Greeting to all ,
I have purchased some Paph sanderianum seedlings, and I have never bought
Paphs in this form before, my main question is how to transplant them from
the flask , with out damaging them, or destroying them intirely .
I have always been a good Paph grower , and all of mine are doing great
I have close to 250 paphs now, and I would like to add these lil beauties to
my collection .
I would appreciate any information that anyone could pass along to me about
deflasking and the potting of Paphs, as these sanderianum seedlings did not
come very cheap at all , and the thought of losing them would be very
dissapointing.
Thank you , for any info avalible
Good growing to all !!!
yours .....
Todd Wharton

We do not grow paphs from the bottle, so I hope someone who does can weigh
in on your question. But for most catt-tribe plants and dens, we have found
the "crash-and-bang" method to be the best:

Prep your community pots with your desired seedling mix. Use a hammer to
break the bottle [taking precautions to avoid injury from flying glass].
Depending on the size of the flask & # of plants in it, slide all or half
into a compot, agar and all, trying not to separate or disturb the "glob"
of seedlings [other than if necessary to divide the mass in half to fit your
compot]. Fill in around the sides with more seedling mix and use tweezers
to pick out any glass fragments if necessary.

We do not treat with any pesticides or fungicides at this point because it
doesn't seem to us that the topicals would do any good and we fear the
systemics would be too much for such young plants. Catt & den compots go
straight out onto the bench, getting watered whenever the sprinklers are
next turned on. For paphs, I suspect you might want to water them right
after potting.

Using this method does make it harder to transplant from compot to 2" when
the plants are ready, but for us this inconvenience is thoroughly outweighed
by the greater survival rate within the compots.

Good growing,

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Sekanek" wrote in message
om...
Greeting to all ,
I have purchased some Paph sanderianum seedlings, and I have never bought
Paphs in this form before, my main question is how to transplant them
from
the flask , with out damaging them, or destroying them intirely .
I have always been a good Paph grower , and all of mine are doing great
I have close to 250 paphs now, and I would like to add these lil beauties
to
my collection .
I would appreciate any information that anyone could pass along to me
about
deflasking and the potting of Paphs, as these sanderianum seedlings did
not
come very cheap at all , and the thought of losing them would be very
dissapointing.
Thank you , for any info avalible
Good growing to all !!!
yours .....
Todd Wharton

Well, all I deflask is paphs and phrags, so maybe I can help. The 'agar
and all' method I might have to take credit for. I learned that from
Tom Kalina, mentioned it on this group and to Bob Wellenstein (in
person), and it has been all over the place since. It could have arisen
independently, but I still feel guilty. It is a popular technique, and
for good reason (it works, and it is dead simple). Interestingly, I
was just speaking to Tom K and Norito Hasegawa last weekend, and they
both disavowed the method as a really bad idea. So the person I credit
with the idea isn't even doing it anymore, but everybody else is, so...
It still works for me.

Avoid injury from flying glass by placing the flask in a paper bag (or a
doubled paper bag), and (optionally) wrapping that in an old towel. A
sharp rap will break the flask. Don't try to ring the bell, you just
squish plants. Breaking flasks is very therapeutic, but don't get so
relaxed that you hurt yourself. Be careful of glass shards, they can be
small and they can be painful.

The latest update from Norito and Tom is to rinse off as much agar as
comes off easily, but not to disturb the root mass. Or, you can do it my
way and just leave all the agar on. Plant in a seedling mix in 4" pot
(you might want to put bottom 1/3 of the mix as styrofoam peanuts, a
full pot is a lot of mix for little roots). If you do pot out with all
the agar in place, try to put a litle bit of mix on top of the plants
and work it in, otherwise when the agar dissolves the roots have nothing
around them. I also tuck a little bit of sphagnum moss in where I can,
loosely.

I put all that into a ziplock bag (the 'lock' provides valuable
rigidity). Blow it up, seal it 90%, and leave it be. Don't water for
two weeks. If you have used damp (not soaking wet) potting mix, you
will be fine. Same as Kenni, I don't believe in fungicides. Plants are
sterile in the flask, why treat them as if they are diseased? If you
see a problem (mold, etc), then treat them accordingly. I've not seen a
problem in a long time. After two weeks or so, open up the top of the
bag completely, and cut off a corner (or two) from the bottom to allow
for water to drain out. Commence watering (infrequently, it is still a
pretty tight environment). After several months you can take them out
of the plastic bag.

My sanderianum seedlings are doing ok. But somebody else deflasked them
for me, and we didn't follow the above rules. So I think I've lost a
few. I think if you have a whole flask and do it right, you will have
very good success. Keep them in a warm spot (sanderianums like warm).
Not too much light. They should be fine. For that kind of investment,
they better be!!

Rob

We do not grow paphs from the bottle, so I hope someone who does can weigh
in on your question. But for most catt-tribe plants and dens, we have found
the "crash-and-bang" method to be the best:

Prep your community pots with your desired seedling mix. Use a hammer to
break the bottle [taking precautions to avoid injury from flying glass].
Depending on the size of the flask & # of plants in it, slide all or half
into a compot, agar and all, trying not to separate or disturb the "glob"
of seedlings [other than if necessary to divide the mass in half to fit your
compot]. Fill in around the sides with more seedling mix and use tweezers
to pick out any glass fragments if necessary.

We do not treat with any pesticides or fungicides at this point because it
doesn't seem to us that the topicals would do any good and we fear the
systemics would be too much for such young plants. Catt & den compots go
straight out onto the bench, getting watered whenever the sprinklers are
next turned on. For paphs, I suspect you might want to water them right
after potting.

Using this method does make it harder to transplant from compot to 2" when
the plants are ready, but for us this inconvenience is thoroughly outweighed
by the greater survival rate within the compots.

Good growing,

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Sekanek" wrote in message
. com...


Greeting to all ,
I have purchased some Paph sanderianum seedlings, and I have never bought
Paphs in this form before, my main question is how to transplant them


from


the flask , with out damaging them, or destroying them intirely .
I have always been a good Paph grower , and all of mine are doing great
I have close to 250 paphs now, and I would like to add these lil beauties


to


my collection .
I would appreciate any information that anyone could pass along to me


about


deflasking and the potting of Paphs, as these sanderianum seedlings did


not


come very cheap at all , and the thought of losing them would be very
dissapointing.
Thank you , for any info avalible
Good growing to all !!!
yours .....
Todd Wharton





--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Just read an idea couple of days ago somewhere.
The suggestion was to gently place a metal rod (as thick as will fit
through the neck and carefully guided past the plants) into the flask until
it touches the centre base opposite the neck, wrap flask in newspaper or
towel, then tap the other end of rod with hammer. This should knock the base
out. Sounds alright in principle and would seem the be a lot less risk to
you and the plants. I will try that way on my first flask purchase.

Wing


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Well, all I deflask is paphs and phrags, so maybe I can help. The 'agar
and all' method I might have to take credit for. I learned that from
Tom Kalina, mentioned it on this group and to Bob Wellenstein (in
person), and it has been all over the place since. It could have arisen
independently, but I still feel guilty. It is a popular technique, and
for good reason (it works, and it is dead simple). Interestingly, I
was just speaking to Tom K and Norito Hasegawa last weekend, and they
both disavowed the method as a really bad idea. So the person I credit
with the idea isn't even doing it anymore, but everybody else is, so...
It still works for me.

Avoid injury from flying glass by placing the flask in a paper bag (or a
doubled paper bag), and (optionally) wrapping that in an old towel. A
sharp rap will break the flask. Don't try to ring the bell, you just
squish plants. Breaking flasks is very therapeutic, but don't get so
relaxed that you hurt yourself. Be careful of glass shards, they can be
small and they can be painful.

The latest update from Norito and Tom is to rinse off as much agar as
comes off easily, but not to disturb the root mass. Or, you can do it my
way and just leave all the agar on. Plant in a seedling mix in 4" pot
(you might want to put bottom 1/3 of the mix as styrofoam peanuts, a
full pot is a lot of mix for little roots). If you do pot out with all
the agar in place, try to put a litle bit of mix on top of the plants
and work it in, otherwise when the agar dissolves the roots have nothing
around them. I also tuck a little bit of sphagnum moss in where I can,
loosely.

I put all that into a ziplock bag (the 'lock' provides valuable
rigidity). Blow it up, seal it 90%, and leave it be. Don't water for
two weeks. If you have used damp (not soaking wet) potting mix, you
will be fine. Same as Kenni, I don't believe in fungicides. Plants are
sterile in the flask, why treat them as if they are diseased? If you
see a problem (mold, etc), then treat them accordingly. I've not seen a
problem in a long time. After two weeks or so, open up the top of the
bag completely, and cut off a corner (or two) from the bottom to allow
for water to drain out. Commence watering (infrequently, it is still a
pretty tight environment). After several months you can take them out
of the plastic bag.

My sanderianum seedlings are doing ok. But somebody else deflasked them
for me, and we didn't follow the above rules. So I think I've lost a
few. I think if you have a whole flask and do it right, you will have
very good success. Keep them in a warm spot (sanderianums like warm).
Not too much light. They should be fine. For that kind of investment,
they better be!!

Rob

We do not grow paphs from the bottle, so I hope someone who does can
weigh
in on your question. But for most catt-tribe plants and dens, we have
found
the "crash-and-bang" method to be the best:

Prep your community pots with your desired seedling mix. Use a hammer to
break the bottle [taking precautions to avoid injury from flying glass].
Depending on the size of the flask & # of plants in it, slide all or half
into a compot, agar and all, trying not to separate or disturb the
"glob"
of seedlings [other than if necessary to divide the mass in half to fit
your
compot]. Fill in around the sides with more seedling mix and use
tweezers
to pick out any glass fragments if necessary.

We do not treat with any pesticides or fungicides at this point because
it
doesn't seem to us that the topicals would do any good and we fear the
systemics would be too much for such young plants. Catt & den compots go
straight out onto the bench, getting watered whenever the sprinklers are
next turned on. For paphs, I suspect you might want to water them right
after potting.

Using this method does make it harder to transplant from compot to 2"
when
the plants are ready, but for us this inconvenience is thoroughly
outweighed
by the greater survival rate within the compots.

Good growing,

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Sekanek" wrote in message
. com...


Greeting to all ,
I have purchased some Paph sanderianum seedlings, and I have never
bought
Paphs in this form before, my main question is how to transplant them


from


the flask , with out damaging them, or destroying them intirely .
I have always been a good Paph grower , and all of mine are doing great
I have close to 250 paphs now, and I would like to add these lil
beauties


to


my collection .
I would appreciate any information that anyone could pass along to me


about


deflasking and the potting of Paphs, as these sanderianum seedlings did


not


come very cheap at all , and the thought of losing them would be very
dissapointing.
Thank you , for any info avalible
Good growing to all !!!
yours .....
Todd Wharton





--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Wing wrote:

Just read an idea couple of days ago somewhere.
The suggestion was to gently place a metal rod (as thick as will fit
through the neck and carefully guided past the plants) into the flask until
it touches the centre base opposite the neck, wrap flask in newspaper or
towel, then tap the other end of rod with hammer. This should knock the base
out. Sounds alright in principle and would seem the be a lot less risk to
you and the plants. I will try that way on my first flask purchase.



In the magic of jargon, that rod is called a 'drift' (why, I don't
know). It doesn't even need to be as thick as the neck of the flask,
just a solid piece that isn't pointed at the end. A 1/2" diameter rod
will work, or a piece of 're-bar'. Too big and you will smush plants
in the middle of the flask. I'd still use the paper bag (you have
dozens of them lying around anyway, right?), mainly to catch glass. You
will probably still get some shards of glass, it is rare that the bottom
of the flask comes off in one piece.
Somehow whacking the flask with a hammer is more soothing... Perhaps
that is just testosterone talking.

Rob


--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

"Wing" wrote in message ...

Just read an idea couple of days ago somewhere.
The suggestion was to gently place a metal rod (as thick as will fit
through the neck and carefully guided past the plants) into the flask until
it touches the centre base opposite the neck, wrap flask in newspaper or
towel, then tap the other end of rod with hammer. This should knock the base
out.

A lot of the time it doesn't just cleanly break out the bottom, but
even if it breaks unevenly, it'll be a lot cleaner than using a
hammer, and you're much less likely hurt yourself or the plants on
lots of little tiny shards of glass. Personally, I use a long (~12")
cheap screwdriver.

Michael

We break the other end.

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Wing" wrote in message
...
Just read an idea couple of days ago somewhere.
The suggestion was to gently place a metal rod (as thick as will fit
through the neck and carefully guided past the plants) into the flask
until
it touches the centre base opposite the neck, wrap flask in newspaper or
towel, then tap the other end of rod with hammer. This should knock the
base
out. Sounds alright in principle and would seem the be a lot less risk to
you and the plants. I will try that way on my first flask purchase.

Wing


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Well, all I deflask is paphs and phrags, so maybe I can help. The 'agar
and all' method I might have to take credit for. I learned that from
Tom Kalina, mentioned it on this group and to Bob Wellenstein (in
person), and it has been all over the place since. It could have arisen
independently, but I still feel guilty. It is a popular technique, and
for good reason (it works, and it is dead simple). Interestingly, I
was just speaking to Tom K and Norito Hasegawa last weekend, and they
both disavowed the method as a really bad idea. So the person I credit
with the idea isn't even doing it anymore, but everybody else is, so...
It still works for me.

Avoid injury from flying glass by placing the flask in a paper bag (or a
doubled paper bag), and (optionally) wrapping that in an old towel. A
sharp rap will break the flask. Don't try to ring the bell, you just
squish plants. Breaking flasks is very therapeutic, but don't get so
relaxed that you hurt yourself. Be careful of glass shards, they can be
small and they can be painful.

The latest update from Norito and Tom is to rinse off as much agar as
comes off easily, but not to disturb the root mass. Or, you can do it my
way and just leave all the agar on. Plant in a seedling mix in 4" pot
(you might want to put bottom 1/3 of the mix as styrofoam peanuts, a
full pot is a lot of mix for little roots). If you do pot out with all
the agar in place, try to put a litle bit of mix on top of the plants
and work it in, otherwise when the agar dissolves the roots have nothing
around them. I also tuck a little bit of sphagnum moss in where I can,
loosely.

I put all that into a ziplock bag (the 'lock' provides valuable
rigidity). Blow it up, seal it 90%, and leave it be. Don't water for
two weeks. If you have used damp (not soaking wet) potting mix, you
will be fine. Same as Kenni, I don't believe in fungicides. Plants are
sterile in the flask, why treat them as if they are diseased? If you
see a problem (mold, etc), then treat them accordingly. I've not seen a
problem in a long time. After two weeks or so, open up the top of the
bag completely, and cut off a corner (or two) from the bottom to allow
for water to drain out. Commence watering (infrequently, it is still a
pretty tight environment). After several months you can take them out
of the plastic bag.

My sanderianum seedlings are doing ok. But somebody else deflasked them
for me, and we didn't follow the above rules. So I think I've lost a
few. I think if you have a whole flask and do it right, you will have
very good success. Keep them in a warm spot (sanderianums like warm).
Not too much light. They should be fine. For that kind of investment,
they better be!!

Rob

We do not grow paphs from the bottle, so I hope someone who does can
weigh
in on your question. But for most catt-tribe plants and dens, we have
found
the "crash-and-bang" method to be the best:

Prep your community pots with your desired seedling mix. Use a hammer
to
break the bottle [taking precautions to avoid injury from flying
glass].
Depending on the size of the flask & # of plants in it, slide all or
half
into a compot, agar and all, trying not to separate or disturb the
"glob"
of seedlings [other than if necessary to divide the mass in half to fit
your
compot]. Fill in around the sides with more seedling mix and use
tweezers
to pick out any glass fragments if necessary.

We do not treat with any pesticides or fungicides at this point because
it
doesn't seem to us that the topicals would do any good and we fear the
systemics would be too much for such young plants. Catt & den compots
go
straight out onto the bench, getting watered whenever the sprinklers
are
next turned on. For paphs, I suspect you might want to water them
right
after potting.

Using this method does make it harder to transplant from compot to 2"
when
the plants are ready, but for us this inconvenience is thoroughly
outweighed
by the greater survival rate within the compots.

Good growing,

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Sekanek" wrote in message
. com...


Greeting to all ,
I have purchased some Paph sanderianum seedlings, and I have never
bought
Paphs in this form before, my main question is how to transplant them


from


the flask , with out damaging them, or destroying them intirely .
I have always been a good Paph grower , and all of mine are doing
great
I have close to 250 paphs now, and I would like to add these lil
beauties


to


my collection .
I would appreciate any information that anyone could pass along to me


about


deflasking and the potting of Paphs, as these sanderianum seedlings
did


not


come very cheap at all , and the thought of losing them would be very
dissapointing.
Thank you , for any info avalible
Good growing to all !!!
yours .....
Todd Wharton





--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

On the "agar and all method" -- Rob may've been doing it longer, but he's
neither of the 2 sources I relied on when I decided to try it. And it
definitely does work for what I grow.

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Well, all I deflask is paphs and phrags, so maybe I can help. The 'agar
and all' method I might have to take credit for. I learned that from
Tom Kalina, mentioned it on this group and to Bob Wellenstein (in
person), and it has been all over the place since. It could have arisen
independently, but I still feel guilty. It is a popular technique, and
for good reason (it works, and it is dead simple). Interestingly, I
was just speaking to Tom K and Norito Hasegawa last weekend, and they
both disavowed the method as a really bad idea. So the person I credit
with the idea isn't even doing it anymore, but everybody else is, so...
It still works for me.

Avoid injury from flying glass by placing the flask in a paper bag (or a
doubled paper bag), and (optionally) wrapping that in an old towel. A
sharp rap will break the flask. Don't try to ring the bell, you just
squish plants. Breaking flasks is very therapeutic, but don't get so
relaxed that you hurt yourself. Be careful of glass shards, they can be
small and they can be painful.

The latest update from Norito and Tom is to rinse off as much agar as
comes off easily, but not to disturb the root mass. Or, you can do it my
way and just leave all the agar on. Plant in a seedling mix in 4" pot
(you might want to put bottom 1/3 of the mix as styrofoam peanuts, a
full pot is a lot of mix for little roots). If you do pot out with all
the agar in place, try to put a litle bit of mix on top of the plants
and work it in, otherwise when the agar dissolves the roots have nothing
around them. I also tuck a little bit of sphagnum moss in where I can,
loosely.

I put all that into a ziplock bag (the 'lock' provides valuable
rigidity). Blow it up, seal it 90%, and leave it be. Don't water for
two weeks. If you have used damp (not soaking wet) potting mix, you
will be fine. Same as Kenni, I don't believe in fungicides. Plants are
sterile in the flask, why treat them as if they are diseased? If you
see a problem (mold, etc), then treat them accordingly. I've not seen a
problem in a long time. After two weeks or so, open up the top of the
bag completely, and cut off a corner (or two) from the bottom to allow
for water to drain out. Commence watering (infrequently, it is still a
pretty tight environment). After several months you can take them out
of the plastic bag.

My sanderianum seedlings are doing ok. But somebody else deflasked them
for me, and we didn't follow the above rules. So I think I've lost a
few. I think if you have a whole flask and do it right, you will have
very good success. Keep them in a warm spot (sanderianums like warm).
Not too much light. They should be fine. For that kind of investment,
they better be!!

Rob

We do not grow paphs from the bottle, so I hope someone who does can
weigh
in on your question. But for most catt-tribe plants and dens, we have
found
the "crash-and-bang" method to be the best:

Prep your community pots with your desired seedling mix. Use a hammer to
break the bottle [taking precautions to avoid injury from flying glass].
Depending on the size of the flask & # of plants in it, slide all or half
into a compot, agar and all, trying not to separate or disturb the
"glob"
of seedlings [other than if necessary to divide the mass in half to fit
your
compot]. Fill in around the sides with more seedling mix and use
tweezers
to pick out any glass fragments if necessary.

We do not treat with any pesticides or fungicides at this point because
it
doesn't seem to us that the topicals would do any good and we fear the
systemics would be too much for such young plants. Catt & den compots go
straight out onto the bench, getting watered whenever the sprinklers are
next turned on. For paphs, I suspect you might want to water them right
after potting.

Using this method does make it harder to transplant from compot to 2"
when
the plants are ready, but for us this inconvenience is thoroughly
outweighed
by the greater survival rate within the compots.

Good growing,

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Sekanek" wrote in message
. com...


Greeting to all ,
I have purchased some Paph sanderianum seedlings, and I have never
bought
Paphs in this form before, my main question is how to transplant them


from


the flask , with out damaging them, or destroying them intirely .
I have always been a good Paph grower , and all of mine are doing great
I have close to 250 paphs now, and I would like to add these lil
beauties


to


my collection .
I would appreciate any information that anyone could pass along to me


about


deflasking and the potting of Paphs, as these sanderianum seedlings did


not


come very cheap at all , and the thought of losing them would be very
dissapointing.
Thank you , for any info avalible
Good growing to all !!!
yours .....
Todd Wharton





--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Kenni Judd wrote:

On the "agar and all method" -- Rob may've been doing it longer, but he's
neither of the 2 sources I relied on when I decided to try it. And it
definitely does work for what I grow.



Didn't mean to imply that I invented it, or that I am even the one
to popularize it. It wasn't a grab for credit (I have plenty, see rule
3). I _did_ want to imply that the person I learned it from has since
decided it is a bad idea, just because that is interesting information.
But, the reason I brought up who I learned it from was because I was
struck by a curious question. How do ideas (any ideas) circulate?
I'm pretty sure I was the first to bring this deflasking thing up on
RGO, because we had a bit of discussion about it back in the stone age
(before AOL got onto usenet?, ah, those were the days). In science
there is a concept of 'chain of authorship' (for lack of a better
phrase), in that one person publishes an idea, and then, if the system
works, that person is cited. New works then cite the previous work (if
they are good, going back to the original citation, but this doesn't
always happen). So we can build a little tree of how an idea
circulates. On the internet, this gets blown away. Ideas circulate in
a less restrictive fashion.
I'm curious about this particular one (the deflasking method),
mainly because I don't know who came up with it originally. I can trace
its lineage in relation to me back one generation, and (possibly)
forward a few generations. But I have no idea who first thought this
would be a good idea. It was pretty controversial at the time I first
heard about it, but now it is a fairly accepted practice. Accepted
enough that Kenni and I both gave the same answer, and it was pretty
much the only answer given. I'm pretty sure it is the right answer, at
that. Regardless of where we both got the information, we got it from
somewhere, and presumably there is a single point source who came up
with it originally. A second explanation is that this method was
derived independently by several persons. Sometimes that happens too.
So, is this a research project? Just who should be assigned credit
for this 'agar and all' method? It might be interesting to build a tree
of who told what to whom. I guess that is more sociology than science.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit