I'm basically a media creation. I've
never done anything. I've worked for my dad. I worked in the oil business.
But that's not the kind of profile you have to have to get elected to public
office."
-- Dubya in 1989

Nothing Bush says changes Kerry's lies to the truth.

In article , wrote:

How did you guys treat Hugh Thompson the helicopter pilot who risked his
life and stopped the killings at My
Lai?**Why*he*was*treated*as*a*traitor*by*his
fellow vets!**He*received*death*threats*and*the*officers* club*would*empty
when he walked in to have a drink.**The*U.S.*military*even*stopped*providing
him with adequate back-up on his missions after My Lai!**Are*these*the*same
Vietnam Vets who are now accusing Kerry of being a traitor?

THe men gathered together he
http://library.brandeis.edu/specialcollections/specialevents/ford/gallery/6_00-093-25.jpg
served with George Bush in Viet Nam.

The orchestrators behind the "vets against kerry" no-holds-barred smear
campaign are radical right-wing nutsacks who previously orchestrated a
campaign against John McCain when McCain was competing for GOP nomination
against Bush. McCain's years as a prisoner of war being cowardly compared
to Bush. The same man was behind the exact same pro-Bush win-at-any-cost
tactics attacking the patriotism of Sen. Max Cleland, who left three limbs
in Vietnam, but was still a coward & a traitor "akin to Osama bin Laden"
undeserving of office.

Foremost among the far-right nutsacks is a chap by the name of Karl Rove,
one of Bush's long-time chief political aides. Texas politicians believe
he almost single-handedly orchestrated Bush to governorship of Texas with
the long-term plan of making him president of the united states. THe
current plan is to keep him there. The money for Rowe's "Kerry's A
Traitor" event comes from Texan tycoon Bob Perry, who used to be Bush's #2
funding source, but is now #1 since Enron's x-CEO Ken Lay stopped
contributing. Bob Perry provided nearly all the funding for the actual
production of the inflamatory ad. Meanwhile, the public spokeswoman for
the anti-Kerry veterans is Texas republican & long-time Bushite Merrie
Spaeth, who formerly headed the campaign to make McCain look like a
traitor, has been a republican flack since Bush Senior was vice-president,
& whose late husband was Tex Lazar the GOP's lieutenant governor
candidate.

Without Bush's pal Rowe in command, none of it would happen. As the San
Antonia Express-News said yesterday, "Texas political observers recognize
these antics as textbook examples of things that seem to happen around
campaigns that involve Karl Rove, the long-time shadowy wunderkind of the
Texas GOP." Rove is behind all these "attack their patriotism" campaigns
in support of Bush. Rowe possesses a "mastery for distracting public
attention away from his candidate's weaknesses to focus on pointless
matters."

The New York Times found that the connections between Rowe's Texas
Republican & the Texas campaign to elect Bush are numerous and certain,
but there is an ongoing attempt to maintain a buffer between the Texas and
the National campaign so that at worst a few Texas campaigners will have
to fall on their sword & Bush himself can pretend never to have been
involved with the baseless smear campaign.

Jim Rassmann whose life John Kerry saved said that the group calling
themselves "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" have concocted "a pure
fabrication." One of the anti-Kerry vets, Larry Thurlow, was on ANOTHER
swift boat during the maneuvers. Thurlow's ship was fifty yards away, & he
now claims there was no enemy fire, so that Kerry's Bronze Star for heroic
action under fire was dishonestly obtained. Turns out, though, that
Thurlow also has a Bronze Star for actions on the same day in the same
river-battle. Thurlow's citation states, "all units came under small arms
and automatic weapons fire from the river banks." Yet Thurlow never
suggested HE should return his medal as falsely earned due to lack of
enemy fire.

John O'Neill, another of the vets speaking out against Kerry in the same
ad, has been the lead attorney for Texas Republican politics for years, &
has waged similar smear-campaigns since the Nixon years always in support
of republican candidates. He's a Texas Republican insider at the highest
ranks, whose client list has been called a "Who's Who of Texas
Republicans."

Kenneth Cordier, also appearing in the ad as a Swift Boat Veteran, was
even further into lala land than THurlow, who at least really WAS on
ANOTHER swift boat. Kenneth Cordier wasn't -- just an outright theatrical
piece for him. Not only was NOT a Swift Boat Veteran, but he IS an advisor
for the Veterans for Bush/Cheney Campaign 2004, & was vice-chair for
Campaign 2000. Just another insider doing his bit, but hooboy the depth of
lies they can concoct. Saturday Cordier quit resigned his Bush national
re-election position -- the first to fall on his sword for the cause,
though it's not much of a sword-fall, he WILL turn up again still in good
stead with Bush.

WIth the exception of right-wing Fox Cable News, & sundry far-right news
sources on the web, & right-wing radio shouters, all legitimate news
investigators have found the anti-Kerry Veterans campaign to be riddled
with fraud, lies, & baseless claims. But it doesn't matter. Karl Rove's
pro-Bush tactic always works -- an allegation made often enough is never
completely disbelieved, cuz when you want a lie to be believed, it has to
be a really big lie.

When Thurlow was outed as a liar by all credible news sources, Chris
Matthews' Hardball looked around for a far-right voice to speak in
Thurlow's defense. He found Michelle Malkin, whose greatest claim to fame
is her book IN DEFENSE OF INTERNMENT which states that putting Japanese
Americans in prisoner of war camps was a good idea in WWII, & it should be
done again today with Arabs. She stuck up for Thurlow's version of the
story which explains Kerry's war-wound as self-inflicted specifically
because it would look good if he ever decided to run for president decades
later. This is also the only reason he VOLUNTEERED for Swift Boat duty at
a time was experiencing a 75% casualty rate.

Thirteen veterans in the infamous flame-ad imply they served with Kerry,
but they apparently mean they were somewhere on the same river the same
day, because not one of them was a crewmate of Kerry's as they have so
clearly stated or implied. Those who ACTUALLY served WITH Kerry ON the
same boat as Kerry tell a cohesive story of his actions under fire saving
the lives of his fellow soldiers, & taking a bullet in the arm. Yet
Bushites found thirteen talking head vets willing to PRETEND to have stood
beside Kerry say none of it happened. When they call themselves "Swift
Boat Vets" they clearly mean to imply they were on Kerry's boat per se &
all testimony they give is first-hand observation, but not one of them was
on Kerry's boat.

Not so amusingly, the "testimony" of the Thirteen was very carefully
written (rather than just cleverly edited stories vets personally told).
Once you know that not one of them actually served with Kerry as a
crewmate, the written dialog turns out not actually to say they did --
"serving with Kerry," when they are cornered for the lies, turns out not
to mean they served beside him as crewmates per se, but they were in the
same war, so they served with Kerry. Except for Cordier of course, who was
never on Swift Boat duty at all -- how "deniability" legal expert O'Neill
& orchestrator Rowe let him into the stinking brew is a mystery, as it
rather spoils the plan to concoct a script that implies all sorts of
things it can later pretend they didn't specifically say.

Bush has repeatedly dodged all chances to condemn the ad, just as in 2000
he refused to denounce the Rove's earlier "veterans" group which was
attacking McCain's service record. (You can watch the video of Bush in
2000 when McCain was being identically attacked, he
http://www.johnkerry.com/video/console.php?video=082104_old_tricks#082104_old_tri cks
Just start the "Old Tricks" video -- & remember this week's news of Bush
having the exact same response to the exact same baseless campaign.

The Bush campaign needs only to repeat their lies often enough to cast
doubt. There ARE SO weapons of destruction; Kerry's war service was
COWARDLY. If enough people can be caused to doubt reality, then voters
won't be weighing the actual facts & will make their decision in a
befuddled cloud of not knowing what the hell is true. Knowing the truth
would mean it really is a choice between a lying Bush or an honest Kerry,
a draft-dodging Bush or a war-hero Kerry. Those are the factual
distinctions that have to be muddled by the Bush campaigners.

Some vets do hate Kerry for becoming an anti-war activist after his
service, & for later still obtaining congressional testimony from other
vets who saw atrocities committed by American soldiers. These truths will
forever be regarded as traitorous by vets who will never value quite so
much truth.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

ry/6_00-093-25.jpg
served with George Bush in Viet Nam.

Bush, Vietnam, I don't think so.

(IntarsiaCo) wrote in message ...
but I do know they are all somehow tied to the current
administration in some way.

And Bob Dole said:

"Not every one of these people can be Republican liars....


Wanna bet?

J. Del Col

Kerry's lies to the truth.

So, I'll ask once again, is this truth, slander or just a nuanced position?

John Kerry testified that:

"crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at
all levels of command...."

If it is not true, then we need an apology for this statement that so many have
carried for 30+ years so that we can discuss the things that matter:

entitlement vs. self reliance

social engineering via the tax code

tort reform

the UN as an effective means to solve world problems such as their lead role
that the UN has provoided for in Angola, Darfur, Botswana, etc

personal property rights

the new, more sensitive military

trade policy

"IntarsiaCo" wrote in message
...
ry/6_00-093-25.jpg
served with George Bush in Viet Nam.

Bush, Vietnam, I don't think so.

You obviously didn't click the link. It takes you to a picture of an empty
room. :-)

And Bob Dole said:

"Not every one of these people can be Republican liars....


Wanna bet?


Trolled, caught a fool.

In article ,
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

ry/6_00-093-25.jpg
served with George Bush in Viet Nam.

Bush, Vietnam, I don't think so.

You failed to look at the link, so you're kinda like the guy in the first
row in front of the Comedy Central soundstage with the puzzled look.

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

In article ,
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

Kerry's lies to the truth.

So, I'll ask once again, is this truth, slander or just a nuanced position?

John Kerry testified that:

"crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at
all levels of command...."


As you just admitted to Doug you're just trolling rather than attempting
to contribute anything worthwhile, I'll take the giant leap of faith that
you're not the retarded piece of poo you're pretending to be, & already
well know that the correct answer is always going to be OF COURSE it was &
will always remain true.

That was my generation & every man I know personally who saw action also
saw criminal actions in Viet Nam. Many I persist in believing many did not
participate, even though I can think of two friends who cannot look me
straight in the eye when they claim to have held back from what others
weredoing. But the only ones who seem to have come back uncertain were
clerks who scarsely ever got off base.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

It seems that you are claiming that there are over 2 million war criminals, a
leap of faith that I am unwilling to commit to. Your personal experiences are
in direct opposition to most of those brave and valiant soldiers to whom I have
spoken. Painting with such broad strokes as Kerry did with his testimony is
slanderous to those that served and died with honour and there is little proof
that crimes were committed with the "full awareness of officers at all levels
of command" as claimed during that testimony. Mr. Kerry owes an apology for his
over the top testimony (as even he has hinted at). A brave warrior such as
Kerry should have no problem admitting this mistake and then moving on (.org)
to other important matters.

PS: You demean yourself with the name calling, but if you wish to play handball
against the curb, let the games begin.

Signed,
Proud member of a proud military family fighting to preserve your rights and
safety through sacrifice, honour and courage.

"IntarsiaCo" wrote in message
...
It seems that you are claiming that there are over 2 million war
criminals, a
leap of faith that I am unwilling to commit to.

What she may be alluding to is the possibility that in a place where your
tent could mysteriously blow up even amongst "friends", it might not be a
stretch of the imagination to theorize that soldiers might be swept away by
the same mob rule that turns peaceful demonstrations ugly at times.



Proud member of a proud military family fighting to preserve your rights
and
safety through sacrifice, honour and courage.

Nobody's suggesting otherwise. However, our rights and safety were in no way
threatened by any factors which existed in Vietnam. You know that.

stretch of the imagination to theorize that soldiers might be swept away by
the same mob rule

He slandered all soldiers in Vietnam and he needs to apologize for the over the
top testimony that he gave before that congressional committee so that this can
be put to bed and we can get on with the business at hand. His silence is
deafening.

"IntarsiaCo" wrote in message
...
stretch of the imagination to theorize that soldiers might be swept away
by
the same mob rule

He slandered all soldiers in Vietnam and he needs to apologize for the
over the
top testimony that he gave before that congressional committee so that
this can
be put to bed and we can get on with the business at hand. His silence is
deafening.

So is your president's.