"Travis" wrote in message
news:reP%d.19555$oa6.11927@trnddc07...
Lar wrote:
In article EKK%d.15882$oa6.10473@trnddc07,
lid says...
From the Columbia Encyclopedia:
"A dilute water solution of boric acid is commonly used as a
mild antiseptic and eyewash."

So it isn't always "EXTREMELY TOXIC".



You are comparing usage of boric acid to a solution containing boric
acid in a much diluted form. Hydrochloric Acid is also found in
many eye drops, but I don't think I would consider it safe to work
with or put out in the environment.

Please name two eye drops that contain hydrocloric acid.

Lar already too care of your question, but also, it's in our stomachs. You
have to think about concentration before you make blanket statements.

In article reP%d.19555$oa6.11927@trnddc07, "Travis"
wrote:

Lar wrote:
In article EKK%d.15882$oa6.10473@trnddc07,
lid says...
From the Columbia Encyclopedia:
"A dilute water solution of boric acid is commonly used as a
mild antiseptic and eyewash."

So it isn't always "EXTREMELY TOXIC".



You are comparing usage of boric acid to a solution containing boric
acid in a much diluted form. Hydrochloric Acid is also found in
many eye drops, but I don't think I would consider it safe to work
with or put out in the environment.

Please name two eye drops that contain hydrocloric acid.

Tears Naturale Forte & Refresh Tears Lubricant & Alphagan Eyedrops &
Moisture Eyes Liquid Gel & Azoptic Eye Drops & Tropicamide Eye Drops, ad
infinitum. If you would learn how to google you wouldn't have to ask quite
such easy questions.

-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
people maintaining a free civil government." -Thomas Jefferson

In article . com, "gnb"
wrote:

S Orth wrote:
I would be afraid the pesticide would be taken up by the plants.
First,
read the label to see what it says about using it near edibles. Here
in
Wisconsin we don't have fire ants, but our first line ant removal
recommendation is to douse the hill DEEPLY with hot water. I imagine
you'll
have to be careful with the water temp so close to your plant's
roots, but
sometimes just drenching the soil with water makes it too wet for a
good ant
habitat.

Good luck!
Suzy in Wisconsin, Zone 5


After reading this thread, I've decided not to use any chemicals at
all. I'll just irritate them with deep waterings and disturbing their
mound until they move on. I'll spend the entire summer chasing them
around.
Thank you for your reply,
Gayle

The organic method is a bait that contains the bacterium spinosad. This
bait is cast over an entire yard & garden so that ants gather it up in the
usual course of their food hunts. They take it in their nest, feed it to
their larvae, & starts a paralytic disease in the whole colony. This is
usually done together with d-limonine mound drenches which is essentially
citrus oil. Annoyance plus bacterial disease equals control. Here you can
find a PDF file on spinosad & mound drenching:
http://fireant.tamu.edu/materials/fa...39_2002rev.pdf

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
people maintaining a free civil government." -Thomas Jefferson

Lar wrote:
In article reP%d.19555$oa6.11927@trnddc07,
lid says...
Please name two eye drops that contain hydrocloric acid.


Nonmedicinal ingredients: benzalkonium chloride, boric acid,
disodium edetate, purified distilled water, sodium chloride. pH
adjusted to 6.4 with sodium hydroxide or hydrochloric acid.

http://mediresource.sympatico.ca/dru...d_name_id=1885
&channel_id=139&dowhat=accept_disclaimer
************************************************** **********************

It is there I will admit but it is also buffered (neutralized).

--

Travis in Shoreline Washington

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:52:22 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

I haven't seen anyone recommend nematodes. Not only will they control
ants but other soil insects. Fleas, termites, and etc.

In article , wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:52:22 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

I haven't seen anyone recommend nematodes. Not only will they control
ants but other soil insects. Fleas, termites, and etc.

Nematodes are not an effective fire-ant control. Fire ants detect the
nematodes & easily evade them. Occasionally a nest is disrupted by the
application of nematodes because of the great amount of water that must be
applied with the nematodes; nuisance-factors like having to dodge
nematodes or getting deeply drenched with water is not the same thing as
the nematodes actually controlling them.

To quote Dr Dunn of the University of Florida Department of Entomology &
Nematology: "Although beneficial nematodes might be used to get fire ants
out of gardens by disturbing them, the same effect can be obtained at no
extra cost by pouring hot water onto the mounds or by mechanical
disturbance."
http://ipm.ifas.ufl.edu/applying/tactics/biological-control/fire_ants_nematodes.htm

Steve Tveden, author of The Best Control, notes that commercial
insecticides are also ineffective for fire ants, to whit: "aggressive
insecticide (poison) treatment of critical habitat can have a greater
negative impact on a sensitive environment, and volatile, synthetic
insecticide poisons have never proven to really control fire ants anywhere
- there generally are more fire ants after an 'aggressive' poison campaign
than before." For this reason it is not a logical option even for
non-organic gardeners who'd be glad to use extreme toxins if they'd at
least work.

Burning has also been proven to be ineffective & has even caused greater
population explosions.

Tveden notes that regular drenches with boiling water eradicates 60% of
fire ant colonies because any recurring nuisance factor causes survivors
of the scaldings to up & move. Citrus drenches are even better because
d-limonine is somewhat toxic to fire ants -- not very toxic, but it causes
a lingering disruption whereas boiling water is only disruptive for a few
minutes at a time. Dr. Bronner's Liquid Peppermint Soap also kills a few,
distresses the survivors, & induces abandonment of an area.

Daily digging into & stirring up the nest will also eventually get them to
move & become someone else's problem, though digging into the mound is
always something of a risk of getting bitten. One effective trick
(according to Tveden) is to hard-pack the nest by driving over it just
before a hard freeze; it completely destroys their nest for successful
overwintering at a time when they are going dormant & unable to effect
repairs.

Most of the biological controls only cause disease in a small percentage
of the colony, & is in great part just another nuisance factor that causes
ants to leave, as they know when a pathogen is present. Many biological
controls have been tested & the majority found to be close to useless
(sometimes infecting or killing less than 1% of a colony) but spinosad
infects 15% minimally & in some cases an entire colony. Used in
combination with d-limonine drenches gives much better results.

Ants unfortunately have a great ability to learn, &amp while excellent
control of fire ants can be achieved within five weeks of carefully timed
spinosad baiting (ideally in "dog days" of a warm autumn), eventually the
ants figure out it's the bait that's killing them, so effectiveness is not
so dramatic if it is too soon needed again. It is most effective where
colonies are few & distant from one another, probably because small
isolated colonies are slower to learn what's killing them, & can't hold
out long enough to figure out they should stop gathering the bait.

The sponosad field studies are from around 1998-2001, so older literature
on the topic indicates NO biological control is very effective, but newer
reports are more hopeful about spinosad, which is presently not merely the
method of choice for organic gardeners, but also the most effective
inclusive of harsh chemical pesticides.

Here is a 1999 assessment of its effectiveness:
http://fireant.tamu.edu/research/arr/year/99-03/res_dem_9903/html/15_spinosad_cameron_airpark.htm
Studies are currently in progress for fungal control of fire ant colonies,
so more "weapons" may be on the horizon.
And here's a Swuit 101 article on spinosad supplemented with d-limonene
drenches:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/organic/109843

I was a kid when fire ants reached the Pacific Northwest & my great-grampa
used to drench them with gasoline & set fire to their nests. Not a wise
method, but the gasoline drench if not the fire tended to get rid of them.
I remember once this resulted in an old stump catching fire from the
inside, the fire apparently entering the stump via half-rotten roots from
the fire ant colony. That big ol' stump smoldered for weeks. I've never
had a sense fire ants are a huge problem around here, though, our cooler
temperatures rendering them less aggressive, less populace, & a lot easier
to get rid of.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
people maintaining a free civil government." -Thomas Jefferson

paghat wrote:

snip
I was a kid when fire ants reached the Pacific Northwest & my
great-grampa used to drench them with gasoline & set fire to their
nests. Not a wise method, but the gasoline drench if not the fire
tended to get rid of them.
snip

http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/lockley/antmap2.gif is a map of
imported fire ant distribution in 1996.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/maps/fireant.pdf is a map of imported fire
ant distribution in April 2004

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/ispm/f...ackground.html Background
information on the imported fire ant.

From reading the above pages I don't think we have imported fire ants in
the PNW and if you know of some here I suggest you report that to the
USDA.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

In article m760e.22963$oa6.13069@trnddc07, "Travis"
wrote:

paghat wrote:

snip
I was a kid when fire ants reached the Pacific Northwest & my
great-grampa used to drench them with gasoline & set fire to their
nests. Not a wise method, but the gasoline drench if not the fire
tended to get rid of them.
snip

http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/lockley/antmap2.gif is a map of
imported fire ant distribution in 1996.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/maps/fireant.pdf is a map of imported fire
ant distribution in April 2004

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/ispm/f...ackground.html Background
information on the imported fire ant.

From reading the above pages I don't think we have imported fire ants in
the PNW and if you know of some here I suggest you report that to the
USDA.

Yes you're right, what get called fire-ants around here are big half-red
thatching ants which build huge dome-shaped nests (a foot or more high, a
yard or more wide) out of conifer needles & small sticks (which burn quite
nicely); & grampa would tell us kids to stay away from them because they
would reduce our bodies to skeletons in no time (like driver-ants; a
failed attempt to scare us into obedience -- all the kids stirred the
nests anyway). They're aggressive if their nests are tampered with & their
bite is fiery painful, probably the only western washington ant that will
attack & bite; but they're not the imported fire ants as I was momentarily
misremembering while thinking of grampa with his can of gasoline. But
imported fire ants are on their way to Washington State, & the green dots
on this map is where they're seriously likely to reach (all but one of the
green dots are in my part of the state too):
http://cmave.usda.ufl.edu/ifahi/ifar...ashington.html

-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
people maintaining a free civil government." -Thomas Jefferson

paghat wrote:
In article m760e.22963$oa6.13069@trnddc07, "Travis"
wrote:

paghat wrote:

snip
I was a kid when fire ants reached the Pacific Northwest & my
great-grampa used to drench them with gasoline & set fire to their
nests. Not a wise method, but the gasoline drench if not the fire
tended to get rid of them.
snip

http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/lockley/antmap2.gif is a map of
imported fire ant distribution in 1996.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/maps/fireant.pdf is a map of
imported fire ant distribution in April 2004

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/ispm/f...ackground.html
Background information on the imported fire ant.

From reading the above pages I don't think we have imported fire
ants in the PNW and if you know of some here I suggest you report
that to the USDA.

Yes you're right, what get called fire-ants around here are big
half-red thatching ants which build huge dome-shaped nests (a foot
or more high, a yard or more wide) out of conifer needles & small
sticks (which burn quite nicely); & grampa would tell us kids to
stay away from them because they would reduce our bodies to
skeletons in no time (like driver-ants; a failed attempt to scare
us into obedience -- all the kids stirred the nests anyway).
They're aggressive if their nests are tampered with & their bite is
fiery painful, probably the only western washington ant that will
attack & bite; but they're not the imported fire ants as I was
momentarily misremembering while thinking of grampa with his can of
gasoline. But imported fire ants are on their way to Washington
State, & the green dots on this map is where they're seriously
likely to reach (all but one of the green dots are in my part of
the state too):
http://cmave.usda.ufl.edu/ifahi/ifar...ashington.html

-paggers

I don't think "seriously likely" is the same as "possible". Given that
the conditions here are less than ideal may mean that they might be easy
to control or even eradicate.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

"Travis" wrote:

It is there I will admit but it is also buffered (neutralized).

Buffer and neutralize have completely different meanings.

Buffering uses an acidic solution.

Neutralizing eliminates the acidity. For example, an alkaline like KOH
neutralizes an acid creating water and a salt.

The MSDS for Boric Acid is at:

http://www.sqmna.com/industrial/prod..._acid_msds.pdf

"INGESTION
Ingestion of one teaspoon or less by a healthy adult will cause no harm.
If larger amounts are ingested, drink two glasses of water and seek
medical attention."

It is not a carcinogen. The LD 50 is considered 4 gm/kg or almost a
pound for a 200 lb. person so to call it toxic is a gross exaggeration.
The LD 50 for a food called salt is the same.

There is no comparison with HCl (hydrochloric acid). There is a
comparison between salt and boric acid.

I use a mixture of boric acid powder and sugar to kill ants. That is
what most ant baits are made of.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

In article ,
says...
The MSDS for Boric Acid is at:

http://www.sqmna.com/industrial/prod..._acid_msds.pdf

"INGESTION
Ingestion of one teaspoon or less by a healthy adult will cause no harm.
If larger amounts are ingested, drink two glasses of water and seek
medical attention."

It is not a carcinogen. The LD 50 is considered 4 gm/kg or almost a
pound for a 200 lb. person so to call it toxic is a gross exaggeration.
The LD 50 for a food called salt is the same.


The problem with the LD50 on the MSDS supplied by that chemical company
is that it is the LD50 for rabbits, not rats, which is usually the norm
when making comparisons to other products. The LD50 of table salt with
rabbits is probably greater 10000 rather than 3300 for rats. The LD50
for boric acid with rats will be 2660 rather than 4000 with rabbits. The
other figure it doesn't state is the LDlo, the lowest amount known to be
a lethal dose. For human it is 429 mg/kg which would mean that though
there is a 50% chance of death for a 200 lb man eating anywheres from
over a half pound to almost a pound of boric acid (ld50 of 2600-4000
mg/kg, death can happen by him eating 2 and 3/4 tablespoons (not quite
an 1 1/2 ounces). Though it may not be as toxic as many cleansers under
the cabinet, care should be taken. If a toddler swallows a pinch of it
that might be sprinkled under a kitchen sink for roaches and ants, it
will be a trip to the hospital.
--
Lar

to email....get rid of the BUGS

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:01:43 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

In article , wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:52:22 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

I haven't seen anyone recommend nematodes. Not only will they control
ants but other soil insects. Fleas, termites, and etc.

Nematodes are not an effective fire-ant control. Fire ants detect the
nematodes & easily evade them. Occasionally a nest is disrupted by the
application of nematodes because of the great amount of water that must be
applied with the nematodes; nuisance-factors like having to dodge
nematodes or getting deeply drenched with water is not the same thing as
the nematodes actually controlling them.

To quote Dr Dunn of the University of Florida Department of Entomology &
Nematology: "Although beneficial nematodes might be used to get fire ants
out of gardens by disturbing them, the same effect can be obtained at no
extra cost by pouring hot water onto the mounds or by mechanical
disturbance."
http://ipm.ifas.ufl.edu/applying/tactics/biological-control/fire_ants_nematodes.htm

Steve Tveden, author of The Best Control, notes that commercial
insecticides are also ineffective for fire ants, to whit: "aggressive
insecticide (poison) treatment of critical habitat can have a greater
negative impact on a sensitive environment, and volatile, synthetic
insecticide poisons have never proven to really control fire ants anywhere
- there generally are more fire ants after an 'aggressive' poison campaign
than before." For this reason it is not a logical option even for
non-organic gardeners who'd be glad to use extreme toxins if they'd at
least work.

Burning has also been proven to be ineffective & has even caused greater
population explosions.

Tveden notes that regular drenches with boiling water eradicates 60% of
fire ant colonies because any recurring nuisance factor causes survivors
of the scaldings to up & move. Citrus drenches are even better because
d-limonine is somewhat toxic to fire ants -- not very toxic, but it causes
a lingering disruption whereas boiling water is only disruptive for a few
minutes at a time. Dr. Bronner's Liquid Peppermint Soap also kills a few,
distresses the survivors, & induces abandonment of an area.

Daily digging into & stirring up the nest will also eventually get them to
move & become someone else's problem, though digging into the mound is
always something of a risk of getting bitten. One effective trick
(according to Tveden) is to hard-pack the nest by driving over it just
before a hard freeze; it completely destroys their nest for successful
overwintering at a time when they are going dormant & unable to effect
repairs.

Most of the biological controls only cause disease in a small percentage
of the colony, & is in great part just another nuisance factor that causes
ants to leave, as they know when a pathogen is present. Many biological
controls have been tested & the majority found to be close to useless
(sometimes infecting or killing less than 1% of a colony) but spinosad
infects 15% minimally & in some cases an entire colony. Used in
combination with d-limonine drenches gives much better results.

Ants unfortunately have a great ability to learn, &amp while excellent
control of fire ants can be achieved within five weeks of carefully timed
spinosad baiting (ideally in "dog days" of a warm autumn), eventually the
ants figure out it's the bait that's killing them, so effectiveness is not
so dramatic if it is too soon needed again. It is most effective where
colonies are few & distant from one another, probably because small
isolated colonies are slower to learn what's killing them, & can't hold
out long enough to figure out they should stop gathering the bait.

The sponosad field studies are from around 1998-2001, so older literature
on the topic indicates NO biological control is very effective, but newer
reports are more hopeful about spinosad, which is presently not merely the
method of choice for organic gardeners, but also the most effective
inclusive of harsh chemical pesticides.

Here is a 1999 assessment of its effectiveness:
http://fireant.tamu.edu/research/arr/year/99-03/res_dem_9903/html/15_spinosad_cameron_airpark.htm
Studies are currently in progress for fungal control of fire ant colonies,
so more "weapons" may be on the horizon.
And here's a Swuit 101 article on spinosad supplemented with d-limonene
drenches:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/organic/109843

I was a kid when fire ants reached the Pacific Northwest & my great-grampa
used to drench them with gasoline & set fire to their nests. Not a wise
method, but the gasoline drench if not the fire tended to get rid of them.
I remember once this resulted in an old stump catching fire from the
inside, the fire apparently entering the stump via half-rotten roots from
the fire ant colony. That big ol' stump smoldered for weeks. I've never
had a sense fire ants are a huge problem around here, though, our cooler
temperatures rendering them less aggressive, less populace, & a lot easier
to get rid of.

-paghat the ratgirl

They work for me and my neighbors.