On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:33:37 GMT, "GrlIntrpted"
wrote:

I found the following definition for peloric on the web:

Peloric - In orchids, a term used to describe an unusual and often beautiful
(sometimes grotesque) condition where all three petals (instead of just one)
attempt to fashion themselves into lip colors and/or shapes.

peloric
\Pe*lo"ric\, a. (Bot.) Abnormally regular or symmetrical. --Darwin.

I have no clue what it really means, when it happens, and why it happens.
Can we talk a little bit about this "abnormality"? I really would love to
learn about it.

Mariana

You might want to look through the prior discussion on the subject.
The following TinyURL will give you a google search on prior post on
the topic: http://tinyurl.com/2au8b

In orchids the lip is a modified petal. When the two other petals
(generally at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock) start showing characteristics
of the lip (shape or color or both), the bloom is referred to a
peloric. Whether the result is seen as "beautiful" or "deformed"
depends a lot on the personal taste of the viewer.

deg

Pelorism is defined as a situation in flowers where there is symmetry in a situation that should
be - true in orchids whether that is three lips or three similar (non-lip) petals.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
et...
I found the following definition for peloric on the web:

Peloric - In orchids, a term used to describe an unusual and often beautiful
(sometimes grotesque) condition where all three petals (instead of just one)
attempt to fashion themselves into lip colors and/or shapes.

peloric
\Pe*lo"ric\, a. (Bot.) Abnormally regular or symmetrical. --Darwin.

I have no clue what it really means, when it happens, and why it happens.
Can we talk a little bit about this "abnormality"? I really would love to
learn about it.

Mariana
--
Adult: A person who has stopped growing at both ends and is now growing in
the middle.

oops...

That was supposed to be a situation in flowers where there is symmetry in a situation that should
NOT be

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Ray" wrote in message ...
Pelorism is defined as a situation in flowers where there is symmetry in a situation that should
be - true in orchids whether that is three lips or three similar (non-lip) petals.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
et...
I found the following definition for peloric on the web:

Peloric - In orchids, a term used to describe an unusual and often beautiful
(sometimes grotesque) condition where all three petals (instead of just one)
attempt to fashion themselves into lip colors and/or shapes.

peloric
\Pe*lo"ric\, a. (Bot.) Abnormally regular or symmetrical. --Darwin.

I have no clue what it really means, when it happens, and why it happens.
Can we talk a little bit about this "abnormality"? I really would love to
learn about it.

Mariana
--
Adult: A person who has stopped growing at both ends and is now growing in
the middle.

Sorry, Ray I didn't mean to jump on top of your post, it was just the last
one I read before I clicked the "respond to" button.

The flower parts of an orchid are arranged in two whorls. There are three
sepals in the outer whorl. For the most part these sepals are similar to
each other in shape and markings. Sometimes these sepals are called tepals.
(Lets not go there right now.) There are three petals in the inner whorl.
One of these petals has evolved an irregular shape which we call a lip which
means the inner whorl of the orchid flower is normally irregular. :-)

What changes would make an orchid flower appear abnormally regular or
symmetrical? (Think of trilateral symmetry here, not bilateral symmetry)
What changes would make the three 'petals' in the whorl look more alike?

Deformed flowers are very common. Not all deformed flowers are peloric,
strictly speaking, although you are likely to hear people describe them as
peloric. (I have been among this group of people.)

Color, pattern and markings, (rather than an actual shape change that leads
to an abnormally regular appearance) are sometimes called semi-peloric or
just plain peloric.

Pelorism can happen in any orchid genera. The botanical definition is valid
for all flowers, orchids or not, that have evolved an irregular shape and
can be applied to those individuals of the species that produce regular
shaped flower.

With regard to the three flower parts of the inner whorl; the two petals and
the lip. Evolution has changed the 'bottom' petal into a lip. So that this
two petal, one lip arrangement is normal in orchids. Most appearances of
pelorism show up as changes in the two petals that echo the marking or shape
of the lip. This is common in Phals leading some people (me included) to
define 'peloric' more narrowly than the botanical definition as referring to
only mutations in the petals that reflect the markings or shape of the lip.
(I am not saying they are correct or incorrect to do this. I am just making
a point that the word peloric means different things to different people)

A change in the lip that makes it similar to the petals is more rare. I can
only think of one example he Phal. World Class 'Big Foot', JC/AOS. In
this flower the lip has de-evolved back into a petal, producing a throw back
to the probable shape of the orchid flower's ancestor before the lip
evolved. In it's award description, as recorded in Wildcat, the judges
write: 'Big Foot' "has a uniformly petaloid lip which has vestigial
features of a normal lip". It has been called a "reverse peloric" by some
(probably me too) because it is the reverse of the normally seen type of
pelorism in Phals. Adhering to the botanical definition, it is still, and
only, "peloric".



"Ray" wrote in message
...
oops...

That was supposed to be a situation in flowers where there is symmetry in
a situation that should
NOT be

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Ray" wrote in message
...
Pelorism is defined as a situation in flowers where there is symmetry in
a situation that should
be - true in orchids whether that is three lips or three similar
(non-lip) petals.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
et...
I found the following definition for peloric on the web:

Peloric - In orchids, a term used to describe an unusual and often
beautiful
(sometimes grotesque) condition where all three petals (instead of
just one)
attempt to fashion themselves into lip colors and/or shapes.

peloric
\Pe*lo"ric\, a. (Bot.) Abnormally regular or symmetrical. --Darwin.

I have no clue what it really means, when it happens, and why it
happens.
Can we talk a little bit about this "abnormality"? I really would
love to
learn about it.

Mariana
--
Adult: A person who has stopped growing at both ends and is now
growing in
the middle.

Thank you Ray and Al, thank you deg, very helpful and a keeper for future
reading.

Mariana

"Al" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Ray I didn't mean to jump on top of your post, it was just the last
one I read before I clicked the "respond to" button.

The flower parts of an orchid are arranged in two whorls. There are three
sepals in the outer whorl. For the most part these sepals are similar to
each other in shape and markings. Sometimes these sepals are called
tepals.
(Lets not go there right now.) There are three petals in the inner whorl.
One of these petals has evolved an irregular shape which we call a lip
which
means the inner whorl of the orchid flower is normally irregular. :-)

What changes would make an orchid flower appear abnormally regular or
symmetrical? (Think of trilateral symmetry here, not bilateral symmetry)
What changes would make the three 'petals' in the whorl look more alike?

Deformed flowers are very common. Not all deformed flowers are peloric,
strictly speaking, although you are likely to hear people describe them as
peloric. (I have been among this group of people.)

Color, pattern and markings, (rather than an actual shape change that
leads
to an abnormally regular appearance) are sometimes called semi-peloric or
just plain peloric.

Pelorism can happen in any orchid genera. The botanical definition is
valid
for all flowers, orchids or not, that have evolved an irregular shape and
can be applied to those individuals of the species that produce regular
shaped flower.

With regard to the three flower parts of the inner whorl; the two petals
and
the lip. Evolution has changed the 'bottom' petal into a lip. So that
this
two petal, one lip arrangement is normal in orchids. Most appearances of
pelorism show up as changes in the two petals that echo the marking or
shape
of the lip. This is common in Phals leading some people (me included) to
define 'peloric' more narrowly than the botanical definition as referring
to
only mutations in the petals that reflect the markings or shape of the
lip.
(I am not saying they are correct or incorrect to do this. I am just
making
a point that the word peloric means different things to different people)

A change in the lip that makes it similar to the petals is more rare. I
can
only think of one example he Phal. World Class 'Big Foot', JC/AOS. In
this flower the lip has de-evolved back into a petal, producing a throw
back
to the probable shape of the orchid flower's ancestor before the lip
evolved. In it's award description, as recorded in Wildcat, the judges
write: 'Big Foot' "has a uniformly petaloid lip which has vestigial
features of a normal lip". It has been called a "reverse peloric" by some
(probably me too) because it is the reverse of the normally seen type of
pelorism in Phals. Adhering to the botanical definition, it is still, and
only, "peloric".



"Ray" wrote in message
...
oops...

That was supposed to be a situation in flowers where there is symmetry
in
a situation that should
NOT be

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Ray" wrote in message
...
Pelorism is defined as a situation in flowers where there is symmetry
in
a situation that should
be - true in orchids whether that is three lips or three similar
(non-lip) petals.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
et...
I found the following definition for peloric on the web:

Peloric - In orchids, a term used to describe an unusual and often
beautiful
(sometimes grotesque) condition where all three petals (instead of
just one)
attempt to fashion themselves into lip colors and/or shapes.

peloric
\Pe*lo"ric\, a. (Bot.) Abnormally regular or symmetrical. --Darwin.

I have no clue what it really means, when it happens, and why it
happens.
Can we talk a little bit about this "abnormality"? I really would
love to
learn about it.

Mariana
--
Adult: A person who has stopped growing at both ends and is now
growing in
the middle.

'right'...what we are looking at when we look at most orchid flowers with
the lip on the 'bottom' are flowers that are turned upside down. But I
didn't want to go there either. I threw in the word tepal and that was bad
enough. The one botonical word Peloric causes sufficeint confusion without
piling resupinate and nonresupinate on top of it. :-)

I like words. I like using them correctly. Here's hoping everyone has
forgotten about the wench and the augur.

"Myrmecodia" wrote in message
om...
"Al" wrote in message
...
With regard to the three flower parts of the inner whorl; the two petals
and
the lip. Evolution has changed the 'bottom' petal into a lip.

Great post! Just a minor nitpick: It is the upper petal that is
converted into the lip. Most orchid buds twist 180 degrees before
they open, so that the lip moves to the bottom of the open flower.
Some orchids do not twist, and the lip remains where it started, at
the top. But perhaps that's why you put 'bottom' in quotes...

Nick

Here's hoping everyone has forgotten about the wench and the augur.

Not a chance, Al! You own those two for life......

Diana ;oD

Augur? Did I miss the augur????
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

"Diana Kulaga" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
nk.net...
Here's hoping everyone has forgotten about the wench and the augur.

Not a chance, Al! You own those two for life......

Diana ;oD




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"Al" wrote in message ...
With regard to the three flower parts of the inner whorl; the two petals and
the lip. Evolution has changed the 'bottom' petal into a lip.

Great post! Just a minor nitpick: It is the upper petal that is
converted into the lip. Most orchid buds twist 180 degrees before
they open, so that the lip moves to the bottom of the open flower.
Some orchids do not twist, and the lip remains where it started, at
the top. But perhaps that's why you put 'bottom' in quotes...

Nick