I now have three plants with keikis.

One is a phal (P. Sogo Smith), and it has two developing at the top of the
inflorescences (which had been cut just above the highest node that hadn't
flowered). Now, when it comes time to remove it, do I do so by cutting
between the keiki and the inflorescence supporting it, or do I cut the
inflorescence just below the keiki, leaving part of the inflorescence
attached to the baby? And after this, what is likely to happen with the
remaining inflorescences if they are left in place (and would you recommend
leaving them in place?)?

The second is a nobile type dendrobium. In this case, I am tempted to leave
the keikis in place, and just let them make the plant larger, assuming that
doing so will do no harm. Part of the reason for this is that the keikis on
this plant are the only sign of new growth on it. But Iam curious: Do
keikis produce keikis? I ask because there is, on the larger keiki, a small
growth that is clearly developing into a new shoot but it does not have any
roots that are clearly associated with it. If keikis do not produce keikis
themselves (at least until mature), the only other explanation I can see is
that this keiki is being born with two shoots. Does that happen often? All
of my other nobile type dends have new growths but no keikis. I know what
to do with these things to produce flowers, but, in the case of the specimen
with keikis, what can I do to stimulate it to produce new pseudobulbs
(without putting the keikis at risk)? This, and a second nobile type dend
need to be repotted soon (and I haven't decided whether to use coir or chc -
they are presently in moss), but I am wary of setting back the new growth on
the one, and the keikis on the other. Both seem to be quite robust, but I
have no idea what shape their roots are in (I only bought them a few months
ago).

The third is an epidendrum, and it is putting out what look to be a number
of keikis as well as what looks like new shoots from the higher nodes. Here
too, I am tempted to leave the keikis in place, or order to have a larger
"specimen". I spoke to a vendor at the RBG orchid show about this, and he
confirmed my suspicion that the lower of these growths are keikis. He also
said that there is no good reason not to leave them in place. It seems to
me that doing so will create a visual impression of a rapidly increasing
number of stems, all, or at least most, of which in due course will have
clusters of flowers.

Cheers,

Ted

"Ted Byers" wrote in message
.. .
I now have three plants with keikis.

One is a phal (P. Sogo Smith), and it has two developing at the top of the
inflorescences (which had been cut just above the highest node that hadn't
flowered). Now, when it comes time to remove it, do I do so by cutting
between the keiki and the inflorescence supporting it, or do I cut the
inflorescence just below the keiki, leaving part of the inflorescence
attached to the baby

Ted,

Depends on the keiki. I've had some that simply snapped off when I tried
them, and others that I needed to leave attached to a piece of the old
spike. I don't think I'd try to cut in between the keiki and the old spike,
for fear of damaging the new, tender growth and roots.

I'm not going to touch the nobile plants, as I only have a few, and though
they are doing fine I don't consider myself any kind of authority on them.
As for the Epi., if it's a radicans it will continue to throw out babies;
it's a habit of theirs. In my experience they grow fine if left in place.

Enjoy!

Diana

When I've had a Phal keiki, I usually wait until there are roots evident and
then cut the stem 1-2" above and below the keiki. I dust the cuts with
sulfur. The stem makes it easier to handle and anchor the keiki in a new
medium.
I've had some dendrobium keikis produce keikis especially lodigesii where
you can find several generations at any one time. Unless you want new
plants, I'd suggest removing the keikis as they are probably (I'm not
positive of this) sapping strength from the parent plant. I believe you will
find new growth starting on the parent plant shortly afterward. That is, if
the plant is healthy. Some plants produce keikis as a kind of
self-preservation thing if the parent plant is under severe stress for some
reason and soon to go under (root loss, fungus, bacteria, etc). If you want
a massive plant, plant several together in a basket. I have a Den nobile in
a 14" basket. I planted 3-4" plants in it and it is now a massive and
spectacular display piece (about 5-6 years). You don't say how big your
keikis are, but I've removed and potted some as small as 2" if they have
decent roots. They sit for a little while and then produce a new shoot which
grows several times the size of the keiki.
As for epidendrums, I think the same holds true as for the nobiles. If you
want a tall and spreading plant, you can leave the keiki on. For a fuller
plant, plant the keiki back in the parent pot or pot several together in a
new plant for a bigger specimen. I don't ever see a good reason for leaving
a keiki on a plant unless you want to propagate more of that plant. There
may , of course, be some exceptions I'm not thinking of off hand, but I
think that's a good general rule.

"Ted Byers" wrote in message
.. .
I now have three plants with keikis.

One is a phal (P. Sogo Smith), and it has two developing at the top of the
inflorescences (which had been cut just above the highest node that hadn't
flowered). Now, when it comes time to remove it, do I do so by cutting
between the keiki and the inflorescence supporting it, or do I cut the
inflorescence just below the keiki, leaving part of the inflorescence
attached to the baby? And after this, what is likely to happen with the
remaining inflorescences if they are left in place (and would you
recommend
leaving them in place?)?

The second is a nobile type dendrobium. In this case, I am tempted to
leave
the keikis in place, and just let them make the plant larger, assuming
that
doing so will do no harm. Part of the reason for this is that the keikis
on
this plant are the only sign of new growth on it. But Iam curious: Do
keikis produce keikis? I ask because there is, on the larger keiki, a
small
growth that is clearly developing into a new shoot but it does not have
any
roots that are clearly associated with it. If keikis do not produce
keikis
themselves (at least until mature), the only other explanation I can see
is
that this keiki is being born with two shoots. Does that happen often?
All
of my other nobile type dends have new growths but no keikis. I know what
to do with these things to produce flowers, but, in the case of the
specimen
with keikis, what can I do to stimulate it to produce new pseudobulbs
(without putting the keikis at risk)? This, and a second nobile type dend
need to be repotted soon (and I haven't decided whether to use coir or
chc -
they are presently in moss), but I am wary of setting back the new growth
on
the one, and the keikis on the other. Both seem to be quite robust, but I
have no idea what shape their roots are in (I only bought them a few
months
ago).

The third is an epidendrum, and it is putting out what look to be a number
of keikis as well as what looks like new shoots from the higher nodes.
Here
too, I am tempted to leave the keikis in place, or order to have a larger
"specimen". I spoke to a vendor at the RBG orchid show about this, and he
confirmed my suspicion that the lower of these growths are keikis. He
also
said that there is no good reason not to leave them in place. It seems to
me that doing so will create a visual impression of a rapidly increasing
number of stems, all, or at least most, of which in due course will have
clusters of flowers.

Cheers,

Ted

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
Depends on the keiki. I've had some that simply snapped off when I tried
them, and others that I needed to leave attached to a piece of the old
spike. I don't think I'd try to cut in between the keiki and the old
spike,
for fear of damaging the new, tender growth and roots.

I'm not going to touch the nobile plants, as I only have a few, and though
they are doing fine I don't consider myself any kind of authority on them.
As for the Epi., if it's a radicans it will continue to throw out babies;
it's a habit of theirs. In my experience they grow fine if left in place.

Thanks Diana.

Then, when the time comes, I'll cut the inflorescences just below where the
keikis are, on the phals. I have been told they could be left in place, and
could make an impressive display when blooming with the parent, but in this
case, the inflorescences had been staked, to grow upward, so the keikis are
a good 60 cm above the table. I don't want to risk damaging the rest of
each inflorescence by bending them so that the young plants can have their
feet in coir or chc. They haven't yet begun to put out roots (one is only
about 5 mm in size, and is just barely visible).

My nobile type dends are yamamoto hybrids, and my epidendrums have their
origins with Cal Orchid. I have no idea what a radicans is, but then a week
ago I didn't know that epidendrums are in the cattleya alliance: I have only
the two. Others have confirmed that there is no pressing reason to remove
the keikis from any of these plants unless I simply want to do so. So,
then, unless someone points out significnat dangers in leaving them, I'll
leave the keikis on the dendrobium and epidendrum, and I'll remove them from
the phal (I am curious to see what the rest of the inflorescence will do in
response to the removal of the keikis).

Thanks again,

Ted

Thanks for this.

"V_coerulea" wrote in message
...
When I've had a Phal keiki, I usually wait until there are roots evident
and
then cut the stem 1-2" above and below the keiki. I dust the cuts with
sulfur. The stem makes it easier to handle and anchor the keiki in a new
medium.

This is what I'm planning to do with the phal when the keikis are mature
enough.

I've had some dendrobium keikis produce keikis especially lodigesii where
you can find several generations at any one time. Unless you want new
plants, I'd suggest removing the keikis as they are probably (I'm not
positive of this) sapping strength from the parent plant. I believe you
will
find new growth starting on the parent plant shortly afterward. That is,
if
the plant is healthy. Some plants produce keikis as a kind of
self-preservation thing if the parent plant is under severe stress for
some
reason and soon to go under (root loss, fungus, bacteria, etc). If you
want
a massive plant, plant several together in a basket. I have a Den nobile
in
a 14" basket. I planted 3-4" plants in it and it is now a massive and
spectacular display piece (about 5-6 years). You don't say how big your
keikis are, but I've removed and potted some as small as 2" if they have
decent roots. They sit for a little while and then produce a new shoot
which
grows several times the size of the keiki.

The keikis on the dendrobium are a good 15 cm from tip of the shoot to the
tip of the longest root: both are bigger than the pseudobulb they sit on.
They could be safely removed. I guess I will leave the decision as to what
to do with them until I repot them and see exactly what kind of shape the
roots are in. I would guess, though, that they are contributing more to the
parent than they are taking, since they have substantial leaf area. The
keikis are likely producing more biomass than the parent (which doesn't have
any leaves of its own - just the green pseudobulbs).

As for epidendrums, I think the same holds true as for the nobiles. If you
want a tall and spreading plant, you can leave the keiki on. For a fuller
plant, plant the keiki back in the parent pot or pot several together in a
new plant for a bigger specimen. I don't ever see a good reason for
leaving
a keiki on a plant unless you want to propagate more of that plant. There
may , of course, be some exceptions I'm not thinking of off hand, but I
think that's a good general rule.


This plant I know is strong, with great roots, since I repotted it a couple
weeks ago. If I leave them in place, and let them grow (the highest is only
about 5 cm from the potting material), I will have at least half a dozen new
shoots in addition to the original two.

And I do want to propagate the plants whenever a keiki is produced, since
they provide a replacement, provided I can keep it alive, for plants should
I screw up and kill something out of my too abundant ignorance. They
provide a priceless supplement to bargains I find to replace sadly deceased
plants.

I lost two catts and a phal over the past couple weeks. They were just too
far gone, suffering from the extreme dryness this winter. Despite my best
efforts, they didn't have enough left to recover. But then, at the RBG show
in Burlington a little over a week ago, I found two catts and a dend for
less than I paid for the one catt. Just as pleasing is a phal I bought at
the SOOS show Sunday. I got it for a mere C$25, even though it is in a 15
cm pot! This is a P. Brother Sandra 'LC', and while it has only four
leaves, it has four inflorescences (one of which has two flowers open), the
shortest being as long as the biggest leaf and the largest twice that: and
there's the remains of a fifth which had a keiki so it was cut so that there
are only two nodes left on it; not to mention a new root 2 cm long. In fact,
the second shortest inflorescence also shows signs of having been cut, and
has produced a growing inflorescence from the node at its end. But they're
growing largely horizontally, and are all actively growing. I would like
them to be growing straight up for the time being, but I am afraid of
damaging them. A further fly in the ointment is that the largest has two
flowers already fully open, and their orientation will be messed up if I
bend the inflorescence so it grows upward. It has both P. stuartiana and P.
equestris (one parent is P. Cassandra, which is equestris x stuartiana - but
I'm not sure what is in the other parent), so I am expecting relatively
large, branching, floriferous panicles: it is, apparently, a well known
multifloral. Maybe I am just unnecessarily nervous, having started this only
about eight months ago. I got such a good price because it was the end of
the show and it was one of only a handful of plants he had left and he
didn't want to be taking any home. And now these keikis more than replace
the plants that died.

Thanks again,

Ted

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:47:37 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:

I now have three plants with keikis.

One is a phal (P. Sogo Smith), and it has two developing at the top of the
inflorescences (which had been cut just above the highest node that hadn't
flowered). Now, when it comes time to remove it, do I do so by cutting
between the keiki and the inflorescence supporting it, or do I cut the
inflorescence just below the keiki, leaving part of the inflorescence
attached to the baby?

When faced with these types of decisions, I usually attempt to
visualize why the plants that survived carried the genetic trait. In
this case, I would presume wind or a passing animal might dislodge
the keiki from its mother. That leads me to give the keikei a little
twist when its roots exceed 2" and it has enough biomass to sustaine
it in becoming established. I don't even bother dusting the "wonud"
with fungicide when potting . Just keep it eavenly moist in medium
light for a few months, and it will bloom quickly, for it is mature
tissue unlike a similar sized seediling.

And after this, what is likely to happen with the
remaining inflorescences if they are left in place (and would you recommend
leaving them in place?)?

That decision would depend on wether you desired to produce additional
kakeis or root/shoot growth.

[Snip. I don't do dendrobiums, sorry.]

The third is an epidendrum, and it is putting out what look to be a number
of keikis as well as what looks like new shoots from the higher nodes.

I presume you are referring to reed-stem epidendrums. Species plants
usuallly produce kakeis on all the buds of an inflorescesence that has
finished blooming, and new canes will form on the basel buds of the
preceeding years canes. Hybrids have been created, that are shorter
and tend to rearly produce kakeis. This can produce a tidyier
speciman.

Here too, I am tempted to leave the keikis in place, or order to have a larger
"specimen".

I find the tangled mass of kakeis visually undesireable, so I pot them
as soon as they are large enough, and permit the plant to concentrate
its energy in producing more robust new canes.

I spoke to a vendor at the RBG orchid show about this, and he
confirmed my suspicion that the lower of these growths are keikis.

The lower shoots will produce the new flowering canes.

He also said that there is no good reason not to leave them in place. It seems to
me that doing so will create a visual impression of a rapidly increasing
number of stems, all, or at least most, of which in due course will have
clusters of flowers.

That's the way reed-stem Epis seem to work. It's not only a "visual
impression" it really is a larger plant.