Atlas wrote:

I'm italian.

Italy's citruses are quite famous.

Nevertheless there has been a long debate about how to fight calcium
carbonate in water, for feeding plants (citruses), in an italian gardening
newsgroup, and I couldn't get through it to make the right choice.

That's how it all began

It is well known how calcium carbonates (either in water or in the soil)
limits the proper absorption of essentials minerals, tipically iron,
magnesium and manganese (chlorosis), and how these problem is magnified when
pots are used for containing the plants.

Also using pots has worst effects due to higher concentration of deposits.

In my case I have to deal with a very calcareus water, a high Ph (8/8,5).

I haven't got a detailed analysis of the water.

I know that to have a properly targeted advise I should know important
information about active calcium carbonate, Ph, electric conductivity and so
forth.

Nevertheless speaking with a citrus expert, I've been advised to put some
citric acid into the water (30g per 100 Liters) to break calcium carbonate.

And here the debate began.

Some people said that citric acid can break calcium carbonate, but leaves
calcium ions in the water, makeing it soluble and ready to the plants. They
where thinking that the effect is worst.

This is were my question comes in.

1) Are the effects of the calcium carbonate worst of soluble calcium?

2) Is it possible to "rinse" the soil in the pots to wash out calcium
carbonate and salts left out from fertilizers?

Is there any effective (cheap test) to work it out? I would like to avoid
water analysis but, if it is the only way to set a proper strategy I will go
through it.

Thanks

P.S. - The soil isn't calcareous. It is made on purpose for citruses.

I have dwarf citrus growing in containers; see my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/dwarf_citrus.html. I use a potting
mix that tends to be acidic because of the large amount of peat
moss; see my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_potting_mix.html. The mix
also contains bone meal and gypsum, both of which are sources of
calcium.

Since the mix drains well, nutrients leach away. This is
accelerated by the fact that the containers are slightly elevated
on loose bricks and do not sit in any saucers or non-draining outer
containers. Thus, I have to feed frequently (but lightly to avoid
burning confined roots). I alternate between a commercial citrus
food and ammonium sulfate. Because citrus is sensitive to a lack
of zinc, I also give small doses of zinc sulfate. All of these are
acidic.

I think my home-made potting mix along with proper feeding will
counteract any alkalinity or salinity of your water. If the water
is really bad, you might have to renew the gypsum once or twice a
year.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening pages at http://www.rossde.com/garden/

Dave thanks for answering.

I have dwarf citrus growing in containers; see my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/dwarf_citrus.html. I use a potting
mix that tends to be acidic because of the large amount of peat
moss; see my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_potting_mix.html. The mix
also contains bone meal and gypsum, both of which are sources of
calcium.

Since the mix drains well, nutrients leach away. This is
accelerated by the fact that the containers are slightly elevated
on loose bricks and do not sit in any saucers or non-draining outer
containers. Thus, I have to feed frequently (but lightly to avoid
burning confined roots). I alternate between a commercial citrus
food and ammonium sulfate. Because citrus is sensitive to a lack
of zinc, I also give small doses of zinc sulfate. All of these are
acidic.


Even mine are elevated on bricks, used to be fine with their soil, renewed
every two years, using a specific mixture of meso and micro elements
designed specifically for citrus.
Probably this year I've exceeded a little bit fertilizers and this may have
altered proper absorption ef elements.

http://www.angelfire.com/blog/herman...esio/index.htm

Have a look at those pics of the lemons of mine, about magnesium
deficiencies I've posted lately.

Nevertheless the water is very bad in term of calcium carbonate, high Ph
(8/8.5).

Still wondering for the future if soluble calcium ions can be more dangerous
for the lemons instead of the calcium carbonate...

Thanks for answering again and wishing to continue this freindly
conversation.

Regards

I looked at your photos. If there is a nutrient or salt problem,
it is minor. Your plants look quite healthy with only slight
chlorosis.

However, the container looks quite small. My dwarf citrus are in
18 inch (45 cm) redwood tubs, cylindrical and as deep as they are
across. I will soon replace one tub that is rotting with a
terra-cotta pot 20 inches (51 cm) across -- tapering to slightly
less at the bottom -- and 17 inches (43 cm) deep. It is very
similar to the pot in your IMG_3231.jpg.

You need a large container so that you can keep the soil moist
without it getting soggy. Too much water in the soil is as bad as
the wrong pH or too many minerals. Indeed, excess water causes
chlorosis.

With a large container and an acidic, well draining potting mix
(with acidity maintained with acidic fertilizers), any excess
calcium in the water or nutrients will readily leach away. This
cannot work, however, in a small container because the soil gets
too soggy before proper leaching occurs.

--

David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening pages at http://www.rossde.com/garden/

"David Ross" wrote in message
...
I looked at your photos. If there is a nutrient or salt problem,
it is minor. Your plants look quite healthy with only slight
chlorosis.




I've added e few pix there if like to share opinions.
http://www.angelfire.com/blog/hermann188/

However, the container looks quite small. My dwarf citrus are in
18 inch (45 cm) redwood tubs, cylindrical and as deep as they are
across. I will soon replace one tub that is rotting with a
terra-cotta pot 20 inches (51 cm) across -- tapering to slightly
less at the bottom -- and 17 inches (43 cm) deep. It is very
similar to the pot in your IMG_3231.jpg.

You aren't the first person that argues about the pot size...my "guru" here
in Italy told me that the foliage shouldn't exceed 15% of the pot size
(diameter).
It looks like he is right, looking at those pix I've shooted them this
summer at his site:
http://www.angelfire.com/blog/herman...ence/index.htm .....
For the height of the pot, I've read on a technical citrus book that the
roots widespread instead of moving down a lot...It looks like the diameter
is more important than the depth. Looking at the pix of the "Guru" it looks
like they're using conical pots instead of cylindrical (forgive my english!)


You need a large container so that you can keep the soil moist
without it getting soggy. Too much water in the soil is as bad as
the wrong pH or too many minerals. Indeed, excess water causes
chlorosis.

My guru says the soil should be always moist, but not soggy. To achieve so,
I was advised to stuff 1/3 of the pot height with stones, etc to drain
perfectly the water. Also elevating the pots would help. And I did so.
To keep the soil moist I need to water the plants every day in august.


With a large container and an acidic, well draining potting mix
(with acidity maintained with acidic fertilizers), any excess
calcium in the water or nutrients will readily leach away. This
cannot work, however, in a small container because the soil gets
too soggy before proper leaching occurs.

Maybe the slight chlorosis occured for multiple factors:
- Fertilizers excess
- Calcium carbonate and high Ph.

At the moment I've removed the old fertilzer and feeded the plants with a
special chelating micro elements mixture, that is to be used when
deficiencies occurs
(http://www.gtozturfservices.com/page.../chelamix.html).

At the same time I'm using demineralized water hopeing it helps to melt
salts eccess and calcium carbonate in the soil.

Let's cross our fingers

Hoping to here from you...

Best regards




--

David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening pages at http://www.rossde.com/garden/

"Atlas" wrote:
...snipmagnesium deficiency/snip...

I've added e few pix there if like to share opinions.
http://www.angelfire.com/blog/hermann188/

My understanding, it applies to the Human body as well
as plants, is that calcium and magnesium need each other.

I don't know much about the details or what the right
answer is, but if you have an excessive amount of calcium
it might be that the magnesium deficiency is because of
the excess calcium. I don't know what the ration of calcium
to magnesium should be but there IS a ratio. They seem
to be directly proportional as well.

So if you have excessive calcium, you have a few options:
1) Change the calcium in some manner where it won't
be utilized, thus balancing the magnesium/calcium,

2) Add more magnesium, thus balancing the magnesium
and calcium. (I don't know what a good source for this
would be, but maybe banana peels? I just don't know.
Someone else might be able to suggest something.
Banana peels add potassium and nitrogen.)

3) Perhaps there is something that feeds off calcium, a
bug of some sort that could use the calcium and be
happy. This goes back to 1) above, but I thought I
would provide it as a separate item. Maybe someone
else has an idea or a suggestion.

Just throwing ideas up in the air. I only have clues, not
answers.

I think epsom salt is a good source of magnesium. I've got
a feeling though banana peels might be a better thing to put
into the soil. Don't take my word for it though. I just don't
know.

As far as pot size goes, I think of it like this... The pot
should be as wide as the branches. The reason being,
center of gravity. Think of it like this, if you have a huge
tree that grows high and branches out wide, it needs the
support underneath it, otherwise a small wind could blow
it over and uproot it. Kind of makes replanting it to soil
a little harder, but if you intend to keep it in a pot, I tend
to think the pot should be as big as the average width of
the longest branches.

--
Jim Carlock
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