"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Susan Erickson wrote:
[snip]
Actually since we have had this debate at least once before, maybe
you and I should try to come up with a discussion paper for printing in
the AOS Bulletin (Orchids, whatever.... still can't get used to that).
We could at least address what we see as the big issues, and recommend
some sweeping guidelines. I'm done with my judging homework, so I need
things to do... *grin*

Part of the problem with most software that has been developed, in my
experience as a software developer appraising software products, is that
usually the developer and his management never get a chance to talk directly
to the people who use the software. More usually, the supervisor of the
folk who use it make a wish list to present to the marketting manager for
the software developer who then uses it to construct the terms of the
contract to develop the software. For COTS, it is even worse. The software
house either hires a marketting firm or asks its sales staff to find out
what features a given product ought to have (and usually these folk are
completely clueless with regard to what it akes to provide each feature),
and then, once the wish list has been constructed, passes it to the
developer who then has to figure out what is really meant by each item on
the list and how it can be provided. There is therefore usually a huge
discrepancy between what the software provides and what best meets the needs
of the user. I am OK with this since it means that there is usually a
significant market for what I produce since I design and implement my
products only after I get to know the user and understand how he or she
works. Before top quality software can be produced, the developer must know
well the processes the user currently uses to get the job done, as well as
how the user would prefer to get the job done.

What most "managers" don't realize is that wish lists are NOT the same thing
as functional requirements. For the kind of software you're discussing, it
isn't enough to tell, e.g. me, what the complete set of data items is. To
be effective, you'd have to describe to me IN DETAIL what forms are
required, how they are to be filled out, how the data is to be stored and
displayed and manipulated, what the data entry clerks need/want to do, how
the judges would use the data, &c. &c. &c. There could well be more than a
month's worth of full time work just discussing and analyzing these details
before any code has been written at all, and then several prototypes for the
various kinds of users to play with, and provide feedback, before you can
develop a version suitable for beta testing. And I am guessing that this
would be a relatively simple project. As you can imagine, this process is
expensive, which is why only a few actually do it.

As far as this discussion is concerned, I have not seen an issue raised that
can't in principle be adequately addressed by suitably designed software.
For each, there are several techniques that occured to me that could prove
effective. But a specific suggestion can't be made without significantly
more discussion than is practicable in this forum.

Cheers,

Ted

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:56 -0500, Rob Halgren
wrote:


Actually since we have had this debate at least once before, maybe
you and I should try to come up with a discussion paper for printing in
the AOS Bulletin (Orchids, whatever.... still can't get used to that).
We could at least address what we see as the big issues, and recommend
some sweeping guidelines. I'm done with my judging homework, so I need
things to do... *grin*

Rob

I am just starting mine - so you figure out how to make this
count for at least extra points and I am all for it.

Also class schedules that reflect what shows up on the OS's show
and tell table. Not just what "should be grown here."


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:56 -0500, Rob Halgren
wrote:


Actually since we have had this debate at least once before, maybe
you and I should try to come up with a discussion paper for printing in
the AOS Bulletin (Orchids, whatever.... still can't get used to that).
We could at least address what we see as the big issues, and recommend
some sweeping guidelines. I'm done with my judging homework, so I need
things to do... *grin*

Rob

I am just starting mine - so you figure out how to make this
count for at least extra points and I am all for it.

Also class schedules that reflect what shows up on the OS's show
and tell table. Not just what "should be grown here."


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:56 -0500, Rob Halgren
wrote:


Actually since we have had this debate at least once before, maybe
you and I should try to come up with a discussion paper for printing in
the AOS Bulletin (Orchids, whatever.... still can't get used to that).
We could at least address what we see as the big issues, and recommend
some sweeping guidelines. I'm done with my judging homework, so I need
things to do... *grin*

Rob

I am just starting mine - so you figure out how to make this
count for at least extra points and I am all for it.

Also class schedules that reflect what shows up on the OS's show
and tell table. Not just what "should be grown here."


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Xref: kermit rec.gardens.orchids:52329

A small addition to this discussion: local societies (and, I hope ours this
year) are beginning to insert a rule for growers that requires plants that
are not generally suitable for a particular area to be labeled as such.
E.g. cool growers are generally unsuitable for our part of Florida. If a
newbie takes a fancy to a plant and doesn't understand that the FL heat will
fry it, that individual may well give up on the hobby after the plant keels
over dead. Not fair to the newbie.

To be fair, most growers present plants that are good FL growers, but there
are exceptions.

Diana

AOS requires ownership of the plant for atleast 6 months in order to
grant the exhibitor a culture award. New Zeland requires even more.

"Ray" wrote in message ...
You'd apply that to a CCM????

Who would you be awarding?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Mary Lou" wrote in message
om...
First let me say I have always been against any requirement on how
long the exhibitor has to own the plant for ribbon/trophy
consideration. If the person has the good taste to recognize a
terrific top quality plant why should he/she be penalized for picking
it out a week before the show instead of a year before the show?? For
your Best In Show Specimen plant that can easily be a rule - to own
the plant at least one year. However you must realize that it is going
to be impossible to know if the person is honest and can cause a big
bruuhahaa if there is a fight about it. My recommendation is forget
that rule!!
In the old days our show used to rent convention typewriters to type
the entry tags so that they were very readable from a distance. Now
that the club uses a computer those tags are handwriten and almost
unreadable. I dont think that is an improvement at all.
If your entry team is a good one you just have a page on a clipboard
for the classes, grouped together for the trophies. As: All Cattleyas
together. As the classes are judged the blue ribbon winners are
highlighted on the sheets by the clerks and the judges look over them
to pick the trophies for that Group. If needed the teams can take a
run around and look again at the highest contendors for trophies. This
is all very easy and you don't have to bother with computers at all.
I do speak with some experience having worked on shows for many years
and also clerked and judged. I also wrote a couple of show schedules.
One for a very big show and another for a smaller show. You can have
some genera with more classes and others with fewer depending on what
is usually shown in your area and the time of year of the show. For
instance, we had the Vandas and Ascda. subdivided more here in Miami.
At our shows we do not have ribbons IN the space exhibets, they are
placed in their own individual plant area. But trophies are BEST IN
SHOW so are picked from the entire show.
It wonderful fun to work on shows, good luck with it all.

"The Edgleys" wrote in message
...
Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a
system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well?
I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants in
a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It would
also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.

2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates how
long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have been
grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy
eligibility?

I would be delighted if some of you would send me copies of your rules
and
show schedules (plant categories). Thank you.

David

This is a good Orchid Show Management Program

http://members.rogers.com/swconnecti.../features.html



"K Barrett" wrote in message news:Nu9wb.88346$Dw6.423757@attbi_s02...
"The Edgleys" wrote in message
...
Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well? I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants in a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It would
also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.

The short answer is no. No one has a program that works well for ribbon
judging.

Everyone *THINKS* they have a program that works well for ribbon judging but
in reality none actually work as well as the old fashioned binders.

Why?

Because people will be people.

Exhibitors do not fill out their entry paperwork in advance. You may as well
ask them if they flossed that day. Everyone intends to, but no one except a
few anal retentive ******s actually do.

Small exhibitors gripe that their short list of plant entries get stuck
behind Large exhibitors with a long run of entries. Causing delays. Causing
people to gripe. Causing your show personel to look bad even if they are
bending over backward to help everyone and getting no thanks for it.
Allowing smartalecks to utter 'witty bon mots' at the expense of your
society volunteers. Like: "What jerk thought of that idea?"

Therefore there is a backlog of people waiting for plant entry tags, and
they have to run to get them on the plants before closing.

Additionally just about every program I've seen requires plant entry to be
spelled out - Brassolaeliocattleya instead of Blc. - and lord help you if
you spell it WRONG!! Therefore data gets input in error and/or clerks have
to run and chase down the exhibitor (who is already ****ed off), and/or
clerks figure they'll 'just wait' till the exhibitor comes back to check on
their run, only to find out the clerk didn't know how to spell
brassolaeliocattleya and so they are even further behind than they thought
they were. They really should have flossed too.

So for the 3 seconds it saves one person (juging chair) to 'find out' what
trophies are, you've ****ed off every exhibitor and every volunteer in your
show.

Pretty cool, eh?

Instead, put a sheet of paper (remember paper?) with all the trophies and
rules for selecting trophies on it in the front of your binders and have a
the clerk remember to fill it out as they go along. Note the word CLERK.
Have your clerks trained, and all else falls into place. If your clerks are
dorks, then anything you do will be a joke anyway.



2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates how
long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have been
grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy eligibility?


Yes. Ours state that a person must have owned their plant for 6 months
before being considered for ribbon judging. We do not have cops, but if it
gets out that a person did that they will be thought of as a jerk by the
club in general.

Ours also state that a vendor has to put in an exhibit, but that exhibit
does not have to be entered for judging. Else there would be no 'show' and
it would be nothing but a 'sale'.

Ours also states that diseased or infected plants may not be exhibited and
WILL BE REMOVED from the show. This is especially important in AOS judged
shows since the AOS is no longer enforcing that commonly accepted but
generally unwritten rule. They are trying to figure out what 'pest' and
'disease' means legally, and what consititutes 'infection'. They are also
consulting with Bill Clinton as to the proper definition of 'is'. So, to
prevent the classic finger pointing ('I thought it was against your rules'
'No *I* thought it was against *yours*...' )have it spelled out in your
shows rules if you ever want anyone to ever show their pristine plants in
your show again. It hard enough on the plants to be exhibited in a show.
Lord knows you don't want them coming back with aphids, scale or mealies
too.

Oh yeah, and have fun too!

K Barrett

Which was precisely the point of my protestation!

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Tio Super" wrote in message
om...
AOS requires ownership of the plant for atleast 6 months in order to
grant the exhibitor a culture award. New Zeland requires even more.

"Ray" wrote in message
...
You'd apply that to a CCM????

Who would you be awarding?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Mary Lou" wrote in message
om...
First let me say I have always been against any requirement on how
long the exhibitor has to own the plant for ribbon/trophy
consideration. If the person has the good taste to recognize a
terrific top quality plant why should he/she be penalized for picking
it out a week before the show instead of a year before the show?? For
your Best In Show Specimen plant that can easily be a rule - to own
the plant at least one year. However you must realize that it is going
to be impossible to know if the person is honest and can cause a big
bruuhahaa if there is a fight about it. My recommendation is forget
that rule!!
In the old days our show used to rent convention typewriters to type
the entry tags so that they were very readable from a distance. Now
that the club uses a computer those tags are handwriten and almost
unreadable. I dont think that is an improvement at all.
If your entry team is a good one you just have a page on a clipboard
for the classes, grouped together for the trophies. As: All Cattleyas
together. As the classes are judged the blue ribbon winners are
highlighted on the sheets by the clerks and the judges look over them
to pick the trophies for that Group. If needed the teams can take a
run around and look again at the highest contendors for trophies. This
is all very easy and you don't have to bother with computers at all.
I do speak with some experience having worked on shows for many years
and also clerked and judged. I also wrote a couple of show schedules.
One for a very big show and another for a smaller show. You can have
some genera with more classes and others with fewer depending on what
is usually shown in your area and the time of year of the show. For
instance, we had the Vandas and Ascda. subdivided more here in Miami.
At our shows we do not have ribbons IN the space exhibets, they are
placed in their own individual plant area. But trophies are BEST IN
SHOW so are picked from the entire show.
It wonderful fun to work on shows, good luck with it all.

"The Edgleys" wrote in message
...
Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a
system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries
well?
I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants
in
a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It
would
also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.

2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates
how
long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have
been
grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy
eligibility?

I would be delighted if some of you would send me copies of your
rules
and
show schedules (plant categories). Thank you.

David