I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

In article , "James"
wrote:

I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

Nature Conservancy's Invasive Species Initiative requests that people
voluntarily stop planting these trees even in places where they are not
yet illegal. They sometimes sucker & invariably self-seed like weeds, to
the point of being invasive. They are illegal in about a dozen states, &
are on lists recommended for banning in several more regions. In
Connecticut for example (as of this past October) you can be fined a
hundred dollars for planting, transplanting, or selling paulownia. The
species has already proven itself a danger to native species in several
areas around the United States, being worst in the east, south &
southwest, but not yet too late to keep it from spreading throughout the
west.

They grow rapidly but have weak wood that easily rots from the inside
which is naturally hollow. They can snap at any point along the trunk in
storms, threatening nearby structures. They are not especially longlived
trees. It is recommended at the very least that they be planted only with
caution, & their use is strongly discouraged even where still legal. There
are so many finer safer choices that can be made.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Don't do it, Jim Bob.

Its one of the worst weed trees.


"James" wrote in message
...
I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "James"
wrote:

I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row
of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these
trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

Nature Conservancy's Invasive Species Initiative requests that people
voluntarily stop planting these trees even in places where they are not
yet illegal. They sometimes sucker & invariably self-seed like weeds, to
the point of being invasive. They are illegal in about a dozen states, &
are on lists recommended for banning in several more regions. In
Connecticut for example (as of this past October) you can be fined a
hundred dollars for planting, transplanting, or selling paulownia. The
species has already proven itself a danger to native species in several
areas around the United States, being worst in the east, south &
southwest, but not yet too late to keep it from spreading throughout the
west.

They grow rapidly but have weak wood that easily rots from the inside
which is naturally hollow. They can snap at any point along the trunk in
storms, threatening nearby structures. They are not especially longlived
trees. It is recommended at the very least that they be planted only with
caution, & their use is strongly discouraged even where still legal. There
are so many finer safer choices that can be made.

-paghat the ratgirl


Know of a good substitute for this fast growing tree?

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "James"
wrote:

I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row
of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these
trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

Nature Conservancy's Invasive Species Initiative requests that people
voluntarily stop planting these trees even in places where they are not
yet illegal. They sometimes sucker & invariably self-seed like weeds, to
the point of being invasive. They are illegal in about a dozen states, &
are on lists recommended for banning in several more regions. In
Connecticut for example (as of this past October) you can be fined a
hundred dollars for planting, transplanting, or selling paulownia. The
species has already proven itself a danger to native species in several
areas around the United States, being worst in the east, south &
southwest, but not yet too late to keep it from spreading throughout the
west.

I can attest to the fact that they are prolific throughout the southeast.
They're a common tree here in Eastern Tennessee. And yes, they do sucker.
I have a daughter that has risen up on the roots of her mama a few feet down
my side slope.

They grow rapidly but have weak wood that easily rots from the inside
which is naturally hollow.

I don't know about the wood being weak though. I have a Pawlonia tree, and
yes, she is hollow in the middle. But she only drops the ends of her twigs
where the pods are all at. The pods are a pain in the butt, but the flowers
(this tree is also called the Foxglove tree) are georgous and smell like
grape Nehi. The leaves are fuzzy and if you cut the young trees to the
ground each fall, they send up spring shoots and the leaves are as big as
three foot across sometimes.

The Chinese people use the wood as dowery boxes for their daughters because
it resists rotting and burning. I've only been able to burn the wood when
the wood pile is glowing hot and would probably fire clay. It just doesn't
start like most woods do. As for rotting.......I have the branches of this
tree that were cut for me when they grew over the electrical wires in the
side yard by the electric company laid out around the edges of a garden bed
and except for the bark that finally came loose, the wood isn't rotten yet
and that was three years ago.

They can snap at any point along the trunk in
storms, threatening nearby structures.

I've NEVER had any limbs snap off along the trunk on my Pawlonia (I have
pictures of her to prove it) and this tree apparently has been here now for
over 90 years. Which approaches that remark made below. So 90 years isn't
very long, not compared to an oak tree that has to be 50 to produce acorns,
but I will say they are messy with their pods and large leaves in the fall.

They are not especially long
lived trees.

It is recommended at the very least that they be planted only with
caution, & their use is strongly discouraged even where still legal. There
are so many finer safer choices that can be made.

And I AGREE there are other alternatives. But I have three Pawlonia's and
until the old mother tree shows me signs that she is about done, I think
they last at least several decades. Which is more than I can say for those
horrible Bradford pear trees. And I just checked the wood around the beds
yesterday for rot is why I wonder how long the wood takes to decompose. I
only had to pick up a few end branches with the brown pods as they bloom on
new growth, but no limbs or large branches or even smaller branches. Only
the end pieces.

Try other trees, and check with your local Agricultural extension agent for
good trees to line your driveway with for your location.

madgardener

I have to agree it is considered a weed tree. There are too many other good
trees to consider. Cereus and Paghat are correct that it's a weed tree.
"Cereus-validus..." wrote in message
m...
Don't do it, Jim Bob.

Its one of the worst weed trees.


"James" wrote in message
...
I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row
of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these
trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

If you want to grow a similar looking tree that is better behaved, try
Catalpa instead.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...nonioides.html

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c..._speciosa.html


"James" wrote in message
...

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "James"
wrote:

I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row
of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these
trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

Nature Conservancy's Invasive Species Initiative requests that people
voluntarily stop planting these trees even in places where they are not
yet illegal. They sometimes sucker & invariably self-seed like weeds, to
the point of being invasive. They are illegal in about a dozen states, &
are on lists recommended for banning in several more regions. In
Connecticut for example (as of this past October) you can be fined a
hundred dollars for planting, transplanting, or selling paulownia. The
species has already proven itself a danger to native species in several
areas around the United States, being worst in the east, south &
southwest, but not yet too late to keep it from spreading throughout the
west.

They grow rapidly but have weak wood that easily rots from the inside
which is naturally hollow. They can snap at any point along the trunk in
storms, threatening nearby structures. They are not especially longlived
trees. It is recommended at the very least that they be planted only with
caution, & their use is strongly discouraged even where still legal.
There
are so many finer safer choices that can be made.

-paghat the ratgirl


Know of a good substitute for this fast growing tree?

paghat wrote:

In article , "James"
wrote:


I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?


Nature Conservancy's Invasive Species Initiative requests that people
voluntarily stop planting these trees even in places where they are not
yet illegal. They sometimes sucker & invariably self-seed like weeds,

Bit sweeping. We've had one for 30 odd years. Never seen a seedpod or
(unsurprisingly) a seedling in all of that time. It'll be better
than 30 feet high.

It will sucker if you cut the root, but IME nowhere near as badly
as (say) Populus tremuloides. Gonna ban that one too? :-)

Ten minutes with a spade once a year keeps our Palownia in check.
The first year growths are very soft and easy to knock off in winter.

to the point of being invasive.

Climate makes a very big difference to how a species behaves. The suits
flying desks that ban these things rarely take that into account.

In Connecticut for example (as of this past October) you can be fined a
hundred dollars for planting, transplanting, or selling paulownia.

In that case I'm glad I don't live in Conneticut.

Its a good tree.


Rob.
--

In article , "madgardener" wrote:

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "James"
wrote:

I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a row
of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these
trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

Nature Conservancy's Invasive Species Initiative requests that people
voluntarily stop planting these trees even in places where they are not
yet illegal. They sometimes sucker & invariably self-seed like weeds, to
the point of being invasive. They are illegal in about a dozen states, &
are on lists recommended for banning in several more regions. In
Connecticut for example (as of this past October) you can be fined a
hundred dollars for planting, transplanting, or selling paulownia. The
species has already proven itself a danger to native species in several
areas around the United States, being worst in the east, south &
southwest, but not yet too late to keep it from spreading throughout the
west.

I can attest to the fact that they are prolific throughout the southeast.
They're a common tree here in Eastern Tennessee. And yes, they do sucker.
I have a daughter that has risen up on the roots of her mama a few feet down
my side slope.

The tree is the kudzu of Tennessee. Since it's far too late for it to ever
be gotten rid of -- it's there to stay! -- the University of Tennessee has
been doing studies on how it can be used for regional forestry products, &
Tennessee is becoming something of the Paulownia capital of North America
looking for further economic gains from the tree rather than fighting it
off. It's not the ecologically soundest choice, but it's too late to ban
it so the state's attitude seems to be "let's see what we can gain from
it."

They grow rapidly but have weak wood that easily rots from the inside
which is naturally hollow.

I don't know about the wood being weak though. I have a Pawlonia tree, and
yes, she is hollow in the middle. But she only drops the ends of her twigs
where the pods are all at. The pods are a pain in the butt, but the flowers
(this tree is also called the Foxglove tree) are georgous and smell like
grape Nehi. The leaves are fuzzy and if you cut the young trees to the
ground each fall, they send up spring shoots and the leaves are as big as
three foot across sometimes.

Our native Pacific red elderberry is also extremely HARD wood that can be
used to make extremely hard objects, but a big Pacific elder can be
knocked right over even by a bear or a moderate wind. They can grow ten
feet in a single year so are very weak, despite the surprising hardness of
the brittle wood.

Poulownia wood is rot resistant once it is turned into wood products, &
the outer part of the trunk can be used to build something that sits on
damp soil for decades & barely rot. But a living paulownia tree is
susceptible to a whole host of diseases, & most especially root, ring, &
basal rot caused by fungus, which soon extends through the interior of the
tree. The outside of the trunk might never show advance signs of a
problem. Rot can also enter a tree through broken limbs, or reach the pith
through the circlular tissue plates that appear at intervals along the
trunk, especially when limbs break off or are pruned from these tissue
plates which are quite thin. Emilycompost.com notes that "Canker, die
back, powdery mildew, wood rot and mushroom rot are the most common"
problems, of many, experienced by pawlonias.

Adult trees that drop the ends of their limbs with great ease are showing
signs of systemic pith rot; new tissue for young limbs is being infected
through the rings, so the trees become weak-stemmed. These trees may seem
strong at the outer wood, but can snap in two high winds, at any
tissue-ring along the trunk. Anything else that grows as fast as
pooulownia will also be susceptible to blow-down, so if blow-down would
mean crushing anything someone didn't want crushed, like house or garage,
then trees that grow swifter than a foot a year are not sensible choices.
Trees that put on ten to twelve inches a year are fast enough, without
loss of structural strength. If it doesn't matter that it'll be at risk
for blow-down, then a large species of willow or a poplar will be better
choices among speed-growers because not invasive.

Young poulownias prepared for market are slathered in fungicides because
of their notorious rot problem. Often rot is already present long before
the young trees reach retail vendors; & fungicides are soaked into the
rootball as it is packed in sphagnum to ship from grower to nurseries.
Some people have the impression that young poulownias are particularly
susceptible to rot & need babying their first few years, but this
impression is due to the poor production methods that merely use
fungicides to keep the fungus from progressing much until the product can
be sold.

I suspect even if never touched by the fungus the wood would still be
brittle & susceptible to breakage in storms.

Some of the problems are no worse than for old willows or giant old
maples, so needn't be cause for complete paranoia, but rot does often
develop sooner in the heart of poulownia than for a maple because the
poulownia matures (then declines) so much more rapidly. The bigger reason
not to plant them is probably still going to be their problem as major
invasives.

Horse chestnuts, especially a cultivar like the pink-flowering hybrids,
can be a good substitute for poulownia. Walnut can be a good substitute
but walnut will not permit much to grow inside its drip-line. Locally
native species of maples & willows could also be assessed for their
possibilities, since many salix or acer natives grow very fast & would be
low-maintenance for the regions they evolved in.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

I did some reading and I believe Catalpa may be a better choice for waht I
had in mind.


"Cereus-validus..." wrote in message
. com...
If you want to grow a similar looking tree that is better behaved, try
Catalpa instead.


http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...ew/catalpa_big
nonioides.html


http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...ew/catalpa_spe
ciosa.html


"James" wrote in message
...

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "James"
wrote:

I'm wanting to start some Royal Empress trees from seed and plant a
row
of
them along my long driveway. ( PAULOWNIA tomentosa) Anyone had these
trees
and am wondering about any drawbacks to the idea?

Nature Conservancy's Invasive Species Initiative requests that people
voluntarily stop planting these trees even in places where they are not
yet illegal. They sometimes sucker & invariably self-seed like weeds,
to
the point of being invasive. They are illegal in about a dozen states,
&
are on lists recommended for banning in several more regions. In
Connecticut for example (as of this past October) you can be fined a
hundred dollars for planting, transplanting, or selling paulownia. The
species has already proven itself a danger to native species in several
areas around the United States, being worst in the east, south &
southwest, but not yet too late to keep it from spreading throughout
the
west.

They grow rapidly but have weak wood that easily rots from the inside
which is naturally hollow. They can snap at any point along the trunk
in
storms, threatening nearby structures. They are not especially
longlived
trees. It is recommended at the very least that they be planted only
with
caution, & their use is strongly discouraged even where still legal.
There
are so many finer safer choices that can be made.

-paghat the ratgirl


Know of a good substitute for this fast growing tree?

Rob Davison expounded:

Bit sweeping. We've had one for 30 odd years. Never seen a seedpod or
(unsurprisingly) a seedling in all of that time. It'll be better
than 30 feet high.

Same thing here, there's one the next town over, only one I've ever
seen around here. They're not hardy enough around here to get very
invasive (which doesn't take away from the fact they are a horrid weed
tree in warmer areas of the country).

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

Ann wrote:

Rob Davison expounded:


Bit sweeping. We've had one for 30 odd years. Never seen a seedpod or
(unsurprisingly) a seedling in all of that time. It'll be better
than 30 feet high.


Same thing here, there's one the next town over, only one I've ever
seen around here.

Zone 6a? I'm surprised you can grow it at all there.

We're somewhere around 8a-8b as near as I can make out (though with a
distinctly maritime climate). Extreme south of New Zealand.

I think our non-event summers cause it more unhappiness here than the
winter or spring frosts.

They're not hardy enough around here to get very
invasive (which doesn't take away from the fact they are a horrid weed
tree in warmer areas of the country).

Hm. Not meaning to offend anyone, but I'm not sure I entirely understand
the 'horrid weed tree' attitude.

Here Gorse, Broom and Elderberry are all classed as noxious weeds but
if I thought about it I could find something good to say about all
of them.

It isn't the plants fault that it is successful and the over-the-top
(xenophobic!) reaction when you mention things like Lythrum or Tree of
Heaven to some people strikes me as surpassingly strange.

I particularly appreciate the look (and smell) of a hillside covered
in gorse flower in late spring. Farmers kill millions of seedlings
each year to keep it off prime land and I do my share - but there is
no way I'd kill off the last plant. Nor would I wish it off the face
of the earth. Not even my bit of it.


Rob.
--

Rob Davison expounded:

Hm. Not meaning to offend anyone, but I'm not sure I entirely understand
the 'horrid weed tree' attitude.

A horrid weed tree invades and drives out native species. Around here
the horrid weed tree is the Norway Maple, it's invading forests,
deeply shading the ground below (kills ephemerals) and shades the
native tree seedlings, understory shrubs, etc. Not a nice plant. Of
course it isn't the weed tree's 'fault', it's not a sentient being.
But allowing the spread of non-native species is not a good thing to
do, if you can avoid planting the invader, then you should do so.
Growing the plant where it belongs is one thing, growing an invasive
species where there are no natural controls is another. I wouldn't
wipe the last of anything out, but there comes a limit.

I'm a member of the New England Wildflower Society, the subject of
invasives is near and dear to many of our hearts. I don't want purple
loosestrife killing off our beautiful native cardinal flower (lobelia
cardinalis), no matter how pretty the purple marshes look.
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

Rob Davison expounded: Not meaning to offend anyone, but I'm not sure I
entirely understand
the 'horrid weed tree' attitude.

You're in New Zealand, where things may be under better control. You would
understand if you spent hours every spring pulling Norway maple seedlings out
of your flower beds, or if you saw the migratory birds going hungry because the
purple loosestrife crowded out their food plants.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen

Iris Cohen wrote:
Rob Davison expounded:


Not meaning to offend anyone, but I'm not sure I
entirely understand the 'horrid weed tree' attitude.


You're in New Zealand, where things may be under better control.

Hi Iris. For your information until quite recently NZ had no
'pest plant' control laws at all.

On the one hand our geographical isolation has helped to limit the
arrival of exotic plants and animals - but on the other that same
isolation has produced specialised plants and birds which do
not tolerate a change in the ecological balance at all well.

I believe that change is a part of nature however (and a part of
gardening!) and feel that those who seek to control and prevent
all change, who seek to 'preserve' nature without accepting the
fact that it is by its very nature(ha!) a dynamic, evolving,
system are working on something far more artificial and ultimately
more damaging to the environment than the introduction of new
species - which happens without human intervention anyway.

In the long run they're also on a hiding to nothing as we're all
on the same ball of rock. Keeping an eye on that fact is far
more important than trying to wall off your particular bit of
it from the rest.

I do not advocate open slather. I do advocate commonsense, education
and personal experience of how the natural world really works.

You would understand if you spent hours every spring pulling Norway maple
seedlings out of your flower beds,

How about hours crawling around under old Rhododendrons looking for the
roots of Elderberry, Blackberry and mulenbeckia vine (two out of the
three are exotic here. The native is the biggest weed. Go figure...) ?


Or hours tracing chickweed plants through wet Astilbes to find their
hairlike root (how such a fine root supports so much lush top is
truly amazing)?
http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/30800907


Hours spent picking creeping epilobium, clover and native orchid out of
the heather garden?
http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/15553064

That same area is also infested with two garden plants that 'do too
well' here. Viola biflora and Scilla campanulata. We work at keeping
them away from that part of the garden as they don't fit with the
neat shapes of the ericas, callunas and dwarf conifers.


Time spent ripping lotus out of clumps of sibirian and higo iris
perhaps?

Spraying tall willow weed (another epilobium) and californian thistle
around newer plantings of rhododendrons, shrubs, dormant daffodil and
colchicum borders?
http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/4936223
http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/15585714
http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/23342262

Pulling swamp grass in patches of Ishriach hybrid primulas and
P. japonica? http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/24189585

Tellima grandiflora that (left unmolested) will climb on top of a
healthy clump of Hosta and smother it?

Purple creeping oxalis crawling around the rock garden?

All of the above, plus a few more making merry in the perennial borders?
http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/7327907


Would my lifetime (34 years and counting) involved in such activities
do me in lieu of your experience with Acer platanoides do you think?

Does it add weight to my opinion, or at least grant me the right to
hold and express one that I'm well aware is (at least in part) contrary
to the prevailing eco-friendly, 'green' point of view espoused by so
many city dwellers?


My elderly parents and I have a garden of about 20 acres in size
called Maple Glen. We design, create and keep it by ourselves, for
ourselves and we're still extending it.
http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/image/25803639
http://www.mapleglen.co.nz/

Believe me Iris, I know my weeds.

I also know which garden plants have the potential to become weeds in
our location and what to do about it. I do not appreciate being told
that I can no longer grow something on my own land that has lived here
(without causing much trouble) for 40 odd years by somebody with soft
hands and no honest dirt under their fingernails who has read a study
that finds the plant in question causes serious trouble in southern
Louisiana and then decides on that basis to ban it here - where the only
thing between us and the earths south pole are a couple of penguins.

There is also (I believe) a political agenda at work and that riles
me too. If people want to grow only natives then that is fine by me.
I defend their right to grow whatever they want on their bit of dirt.

Provided they grant me the same.

Now, how much of the above do you have trouble with and if you disagree
with me (as I assume you will) can we at least see each others point of
view and agree to disagree? :-)


Rob.
--
Maple Glen http://www.mapleglen.co.nz/
Images http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/