"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...



It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when
a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go
with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly
with big business for going overseas in the first place.

Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every
luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game
boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self
control and no brains are to blame for this mess.



And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires
Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. If
the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers
for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed
the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed
over.

Stupid ****. We aren't talking about illegal aliens. We are talking about
damn hard working immigrants doing jobs that fat lazy americans who are used
to living on the dole won't do.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something
about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are
going to be made in the USA?


There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you
willing to pay a higher price to buy them?

Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made
tools.


Yeah, because no-skilled union american workers think they have to be paid
$25 an hour to manufacture these tools.




One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to
find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made
crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued
professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in
oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break
after one use, etc.


That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.

If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.



That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've
seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some
of the "American" crews I've seen.

They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or
working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable
lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers.
Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the
bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace
practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way
back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do
good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal
taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made
tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that
hire illegals.

And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.






Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant
construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they
spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get
them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any
time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than
absolutely necessary?


They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn
this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the
cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can
buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can
sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not
want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they
can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be
repurchased more often.

American consumers are too stupid, lazy, and looking for instant
gratification that they think they are owed by the government. They won't
work hard and save and take care of what they have. They want more more
more disposable shit and they want the government or the corporation or "the
man" to give it to them because they think they "deserve it".

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:05:59 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"USENET READER" wrote in message
link.net...



It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when
a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go
with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly
with big business for going overseas in the first place.

Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every
luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game
boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self
control and no brains are to blame for this mess.

If only the US were a dictatorship, you could stop this waste! Ain't
it a shame you don't run the country?

Tom Disque wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:05:59 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"USENET READER" wrote in message
hlink.net...

It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when
a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go
with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly
with big business for going overseas in the first place.

Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every
luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game
boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self
control and no brains are to blame for this mess.


If only the US were a dictatorship, you could stop this waste! Ain't
it a shame you don't run the country?


No actually if we lived in a real democracy instead of a fascist state
run by corporations, we could elect leaders who would put the interests
of the majority of Americans ahead of that 1/2 of 1% of rich pukes that
control close to 40% of the real wealth.

Oscar_Lives wrote:

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...


It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when
a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go
with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly
with big business for going overseas in the first place.


Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every
luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game
boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self
control and no brains are to blame for this mess.

Who do you think makes the greedy consumers want all that stuff - the
big companies who advertise them and also make them overseas.



And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires
Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. If
the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers
for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed
the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed
over.


Stupid ****. We aren't talking about illegal aliens. We are talking about
damn hard working immigrants doing jobs that fat lazy americans who are used
to living on the dole won't do.

Actually stupiid **** - we are talking about illegal alliens. The damn
hard working immigrants you are referring to are mostly illegals. And
they all drive wages down. If they weren't here, then the bosses would
be forced to offer higher wages to legal workers who wouldn't need to be
on the dole. Nobody on the dole wants to be on the dole - but then
again being on the dole can sometimes pay more than what you make by
working at those slave labor wages that the illegas get paid.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something
about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are
going to be made in the USA?


There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you
willing to pay a higher price to buy them?

Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made
tools.



Yeah, because no-skilled union american workers think they have to be paid
$25 an hour to manufacture these tools.

No - because workers who live in a country that isn't a democracy have
no rights to a decent lliving wage, no right to workplace health and
safety protection and no environmenta protections. Companies locate in
those countries because they can get away with stuff that is illegal
here in the USA. Are you saying that in addition to the lower wages,
you would tolerate increased pollution, and increased risks to your
health and safety on the job? What if, just to keep your job, you had
to accept increased dangers on the workplace just to remain competitive
- and you lost eyes and limbs on the job - it that worth keeping your job?



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to
find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made
crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued
professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in
oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break
after one use, etc.


That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.

If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.

That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've
seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some
of the "American" crews I've seen.

They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or
working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable
lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers.
Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the
bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace
practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way
back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do
good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal
taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made
tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that
hire illegals.


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!





Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant
construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they
spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get
them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any
time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than
absolutely necessary?


They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn
this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the
cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can
buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can
sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not
want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they
can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be
repurchased more often.


American consumers are too stupid, lazy, and looking for instant
gratification that they think they are owed by the government. They won't
work hard and save and take care of what they have. They want more more
more disposable shit and they want the government or the corporation or "the
man" to give it to them because they think they "deserve it".

No actually dumb **** - American workers are smart, the most productive
in the world, and willing to work hard and save for the future. But you
can't save for the future if you don't have a job that pays enough for
you to live on now! Actually - I can't think of anyone who wants to
work hard for shit that will fall apart on them, but with greedy
investors expecting a 40% return on their investment, some greedy
manager will find a way to cut corners, move a factory overseas -
whatever it takes to give the "ownership class" what they want at the
expense of working people.

Why do you dumb ****s endorse the kind of class warfare that makes
investment rewarded more than hard work? Are you wone of those pukes
who inherited all their wealth?

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:
[snip]

And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!
[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.

Tom Disque wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names
because you can't handle it?

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names
because you can't handle it?

I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Tom Disque wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]



And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names
because you can't handle it?


I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged
into that circuit?

I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in
a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old
wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is
plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is
responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the
building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure
it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them
from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how
to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs
to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to
be switched on and off for the show.

There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician
to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in
China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep
a Broadway show from starting on time?

I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't
plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them
checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging
in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and
grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you?

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...
Tom Disque wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5
shovel-leaners for every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names because
you can't handle it?


I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged into
that circuit?

I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a
Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall
outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged
in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible
for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or
theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna
blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a
show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He
knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or
perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and
off for the show.

There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician
to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China
electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a
Broadway show from starting on time?

I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't
plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them
checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in
some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's
O2 generator goes out - would you?


You are a ****ing joke.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:14:32 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:

Tom Disque wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]



And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names
because you can't handle it?


I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged
into that circuit?

I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in
a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old
wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is
plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is
responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the
building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure
it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them
from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how
to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs
to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to
be switched on and off for the show.

There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician
to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in
China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep
a Broadway show from starting on time?

I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't
plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them
checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging
in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and
grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you?

You make some good points that I had not considered.

I've really got no dog in this fight. I think both of you are partly
correct. I know full well that I would not enjoy the benefits that I
have if it were not for the union organizers of yesteryear. I also
know that the demands of some unions became excessive in the 60s and
70s, and that some unions at certain points in time were infested by
the mob.

Mostly, I wanted to point out to the two of you that you were
comparing apples and oranges. The people who started the unions are
not the same people (or even the same quality of people) who run the
unions today.