Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well? I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants in a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It would also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.

2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates how long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have been grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy eligibility?

I would be delighted if some of you would send me copies of your rules and
show schedules (plant categories). Thank you.

David

"The Edgleys" wrote in message
...
Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well? I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants in a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It would
also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.

The short answer is no. No one has a program that works well for ribbon
judging.

Everyone *THINKS* they have a program that works well for ribbon judging but
in reality none actually work as well as the old fashioned binders.

Why?

Because people will be people.

Exhibitors do not fill out their entry paperwork in advance. You may as well
ask them if they flossed that day. Everyone intends to, but no one except a
few anal retentive ******s actually do.

Small exhibitors gripe that their short list of plant entries get stuck
behind Large exhibitors with a long run of entries. Causing delays. Causing
people to gripe. Causing your show personel to look bad even if they are
bending over backward to help everyone and getting no thanks for it.
Allowing smartalecks to utter 'witty bon mots' at the expense of your
society volunteers. Like: "What jerk thought of that idea?"

Therefore there is a backlog of people waiting for plant entry tags, and
they have to run to get them on the plants before closing.

Additionally just about every program I've seen requires plant entry to be
spelled out - Brassolaeliocattleya instead of Blc. - and lord help you if
you spell it WRONG!! Therefore data gets input in error and/or clerks have
to run and chase down the exhibitor (who is already ****ed off), and/or
clerks figure they'll 'just wait' till the exhibitor comes back to check on
their run, only to find out the clerk didn't know how to spell
brassolaeliocattleya and so they are even further behind than they thought
they were. They really should have flossed too.

So for the 3 seconds it saves one person (juging chair) to 'find out' what
trophies are, you've ****ed off every exhibitor and every volunteer in your
show.

Pretty cool, eh?

Instead, put a sheet of paper (remember paper?) with all the trophies and
rules for selecting trophies on it in the front of your binders and have a
the clerk remember to fill it out as they go along. Note the word CLERK.
Have your clerks trained, and all else falls into place. If your clerks are
dorks, then anything you do will be a joke anyway.



2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates how
long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have been
grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy eligibility?


Yes. Ours state that a person must have owned their plant for 6 months
before being considered for ribbon judging. We do not have cops, but if it
gets out that a person did that they will be thought of as a jerk by the
club in general.

Ours also state that a vendor has to put in an exhibit, but that exhibit
does not have to be entered for judging. Else there would be no 'show' and
it would be nothing but a 'sale'.

Ours also states that diseased or infected plants may not be exhibited and
WILL BE REMOVED from the show. This is especially important in AOS judged
shows since the AOS is no longer enforcing that commonly accepted but
generally unwritten rule. They are trying to figure out what 'pest' and
'disease' means legally, and what consititutes 'infection'. They are also
consulting with Bill Clinton as to the proper definition of 'is'. So, to
prevent the classic finger pointing ('I thought it was against your rules'
'No *I* thought it was against *yours*...' )have it spelled out in your
shows rules if you ever want anyone to ever show their pristine plants in
your show again. It hard enough on the plants to be exhibited in a show.
Lord knows you don't want them coming back with aphids, scale or mealies
too.

Oh yeah, and have fun too!

K Barrett

"K Barrett" writes:
Exhibitors do not fill out their entry paperwork in advance. You may as well
ask them if they flossed that day. Everyone intends to, but no one except a
few anal retentive ******s actually do.

Could this possibly be caused by fear of being called anal retentive
******s?

Geir

"K Barrett" writes:
Exhibitors do not fill out their entry paperwork in advance. You may as well
ask them if they flossed that day. Everyone intends to, but no one except a
few anal retentive ******s actually do.

Could this possibly be caused by fear of being called anal retentive
******s?

Geir - ready for the hemlock now

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"K Barrett" writes:
Exhibitors do not fill out their entry paperwork in advance. You may as
well
ask them if they flossed that day. Everyone intends to, but no one
except a
few anal retentive ******s actually do.

Could this possibly be caused by fear of being called anal retentive
******s?

Geir

Undoubtedly!! Fear of being taken for someone who is efficient only brings
on more work!

K Barrett

"K Barrett" writes:
Exhibitors do not fill out their entry paperwork in advance. You may as
well
ask them if they flossed that day. Everyone intends to, but no one
except a
few anal retentive ******s actually do.
Could this possibly be caused by fear of being called anal retentive
******s?
Undoubtedly!! Fear of being taken for someone who is efficient only brings
on more work!

Ah.

Um.

Just let me sit quietly for a while to think of something witty and
pertinent, will you? I am sure there must be something...

Geir

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:18:37 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

"The Edgleys" wrote in message
...
Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well? I

Yes, Kath the original of the program you saw had no requirement
for early registration because it still uses the old 2 part form.

The program that is not sophisticated, so runs on what the
registrar enters is nothing but an access list of the classes and
their names. You enter the plants and their owners and floor
location. The program sorts the entries, counts the number in
each class so the King Judge can order up his Judging Teams by
the number of entries. Once the team number is entered it sorts
on that field to print the classes that each team will judge.

It is not a large program. IT fits on a floppy. It can have
multiple input computers as long as they all enter all the person
data (name, exhibit #, exhibitor #). Because at the end of the
day you can fold all the entries into one database and then print
out the reports.

Right now the format on the report of awards is awkward. But it
can be sent to Word.

Yes, I am planning on working with an access expert before Spring
Semester and working out some of the kinks, awkwardness.

How soon do you need it?
Kath - You will see the live demo in Denver in October.
http://denverorchidsociety.org/rmjc_news.html has our class
schedule. Sorry the species to class number and the show rules
are not presently posted.

In Illinois OS we used 6 mo. I like that better than the 4 mo we
use now. We have another rule that I think is odd. In IOS you
could buy a plant add it for filler to your display but not show
it for judging. Here if you get a new plant you can show it as a
display of plants owned less than 4 mo. and only the display will
be judged.... that means one plant can cause a display award. I
think the 6 mo. rule is best.

The Novice Display is an award for someone who has not put in an
individual display before. Not that they did not win, just that
they never built and individual display. Most years it is a
guarantee of an award. (Usually only one novice per show.) If
you work with someone and put in a "group (of 2) display - you
are still a novice. You can be in charge of the society exhibit
- you are still a novice.


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

First let me say I have always been against any requirement on how
long the exhibitor has to own the plant for ribbon/trophy
consideration. If the person has the good taste to recognize a
terrific top quality plant why should he/she be penalized for picking
it out a week before the show instead of a year before the show?? For
your Best In Show Specimen plant that can easily be a rule - to own
the plant at least one year. However you must realize that it is going
to be impossible to know if the person is honest and can cause a big
bruuhahaa if there is a fight about it. My recommendation is forget
that rule!!
In the old days our show used to rent convention typewriters to type
the entry tags so that they were very readable from a distance. Now
that the club uses a computer those tags are handwriten and almost
unreadable. I dont think that is an improvement at all.
If your entry team is a good one you just have a page on a clipboard
for the classes, grouped together for the trophies. As: All Cattleyas
together. As the classes are judged the blue ribbon winners are
highlighted on the sheets by the clerks and the judges look over them
to pick the trophies for that Group. If needed the teams can take a
run around and look again at the highest contendors for trophies. This
is all very easy and you don't have to bother with computers at all.
I do speak with some experience having worked on shows for many years
and also clerked and judged. I also wrote a couple of show schedules.
One for a very big show and another for a smaller show. You can have
some genera with more classes and others with fewer depending on what
is usually shown in your area and the time of year of the show. For
instance, we had the Vandas and Ascda. subdivided more here in Miami.
At our shows we do not have ribbons IN the space exhibets, they are
placed in their own individual plant area. But trophies are BEST IN
SHOW so are picked from the entire show.
It wonderful fun to work on shows, good luck with it all.

"The Edgleys" wrote in message ...
Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well? I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants in a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It would also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.

2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates how long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have been grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy eligibility?

I would be delighted if some of you would send me copies of your rules and
show schedules (plant categories). Thank you.

David

"Mary Lou" wrote in message
om...
First let me say I have always been against any requirement on how
long the exhibitor has to own the plant for ribbon/trophy
consideration. If the person has the good taste to recognize a
terrific top quality plant why should he/she be penalized for picking
it out a week before the show instead of a year before the show?? For
your Best In Show Specimen plant that can easily be a rule - to own
the plant at least one year. However you must realize that it is going
to be impossible to know if the person is honest and can cause a big
bruuhahaa if there is a fight about it. My recommendation is forget
that rule!!

Then what are you giving a ribbon to, as a club? Shopping taste??? Will you
be judging shoes next?

We give our ribbons to those who can *grow orchids*. Hence the 6 month rule.

Any jerk can buy a plant.

Many people laugh at ribbon judging. They come to that conclusion once
they've participated in judging a show and realize that in many cases there
are categories in which there is only one entry, ie *no* competition, so the
judges *just give a blue ribbon*. What kind of an honor is that?

If the club does not let the judges know that they take their show seriously
and truly want to encourage their members with STANDARDS, such as being able
to rebloom a plant you bought to the same level as that when you bought it
(if not better), then you are making a joke of your show and of judging.
IMHO.

Now, the AOS allows a person to buy a plant and get a quality award on it a
minute later. The explanation is that the FLOWER gets the quality award. The
grower has nothing to do with that. Sort of like Marilyn Monroe can't help
being a gorgeous woman, no matter who she's married to.

IMHO, the better AOS award to get is the cultural award, because that
recognizes the grower's ability to *grow* AND *flower* the orchid.


In the old days our show used to rent convention typewriters to type
the entry tags so that they were very readable from a distance. Now
that the club uses a computer those tags are handwriten and almost
unreadable. I dont think that is an improvement at all.

IMHO handwriting is better. Bad handwriting can cost you the AOS Show
trophy, hence the points awarded to entry cards on the Show Trophy ballot. .


If your entry team is a good one [snip]

Here Mary Lou and I agree. That is the whole point. The PEOPLE have to be
good. No amount of computer technology will make up for untrained volunteers
who haven't a clue as to what they are doing.

So, spend some time training your people. They will get more out of it, and
so will the club, in terms of having to do less training or having more
trained people who can train others next year.

K Barrett

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:04:21 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:


We give our ribbons to those who can *grow orchids*. Hence the 6 month rule.

YES, - AND MANY HAVE.

Many people laugh at ribbon judging. There
are categories in which there is only one entry, ie *no* competition, so the
judges *just give a blue ribbon*. What kind of an honor is that?

Not all judges give a blue - some will give a red or even pass.
There are a few standards - The opinion is that a winner, not
knowing the class size, will try harder next time and enter more.

Now, the AOS allows a person to buy a plant and get a quality award on it a
minute later.

I don't like this either. I think the award is to the plant as
grown by xyz... there should be a requirement that xyZ grows it.


IMHO handwriting is better. Bad handwriting can cost you

Bad handwriting can cost you time and typos when your building
the judges sheets. Having a clear typed list makes it easier for
them to review the entire class.

The PEOPLE have to be
good. No amount of computer technology will make up for untrained volunteers
who haven't a clue as to what they are doing.

So, spend some time training your people. They will get more out of it, and
so will the club, in terms of having to do less training or having more
trained people who can train others next year.

You need to train the head clerk on his/her duties and one of
those is to organize the rest of the clerks to help facilitate
the smooth running of the team. To know not only where the
closest exhibit is, but where there is an alternate or an
alternate path if traffic is a problem during judging. Good head
clerks train the others and recruit for next year.

K Barrett


SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

You'd apply that to a CCM????

Who would you be awarding?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Mary Lou" wrote in message
om...
First let me say I have always been against any requirement on how
long the exhibitor has to own the plant for ribbon/trophy
consideration. If the person has the good taste to recognize a
terrific top quality plant why should he/she be penalized for picking
it out a week before the show instead of a year before the show?? For
your Best In Show Specimen plant that can easily be a rule - to own
the plant at least one year. However you must realize that it is going
to be impossible to know if the person is honest and can cause a big
bruuhahaa if there is a fight about it. My recommendation is forget
that rule!!
In the old days our show used to rent convention typewriters to type
the entry tags so that they were very readable from a distance. Now
that the club uses a computer those tags are handwriten and almost
unreadable. I dont think that is an improvement at all.
If your entry team is a good one you just have a page on a clipboard
for the classes, grouped together for the trophies. As: All Cattleyas
together. As the classes are judged the blue ribbon winners are
highlighted on the sheets by the clerks and the judges look over them
to pick the trophies for that Group. If needed the teams can take a
run around and look again at the highest contendors for trophies. This
is all very easy and you don't have to bother with computers at all.
I do speak with some experience having worked on shows for many years
and also clerked and judged. I also wrote a couple of show schedules.
One for a very big show and another for a smaller show. You can have
some genera with more classes and others with fewer depending on what
is usually shown in your area and the time of year of the show. For
instance, we had the Vandas and Ascda. subdivided more here in Miami.
At our shows we do not have ribbons IN the space exhibets, they are
placed in their own individual plant area. But trophies are BEST IN
SHOW so are picked from the entire show.
It wonderful fun to work on shows, good luck with it all.

"The Edgleys" wrote in message
...
Dear Experts,

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a
system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well?
I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants in
a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It would
also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.

2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates how
long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have been
grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy
eligibility?

I would be delighted if some of you would send me copies of your rules
and
show schedules (plant categories). Thank you.

David

The Edgleys wrote:

Dear Experts,



I'm no expert, can I reply anyway?

Here are a couple of general show related questions. If you have a system
that really works well, I would like to know.

1) Does anyone have a computer program that handles show entries well? I
envision something that would allow us to print sheets of all plants in a
class by grower category to use for ribbon judging - not AOS. It would also
be helpful to be able to sort the winners of the classes for trophy
consideration.



I know this is done by many societies, but I have always found it to
be a royal pain. 1) somebody has to type in all the entries. This
person is inevitably not the best typist, and even if they are sometimes
the spelling mistakes are impressive. At least if you have the entry
tags the team can see what the exhibitor meant to write (whether or not
that makes sense is another problem). 2) if plants need to be moved
from one class to another, the team has to cross it off one list and
write it on another. This sounds trivial, but last time I judged
phalaenopsis over half the plants were misentered. Cattleyas were
pretty bad too. We usually try to move plants to the appropriate class
if possible. For all those reasons and more, it is easier for us to use
the paper registration tags and folders. Tags are easy to move. At our
show we still confirm crosses and put the parents of all hybrids on the
tags we give back to the exhibitors (using Wildcatt), it is a bit of
work but does correct some errors.

I think our system works exceedingly well, and I'd be happy to
explain it in more detail if you wish.

2) Do your "Exhibition Rules" contain a provision that stipulates how long
an exhibitor must own a plant that is shown for ribbon and trophy
consideration? Do your rules stipulate that the plant must have been grown
and flowered by the exhibitor in order for ribbon and trophy eligibility?



I believe our show schedule stipulates 6 months of possession.
However this is not enforceable. I think I've occassionally included a
plant in the society exhibit that was not 'legit' in the traditional
sense, but had transferred between society members in the 6 month
window. Since it is a society exhibit, it seems kosher enough. As an
aside, you are probably aware that AOS judging has no time
requirement. You can buy a plant off the sales table and get it awarded
the same day. In our center we call that 'Pulling a Wagner' for
historical reasons. It almost worked for me twice at the last show.
There is a time limit for AOS cultural awards (CCM/CCE) of I believe 6
months of ownership. Again, hard to enforce, it is all honor system
unless you have specific information to the contrary.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:40:45 -0500, Rob Halgren
wrote:


I know this is done by many societies, but I have always found it to
be a royal pain. 1) somebody has to type in all the entries.

This is where having decent typists helps, but it is more a case
of speed from the skill than accuracy. You need to have someone
who is knowledgable scan the list for typos. We are finding, 2
years in, that we correct more bad tags than typos. We find many
of the errors, but typing can be come transference from eye to
hand without brain scan in between. So we have a knowledgable
judge scan for obvious misspellings

At least if you have the entry
tags the team can see what the exhibitor meant to write (whether or not
that makes sense is another problem).

With the 2 part form - the back section - on the plant is often
just barely readable anyway. You could not tell if they wrote
e,o, or a. So who is to say it was a typo and not an exhibitor
error.


2) if plants need to be moved
from one class to another, the team has to cross it off one list and
write it on another.
I have seen tags lost in the shuffle and plants misplaced due to
the shuffle. One tag gets stuck under another.. etc. Give me
clean notes or lines diagraming the changes.

Misclassifications. Often this change is considered to be
something that should be done by the Judging team. So it is not
done even if found early. IF judges would do it - it would take
just about 2 min. per team to print a clean list and if only one
is needed less time than that. Some judges do not want to move
plants - they want to penalize the error and just note that it is
in the wrong class. All too often the clean up crew after
judging pulls all the tags and walks off with them. So much for
changing the class number.

But if the class number is not corrected HOW can the owner learn.
I would like to see more education at this point and may create a
tag to be left for the owner with the correct class number on it.
All too often the same mistake is made year after year by the
same people.


Another issue is the information on the back of the ribbon. In
our shows we fill it out, date, class, and judge sign. The owner
can put the plant name down. We have identified his win. But I
have been at shows where nothing is noted on the ribbon. If it
is in a OS exhibit, whose is it? Which plant, from which grower,
in which class? Well it will depend on where it fell after the
judges left the floor. So I like to see ribbons labeled.

The non label group tell me it is because many are recycled by
growers who want to win, but have not interest in collecting the
ribbon. OK - Put an address sticker on over the class and date
and reuse the thing. After all it is RECYCLED.

This is the computer vs. tag-in-folder debate at its best. It
will only be resolved by a complete change in systems that does
away with both of our sides I fear. Someday someone will
design a new registration system for orchid shows.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Susan Erickson wrote:

This is where having decent typists helps, but it is more a case

of speed from the skill than accuracy. You need to have someone
who is knowledgable scan the list for typos. We are finding, 2
years in, that we correct more bad tags than typos. We find many
of the errors, but typing can be come transference from eye to
hand without brain scan in between. So we have a knowledgable
judge scan for obvious misspellings



Yep, we do that too. A judge (or two, or three, it is a social
event) is usually hanging around registration, helping the registration
team correct tags and looking for the errors we know we will see. Some
common errors - dendrobium species entered in the wrong class (we have
three or four species classes, and nobody knows what goes where), and
primary Paph hybrids entered as species (or vice versa). Those are easy
to fix at registration, and we see a fair amount of that kind of thing.
We also check spellings with Wildcatt (looking up hybrids) and put the
parentage on the entry tag if it isn't already there. Somebody came up
with this as something to 'help the judges', which it doesn't, really.
But it does help verify spellings and whatnot, and it is usually pretty
educational for the registration team. Nobody gets their registration
tags back (to hang on the plants) until after they have been verified.
That way we usually have the right information on both the tag on the
plant and the tag in the folder. Tags that get moved after judging
starts are anybody's guess, I usually try to write the right class on
the hang tag, but I don't know if anybody ever looks at that.

The big typos I see in the 'computer system' are in numbers. Entry
people type in the wrong class number (or worse the exhibit number).
That is a painful error to track, and a wrong exhibit number is death.
Everything else is gravy, we don't really need accurate names to ribbon
judge, just accurate classes.

But if the class number is not corrected HOW can the owner learn.
I would like to see more education at this point and may create a
tag to be left for the owner with the correct class number on it.
All too often the same mistake is made year after year by the
same people.




Absolutely!!! If I know the owner (yes, judging is supposed to be
blind, but you can only do so many shows before it becomes obvious) I
try to make a mention of any obvious problems when I see them. Like -
"you entered that beautiful Lc. Dinard in cattleya species... Did you
mean to do that?" Usually it is just a mistake, sometimes the exhibitor
just doesn't know, and then it is a good opportunity for education.

Another issue is the information on the back of the ribbon. In
our shows we fill it out, date, class, and judge sign. The owner
can put the plant name down. We have identified his win. But I
have been at shows where nothing is noted on the ribbon. If it
is in a OS exhibit, whose is it? Which plant, from which grower,
in which class? Well it will depend on where it fell after the
judges left the floor. So I like to see ribbons labeled.



I insist on putting at least enough information to identify the
plant and the class on the ribbon. The judges in our area (Great Lakes)
are pretty good at that, although there are still a few who don't bother.

This is the computer vs. tag-in-folder debate at its best. It
will only be resolved by a complete change in systems that does
away with both of our sides I fear. Someday someone will
design a new registration system for orchid shows.


I guess it depends on what you are used to. I haven't lost a tag in
recent memory, but I do like the convenience of having a printout to
take notes on. Actually the secret to ribbon judging regardless of
system is good clerks... If the clerks are good, then everybody wins.
If not, it doesn't matter if you are using printouts, tags, or stone
tablets.

Actually since we have had this debate at least once before, maybe
you and I should try to come up with a discussion paper for printing in
the AOS Bulletin (Orchids, whatever.... still can't get used to that).
We could at least address what we see as the big issues, and recommend
some sweeping guidelines. I'm done with my judging homework, so I need
things to do... *grin*

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Susan Erickson wrote:
[snip]
Actually since we have had this debate at least once before, maybe
you and I should try to come up with a discussion paper for printing in
the AOS Bulletin (Orchids, whatever.... still can't get used to that).
We could at least address what we see as the big issues, and recommend
some sweeping guidelines. I'm done with my judging homework, so I need
things to do... *grin*

Part of the problem with most software that has been developed, in my
experience as a software developer appraising software products, is that
usually the developer and his management never get a chance to talk directly
to the people who use the software. More usually, the supervisor of the
folk who use it make a wish list to present to the marketting manager for
the software developer who then uses it to construct the terms of the
contract to develop the software. For COTS, it is even worse. The software
house either hires a marketting firm or asks its sales staff to find out
what features a given product ought to have (and usually these folk are
completely clueless with regard to what it akes to provide each feature),
and then, once the wish list has been constructed, passes it to the
developer who then has to figure out what is really meant by each item on
the list and how it can be provided. There is therefore usually a huge
discrepancy between what the software provides and what best meets the needs
of the user. I am OK with this since it means that there is usually a
significant market for what I produce since I design and implement my
products only after I get to know the user and understand how he or she
works. Before top quality software can be produced, the developer must know
well the processes the user currently uses to get the job done, as well as
how the user would prefer to get the job done.

What most "managers" don't realize is that wish lists are NOT the same thing
as functional requirements. For the kind of software you're discussing, it
isn't enough to tell, e.g. me, what the complete set of data items is. To
be effective, you'd have to describe to me IN DETAIL what forms are
required, how they are to be filled out, how the data is to be stored and
displayed and manipulated, what the data entry clerks need/want to do, how
the judges would use the data, &c. &c. &c. There could well be more than a
month's worth of full time work just discussing and analyzing these details
before any code has been written at all, and then several prototypes for the
various kinds of users to play with, and provide feedback, before you can
develop a version suitable for beta testing. And I am guessing that this
would be a relatively simple project. As you can imagine, this process is
expensive, which is why only a few actually do it.

As far as this discussion is concerned, I have not seen an issue raised that
can't in principle be adequately addressed by suitably designed software.
For each, there are several techniques that occured to me that could prove
effective. But a specific suggestion can't be made without significantly
more discussion than is practicable in this forum.

Cheers,

Ted