Diana,

Could it be something in the chemicals when they build the pool next door?
Concrete has some powerful chemicals (lye I think?). Could they be painting
the pool surface?

Gene

just a small side question for Pat:
I thought Daconil (Chlorothalonil) was a contact chemcial, not a systemic.
It is a curative agent, but may not act to prevent infection. I had just
looked through my grower catalogs to answer this very question for a
customer, so it was fresh in my mind. The grower catalogs can be wrong...
I was just wondering if this were the case.

In contrast, the Cleary's 3336 is listed as a systemic that has both
curative and preventative action.

According to one of my charts, between these two chemicals, you catch every
listed fungus your orchids are likely to encounter except a Pythium
infection. Add the Phyton (Preventative, curative contact) and you still
miss Pythiums

At least one Pyhtium species (P. ultimum?) causes what we commonly call
"Black Rot" in orchid plants. Turban, Subdue, and Aliette are listed for
Pythiums. (Of course a lot of fungus and bacterial organisms can be behind
what we call "Black rot" and frequently one organism opens the door to
others and probably several are ultimately involved in any large scale
infection as the tissue starts to die.)

Phyton is a copper based chemical. (Copper sulphate? in some kind of
polymer carrier) It is really helpful for bacterial problems. However,
make sure you know how the other chemical and fertilizers you may be
spraying on your plants will interact with it. Most labels tell you if you
need to take extra precautions with copper the based products in your
arsenal.

For gene's suggestion, you might verify if the pool installation has put
anything caustic in the environment by checking other plants in the area
(besides your orchids) for similar damage patterns.

If you want to rule out mites for some of that tip damage, get a magnifying
glass and look for them. Mites can open wounds that serve as entry points
for fungal and bacterial infection just like all the other beasties that
feed on leaves. Even with a magnifying glass some species of mite instars
and eggs look like tiny semi-opaque dots that are sunken into the pits of
plant tissue; not like insects at all, especially if you have already killed
off the larger easier to spray population. Phals tips and leaf margins are
places where you often find newly planted mite colonies.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Hi Diana,

I do not know what is going on. I, like Rob, Gene, and Ray, wonder if it
is not some culture issue. Hard, dry and very fast moving is not your
normal creeping crud. I do not think it is the Steve infliction, it is
moving too fast. I checked the weather for you for the past month, it
sounds like it has been lovely and not a single night would have cause
this. The sun is at a very low angle now. I would carefully check to
make sure shading is still right. Has anyone been using roundup or grass
weed & feed?

Do you have a bush snail problem? I have seen bacteria/fungus problems
show up very quickly moving into plants via open bush snail wounds.

If these were my plants here is what I would be doing:

First Day,

First, depot one or two and make sure the roots are ok. Since one of the
plants was mounted, I know this is not a problem. But one of the first
things I always do is check roots.

Second, I would flush everything. A real good flushing of two or three
passes.

Third, I would spray with a systemic fungicide cocktail. There are a
couple I use, Spectro (Cleary's 3336 and Daconil) is very good and the
components should be available in consumer sizes. This spraying will be
absorbed into the plant and remain effective for about a month.

Fourth, I would put out something if bush snails might be an issue.

In a couple of days, I would spray down the plants. After the leaves are
dry, I would start a weekly spraying of Phyton 27. The first couple of
times I would use it at the higher recommended level and after that move
down to the lower recommended level. Phyton 27 is also sold in consumer
size.

After the flush, the next time the plants needed water, I would do it with
a weak fertilizer solution. The time after that I would use a trace mix.
Trace mixes can be found at the local garden center as an Iron supplement.
Read the labels, many of the iron supplements are really formulated to
address all trace problems.

Lastly, I would isolate. Put everything with any signs of the problem in
one area. The bad leaves are not going to get better and dieing tissue is
going to continue to die. But over a short period of time we would like
to see problem areas quit growing with no new ones showing up. Plants in
the healthy area should stay healthy. If healthy plants continue to get
sick, we have not addressed the problem and it is time to move to plan B.

Pat

I love exothem. It makes a greenhouse smell for weeks like tires have been
burning.

BTW, I was not casting aspersions on your advice. I was trying to learn if
my grower catalog charts were wrong. And as usual, when I don't know an
answer, I was just spouting facts.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Al, I expect you are right about Daconil not being a systemic. Exotherm
never really acted as one. Spectro is labeled as a systemic but I expect
that is just because of the Cleary's.

When I expect Pythium or Fusarium, I use another cocktail, a modified
Griesbach's blitz; Cleary's, Subdue, Truban and Physan. Subdue is not
available in consumer sizes. I expect I would recommend Banrot (another
cocktail containing Truban) to Diana if plan B was required.

Phyton 27 is a systemic. Go figure. It's label makes it sound like it
does not have any of the copper interaction problems you would expect and
I have never had any problems with it. But I remember the old interaction
problems of Kocide and treat Phyton with some care. That was why I
recommended Diana spray down the plants before using it. Of all
chemicals, I think I have had the best luck using Phyton to slow fast
moving problems.

Pat

Al, I expect you are right about Daconil not being a systemic. Exotherm
never really acted as one. Spectro is labeled as a systemic but I expect
that is just because of the Cleary's.

When I expect Pythium or Fusarium, I use another cocktail, a modified
Griesbach's blitz; Cleary's, Subdue, Truban and Physan. Subdue is not
available in consumer sizes. I expect I would recommend Banrot (another
cocktail containing Truban) to Diana if plan B was required.

Phyton 27 is a systemic. Go figure. It's label makes it sound like it does
not have any of the copper interaction problems you would expect and I have
never had any problems with it. But I remember the old interaction problems
of Kocide and treat Phyton with some care. That was why I recommended Diana
spray down the plants before using it. Of all chemicals, I think I have had
the best luck using Phyton to slow fast moving problems.

Pat

PS. FWIW, it makes sense that Phyton would be a systemic; (copper sulphate
after all) but the grower catalog does list it as a contact so, yes, go
figure.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Al, I expect you are right about Daconil not being a systemic. Exotherm
never really acted as one. Spectro is labeled as a systemic but I expect
that is just because of the Cleary's.

When I expect Pythium or Fusarium, I use another cocktail, a modified
Griesbach's blitz; Cleary's, Subdue, Truban and Physan. Subdue is not
available in consumer sizes. I expect I would recommend Banrot (another
cocktail containing Truban) to Diana if plan B was required.

Phyton 27 is a systemic. Go figure. It's label makes it sound like it
does not have any of the copper interaction problems you would expect and
I have never had any problems with it. But I remember the old interaction
problems of Kocide and treat Phyton with some care. That was why I
recommended Diana spray down the plants before using it. Of all
chemicals, I think I have had the best luck using Phyton to slow fast
moving problems.

Pat

Hi, Pat,

I would carefully check to make sure shading is still right. Has anyone
been using roundup or grass weed & feed?

Shading is good, and the plants have been living in their current locations
for a long time. No chemicals, and other plantings are fine. Even the
gardenias are okay, and they are usually the first harbingers of trouble.

Do you have a bush snail problem?

This area is clear of snails. Wish I could say the same for my Dend benches.
They are far removed from this area.

First, depot one or two and make sure the roots are ok.

Check. Root systems are gang busters. I flushed the plants heavily
yesterday.

Third, I would spray with a systemic fungicide cocktail. There are a
couple I use, Spectro (Cleary's 3336 and Daconil)

That stuff is in limited supply locally. I have ordered Cleary's, but it
will take a few days. Meanwhile, we sprayed with Physan today. It's what's
available, and we did the whole shebang. You mentioned Phyton 27. I can use
that on most, but not on Dends, as they lose leaves because of the copper.

Things are as isolated as I can make them. I am also going to treat again
for mites. Thanks so much for the comprehensive answer. I really appreciate
it.

Diana

Al, I thought it was mites to begin with, because of the pattern of damage.
I cannot see anything, even with a magnifying glass, but we did treat for
mites and will do it again. It could be a combination of factors.

Diana

"al" wrote in message news:rigdh.1997$g_3.1810@trndny02...
just a small side question for Pat:
I thought Daconil (Chlorothalonil) was a contact chemcial, not a systemic.
It is a curative agent, but may not act to prevent infection. I had just
looked through my grower catalogs to answer this very question for a
customer, so it was fresh in my mind. The grower catalogs can be wrong...
I was just wondering if this were the case.

In contrast, the Cleary's 3336 is listed as a systemic that has both
curative and preventative action.

According to one of my charts, between these two chemicals, you catch
every listed fungus your orchids are likely to encounter except a Pythium
infection. Add the Phyton (Preventative, curative contact) and you still
miss Pythiums

At least one Pyhtium species (P. ultimum?) causes what we commonly call
"Black Rot" in orchid plants. Turban, Subdue, and Aliette are listed for
Pythiums. (Of course a lot of fungus and bacterial organisms can be
behind what we call "Black rot" and frequently one organism opens the door
to others and probably several are ultimately involved in any large scale
infection as the tissue starts to die.)

Phyton is a copper based chemical. (Copper sulphate? in some kind of
polymer carrier) It is really helpful for bacterial problems. However,
make sure you know how the other chemical and fertilizers you may be
spraying on your plants will interact with it. Most labels tell you if
you need to take extra precautions with copper the based products in your
arsenal.

For gene's suggestion, you might verify if the pool installation has put
anything caustic in the environment by checking other plants in the area
(besides your orchids) for similar damage patterns.

If you want to rule out mites for some of that tip damage, get a
magnifying glass and look for them. Mites can open wounds that serve as
entry points for fungal and bacterial infection just like all the other
beasties that feed on leaves. Even with a magnifying glass some species
of mite instars and eggs look like tiny semi-opaque dots that are sunken
into the pits of plant tissue; not like insects at all, especially if you
have already killed off the larger easier to spray population. Phals tips
and leaf margins are places where you often find newly planted mite
colonies.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Hi Diana,

I do not know what is going on. I, like Rob, Gene, and Ray, wonder if it
is not some culture issue. Hard, dry and very fast moving is not your
normal creeping crud. I do not think it is the Steve infliction, it is
moving too fast. I checked the weather for you for the past month, it
sounds like it has been lovely and not a single night would have cause
this. The sun is at a very low angle now. I would carefully check to
make sure shading is still right. Has anyone been using roundup or grass
weed & feed?

Do you have a bush snail problem? I have seen bacteria/fungus problems
show up very quickly moving into plants via open bush snail wounds.

If these were my plants here is what I would be doing:

First Day,

First, depot one or two and make sure the roots are ok. Since one of the
plants was mounted, I know this is not a problem. But one of the first
things I always do is check roots.

Second, I would flush everything. A real good flushing of two or three
passes.

Third, I would spray with a systemic fungicide cocktail. There are a
couple I use, Spectro (Cleary's 3336 and Daconil) is very good and the
components should be available in consumer sizes. This spraying will be
absorbed into the plant and remain effective for about a month.

Fourth, I would put out something if bush snails might be an issue.

In a couple of days, I would spray down the plants. After the leaves are
dry, I would start a weekly spraying of Phyton 27. The first couple of
times I would use it at the higher recommended level and after that move
down to the lower recommended level. Phyton 27 is also sold in consumer
size.

After the flush, the next time the plants needed water, I would do it
with a weak fertilizer solution. The time after that I would use a trace
mix. Trace mixes can be found at the local garden center as an Iron
supplement. Read the labels, many of the iron supplements are really
formulated to address all trace problems.

Lastly, I would isolate. Put everything with any signs of the problem in
one area. The bad leaves are not going to get better and dieing tissue
is going to continue to die. But over a short period of time we would
like to see problem areas quit growing with no new ones showing up.
Plants in the healthy area should stay healthy. If healthy plants
continue to get sick, we have not addressed the problem and it is time to
move to plan B.

Pat

Gene,

I would dearly love to blame this on my insufferable neighbors, but I can't.
The concrete was poured months ago. The painting was done a while back, too.

Diana

Just a big thanks to all for your support and suggestions. I'll let you know
how it all turns out. Unless, that is, we lose a bunch of plants, in which
case I will be busy playing in traffic.

Diana

Dear Diana

I couldn't help becoming a bit sad when I saw the pictures of your
plants. It is a nightmare for orchid lovers/collectors.

I have been collecting and also studying orchids for many years here
in Denmark. I worked as a biologist with your goverment and had my own
interests in our native orchids beside my tropical collections.
Enough about my background.

To me it looks like your plants have been exposed to something
chemical and the plants have been weakened. In their weakness the
plants could not defend them selves aginst the bacterias/parasites
that were already there. Try to determine the common signs (eg. the
yellowing of the leaves) and seperate them from the other ones
seperately.

I looks to me as there has been some chemical influence on your
plants.
Phalaenopsis are the orchids with the strongest survival capacities of
all. I've had plants that was drowned and totally dried out for month
without loosing them. The came strong out and bloomed again.

My best advice to you is:
Take you plants out of the old compost/soil and wash them thoroughly
many times and repot in fresh compost/soil.
Do not use any chemicals at all, it might damage them (and the
mychorhiza) even more. The result could be that you kill them
completely.
Your plants need a good rest without too much water after repotting
(and washing). Let them dry out a bit. Their natural survival
processes will take over after a while.

Kindly

Alan

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:39:56 -0500, "Diana Kulaga"
wrote:

I just posted the following to rgo. It is *not* cross posted. I hope someone
can ID this mess. Will post the pictures in succession in this thread.

Well, we have a little problem here. Walked out on the patio on Friday
morning and saw severe damage to a number of Phals. Mind you, seeing them
every day is unavoidable, so I can assure you that these probs were not
evident the day before. Clearly, something had been in the works, but I
hadn't noticed.

The leaves are turning yellow starting at the outer edges. The under sides
of the leaves look moldy and pitted. Some of them have what look like sunken
areas on the top of the leaves, but those are not soft. There is no sign of
snails/slugs, and those things would be unlikely to find them where they
live. There is no big web infestation, so I don't think it's spider mites.
My guess is some kind of mites, however. Saturday we sprayed everything
(*everything*!) with soap and oil with some alcohol thrown in for good
measure - 6 tb/gallon.

Pictures going up in abpo in 1 minute. I'm really worried. Here I teach a
class for newbies, and look what I've got.

Diana

On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:32:32 -0500, "Diana Kulaga"
wrote:

Gene,

I would dearly love to blame this on my insufferable neighbors, but I can't.
The concrete was poured months ago. The painting was done a while back, too.

Diana

Your positive she did not have the lawn service spray? We have seen
the results of a nice grass spray on the drift of a breeze wipe out
most of an orchid collection.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Sue, I just can't blame them. I blame 'em for enough already. This one isn't
their fault.

Diana

"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:32:32 -0500, "Diana Kulaga"
wrote:

Gene,

I would dearly love to blame this on my insufferable neighbors, but I
can't.
The concrete was poured months ago. The painting was done a while back,
too.

Diana

Your positive she did not have the lawn service spray? We have seen
the results of a nice grass spray on the drift of a breeze wipe out
most of an orchid collection.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Thanks for your response, Alan. I appreciate all input!

Diana

"Mushashi" wrote in message
...
Dear Diana

I couldn't help becoming a bit sad when I saw the pictures of your
plants. It is a nightmare for orchid lovers/collectors.

I have been collecting and also studying orchids for many years here
in Denmark. I worked as a biologist with your goverment and had my own
interests in our native orchids beside my tropical collections.
Enough about my background.

To me it looks like your plants have been exposed to something
chemical and the plants have been weakened. In their weakness the
plants could not defend them selves aginst the bacterias/parasites
that were already there. Try to determine the common signs (eg. the
yellowing of the leaves) and seperate them from the other ones
seperately.

I looks to me as there has been some chemical influence on your
plants.
Phalaenopsis are the orchids with the strongest survival capacities of
all. I've had plants that was drowned and totally dried out for month
without loosing them. The came strong out and bloomed again.

My best advice to you is:
Take you plants out of the old compost/soil and wash them thoroughly
many times and repot in fresh compost/soil.
Do not use any chemicals at all, it might damage them (and the
mychorhiza) even more. The result could be that you kill them
completely.
Your plants need a good rest without too much water after repotting
(and washing). Let them dry out a bit. Their natural survival
processes will take over after a while.

Kindly

Alan

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:39:56 -0500, "Diana Kulaga"
wrote:

I just posted the following to rgo. It is *not* cross posted. I hope
someone
can ID this mess. Will post the pictures in succession in this thread.

Well, we have a little problem here. Walked out on the patio on Friday
morning and saw severe damage to a number of Phals. Mind you, seeing them
every day is unavoidable, so I can assure you that these probs were not
evident the day before. Clearly, something had been in the works, but I
hadn't noticed.

The leaves are turning yellow starting at the outer edges. The under sides
of the leaves look moldy and pitted. Some of them have what look like
sunken
areas on the top of the leaves, but those are not soft. There is no sign
of
snails/slugs, and those things would be unlikely to find them where they
live. There is no big web infestation, so I don't think it's spider mites.
My guess is some kind of mites, however. Saturday we sprayed everything
(*everything*!) with soap and oil with some alcohol thrown in for good
measure - 6 tb/gallon.

Pictures going up in abpo in 1 minute. I'm really worried. Here I teach a
class for newbies, and look what I've got.

Diana

i have only now gotten on a machine where i could see pictures--yikes!

-pats diana on the head and offers 90 min IPA (dogfish)-

now bearing in mind i'm likely the least knowledgeable person in this
group: are you anywhere near a chemical plant? storage area? refinery?
natural gas or propane storage or pipeline? i remember reading
somewhere how sensitive orchids are to certain airborne insults; also
something about someone who lived over a drycleaners having plants
regularly drop dead. (i'm 200 yards from a major gas pipeline; 4 42"
mains buried less than three feet deep. i told my housemate if he ever
came home and found all the orchids yellow and shrivelled, to turn right
around and get back in his car and drive east for at least 5 miles.)
i'm wondering if there could have been a release of something that
wasn't big enough to get the local gendarmerie in a tizzy, but that
could have hung around just long enough to snuff the plants? one of our
local generating plants has signs around it: if you hear a siren, pull
your shirt over your mouth and nose and try not to breathe for a couple
hours. but if they only have a mild hiccup, they don't sound the alarms.

just a thought....

--j_a

Not a thing. There's nothing like that anywhere nearby. And no chem spills
on I-95 or anything like that, either. And all the landscape plants are
fine. Thank goodness, not *all* our plants are affected, although we are
treating everything, of course. The Phals are the worst hit, but I need to
get on the stick and repot a bunch of Catts that developed rotted pbulbs.

By nature I'm optimistic. But I'm also a realist. We will lose some plants
due to this mess.

Diana

"unknown" wrote in message
...
i have only now gotten on a machine where i could see pictures--yikes!

-pats diana on the head and offers 90 min IPA (dogfish)-

now bearing in mind i'm likely the least knowledgeable person in this
group: are you anywhere near a chemical plant? storage area? refinery?
natural gas or propane storage or pipeline? i remember reading
somewhere how sensitive orchids are to certain airborne insults; also
something about someone who lived over a drycleaners having plants
regularly drop dead. (i'm 200 yards from a major gas pipeline; 4 42"
mains buried less than three feet deep. i told my housemate if he ever
came home and found all the orchids yellow and shrivelled, to turn right
around and get back in his car and drive east for at least 5 miles.)
i'm wondering if there could have been a release of something that
wasn't big enough to get the local gendarmerie in a tizzy, but that
could have hung around just long enough to snuff the plants? one of our
local generating plants has signs around it: if you hear a siren, pull
your shirt over your mouth and nose and try not to breathe for a couple
hours. but if they only have a mild hiccup, they don't sound the alarms.

just a thought....

--j_a