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#1
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
What is the difference between isopropyl and ethyl alcohol? Can I use ethyl
alcohol in place of isopropyl in an alcohol/soap/water solution for spraying pests??? Can't seem to find isopropyl in Italy. :-( -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#2
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Isopropanol is C3H8O
Ethanol is C2H6O Methanol CH4O The smaller the molecule, the easier it is likelier to be for it to enter the plant tissue. I have heard of plant toxicity with ethanol, but have seen no evidence of it myself. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! .. . . . . . . . . . . "Reka" wrote in message ... What is the difference between isopropyl and ethyl alcohol? Can I use ethyl alcohol in place of isopropyl in an alcohol/soap/water solution for spraying pests??? Can't seem to find isopropyl in Italy. :-( -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#3
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Umm, can you say that first part again in English?? :-)
-- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "Ray" schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... Isopropanol is C3H8O Ethanol is C2H6O Methanol CH4O The smaller the molecule, the easier it is likelier to be for it to enter the plant tissue. I have heard of plant toxicity with ethanol, but have seen no evidence of it myself. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! . . . . . . . . . . . "Reka" wrote in message ... What is the difference between isopropyl and ethyl alcohol? Can I use ethyl alcohol in place of isopropyl in an alcohol/soap/water solution for spraying pests??? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#4
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
On Wed, 26 May 2004 12:10:03 +0200, "Reka"
wrote: Umm, can you say that first part again in English?? :-) Reka, is there not a rubbing alcohol or 'skin bracer' or astringent? I have seen all three as names for alcohol. SuE http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php |
#5
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Yep, but just ethyl alcohol. I can even get that 96% alcohol! The only
thing I can find on the web in Italian is for cleaning lenses and other use in photography, so I will ask a friend's daughter who works for a photographer. -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "Susan Erickson" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news On Wed, 26 May 2004 12:10:03 +0200, "Reka" wrote: Umm, can you say that first part again in English?? :-) Reka, is there not a rubbing alcohol or 'skin bracer' or astringent? I have seen all three as names for alcohol. SuE http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#6
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Ethyl is made of grain , where as Isopropyl is made of wood , I think that
is correct ...its been along time scince chemistry in school... Good Growing Todd "Reka" wrote in message ... What is the difference between isopropyl and ethyl alcohol? Can I use ethyl alcohol in place of isopropyl in an alcohol/soap/water solution for spraying pests??? Can't seem to find isopropyl in Italy. :-( -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#7
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Orchidguy wrote:
Ethyl is made of grain , where as Isopropyl is made of wood , I think that is correct ...its been along time scince chemistry in school... Good Growing Actually methanol is usually considered 'wood alcohol', I think. You can get it by 'distilling' wood, or cooking it at high temperature to drive off various gaseous fractions. One of those fractions is methanol. I'm sure it is made in a more efficient synthetic process by some chemical plant somewhere. It is used _a lot_ in organic chemistry and industrial organic processes. Ethanol is a by product of yeast metabolism. The other major product is carbon dioxide. That is why you get bubbles in beer and bubbles in bread, although any sugar source will work for a yeast, it doesn't have to be grain. While there is a synthetic method for making it, it is almost certainly cheaper to make ethanol using yeast. I'm not sure where isopropyl comes from. To the point at hand, you can't substitute one for the other. You can indeed disinfect things with 70% ethanol (which, curiously, is a better disinfectant than 95% ethanol). We used it all the time in the tissue culture hood. And it will indeed kill critters, ethanol is a pretty potent poison (in mammals as well). I've heard, however, that spraying ethanol on your plants isn't particularly good for them, perhaps because it is more membrane soluble. I've never tried it. In the random trivia category, it is a bit of an 'old wives tale' that you can kill yourself with methanol poisoning by distilling your own spiritous liquor. Like our american backwoods favorite 'moonshine' (also called white lightning, a corn liquor). That is probably a myth started by the government to discourage home production (and gather more in liquor taxes). Methanol is not produced by yeast in any significant amount, and there isn't really a mechanism for it being created when you distill ethanol out of a fermented beverage. At least not at temperatures you are likely to use... Now I'm sure you could kill yourself with moonshine, but it probably isn't methanol poisoning. Also curiously enough, methanol was (maybe still is) being marketed as part of one of those 'wonder-grow' formulas here in the US some time ago. Evidently a little methanol in your fertilizer enhances orchid growth (as do some other, more expensive, alcohols). Of course it might also make your new growths floppy and prone to disease, but that doesn't seem to dissuade people. Ethanol won't have the same effect, nor would isopropyl. They are all alcohols, but that just means they have an OH group attached to a carbon somewhere. There are all sorts of alcohols (hundreds if not gazillions), and they all have different chemical properties. If I recall properly, the synthetic form of estrogen (estradiol) is an alcohol (actually a double alcohol - diol). It certainly behaves differently than ethanol. All of that said, I have trouble believing that Reka can't get isopropyl alcohol. I'd suggest asking the pharmacist (or chemist/apothecary/or whatever your local word may be) for it by that name. I'm sure it is available, it might just be called something else. -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open for business - e-mail me for a list of minicatts and oncidiums ) |
#8
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Well,actually, my pharmacist is the first one I asked, and he said he can't
get it. There are however quite a few things you can't get here that you can in the States. Matter of culture, I suppose. :-) Did see DONUTS at the autostrada rest stop this year. Can't stop unhealthy, good food from traveling across borders, I guess. Hope someone proves me wrong and I can find it here somewhere. To the dismay of my mealies! -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "Rob Halgren" schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... All of that said, I have trouble believing that Reka can't get isopropyl alcohol. I'd suggest asking the pharmacist (or chemist/apothecary/or whatever your local word may be) for it by that name. I'm sure it is available, it might just be called something else. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#9
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Reka wrote:
Well,actually, my pharmacist is the first one I asked, and he said he can't get it. There are however quite a few things you can't get here that you can in the States. Matter of culture, I suppose. :-) Did see DONUTS at the autostrada rest stop this year. Can't stop unhealthy, good food from traveling across borders, I guess. So what do you use for cleaning scapes and cuts? Or for an injection site? Here a nurse (doctors don't do anything) will wipe down your arm with a little isopropyl alcohol before giving a shot, and they used to soak metallic instruments in it (now they autoclave everything - can't autoclave your arm). Of course you probably have something better over there. No donuts? DOH!!! Hope someone proves me wrong and I can find it here somewhere. To the dismay of my mealies! Dish soap, or a window cleaning solution (or both together) work ok. I suppose you've tried that already. Horticultural oil will work too. Unless of course you can't buy oil, either. *grin* Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open for business - e-mail me for a list of minicatts and oncidiums ) |
#10
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Rob Halgren writes:
injection site? Here a nurse (doctors don't do anything) will wipe down your arm with a little isopropyl alcohol before giving a shot, Ethanol or chlorhexidine in Norway. Geir - with friends who studied medicine while at university. Always a good thing for a student with little money to spend on parties - and alcohol is expensive in Norway. A pint of beer in a bar will set you back about $7, a bottle of wine from $30 and up, a drink with 4cl of spirits something on the order of $11. |
#11
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Rob Halgren writes:
Methanol is not produced by yeast in any significant amount, and there isn't really a mechanism for it being created when you distill ethanol out of a fermented beverage. At least not at temperatures you are This can't be right. There is methanol (and heavier alcohols) in even the finest Cognac. According to the head salesguy at Leopold Gourmel they run their processes past the stage where you start to get impurities in the end result on purpose because that is where the flavour comes from. And the headache, people tell me. Geir |
#12
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Geir Harris Hedemark wrote:
Rob Halgren writes: Methanol is not produced by yeast in any significant amount, and there isn't really a mechanism for it being created when you distill ethanol out of a fermented beverage. At least not at temperatures you are This can't be right. There is methanol (and heavier alcohols) in even the finest Cognac. According to the head salesguy at Leopold Gourmel they run their processes past the stage where you start to get impurities in the end result on purpose because that is where the flavour comes from. And the headache, people tell me. Of course there is a little methanol. But not a lot, and probably not enough to kill somebody even if you tried pretty hard to distill it out of a fermented mash. Of course you could heat the tar (literally) out of it, and get all sorts of things. I think beer yeast makes some of the higher weight alcohols as well, which certainly contribute flavor to the end product. That is why my homebrewed beer is better than the mega-mart kind, I use better yeast and feed it better food. I'm just starting to figure out how to grow wine yeasts, although i make a wicked cider *grin* I do know that no matter how badly you screw up a batch of beer, you won't get methanol poisoning. Actually you won't get poisoned regardless, if it was really dangerous you wouldn't be able to stand the smell, much less drink it. Yeast just doesn't make methanol in significant quantities. It wouldn't take much to make a difference though, if you were concentrating it. I'd bet that some of the methanol and heavier alcohols in a brandy or other wine based spirit may be coming out of the base material (the grape, the oak barrel maybe?). And heat (distilling) plus an interesting chemical mix in the presence of acids (which is what wine is) may lead to some further organic chemistry. It might not be the yeast at all. I bet somebody has spent an entire career studying this kind of chemistry. If not, somebody should. I'm not a physician. Nor do I play one on TV. But was my understanding (gleaned from numerous primary sources, like the internet! *grin*) that the headache comes mainly from formaldehyde produced by your own metabolism of the ethanol in the drink. Methanol would make it worse, no doubt... Supposedly drinking lots of water will flush some of that out of your body, but of course alcohol tends to dehydrate you to begin with, increasing the effective concentration of formaldehyde (and methanol, and deity knows what else). Doesn't keep me from enjoying a homebrewed beer, a glass of port, or the occasional spirit, however. Everything in moderation. -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open for business - e-mail me for a list of minicatts and oncidiums ) |
#13
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
"Rob Halgren" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
... Reka wrote: Well,actually, my pharmacist is the first one I asked, and he said he can't get it. There are however quite a few things you can't get here that you can in the States. Matter of culture, I suppose. :-) Did see DONUTS at the autostrada rest stop this year. Can't stop unhealthy, good food from traveling across borders, I guess. So what do you use for cleaning scapes and cuts? Or for an injection site? Here a nurse (doctors don't do anything) will wipe down your arm with a little isopropyl alcohol before giving a shot, and they used to soak metallic instruments in it (now they autoclave everything - can't autoclave your arm). Well, the label on the stuff I use for the kids says "benzalconio cloruro", if that rings a bell. Benzalcone chloride? Of course you probably have something better over there. No donuts? DOH!!! Nope, no donuts up until now. But we have some other desserts that are out of this world! Hope someone proves me wrong and I can find it here somewhere. To the dismay of my mealies! Dish soap, or a window cleaning solution (or both together) work ok. I suppose you've tried that already. Horticultural oil will work too. Unless of course you can't buy oil, either. *grin* Nope, we don't wash dishes *or* windows here either. We just replace them when they're dirty! grin By horticultural oil, do you mean white oil? In the meantime I have just mixed up dish soap, water and oil. I am hoping it is as effective as the alcohol mixture. Spraying every three or four days is a pain in the culo, however. -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#14
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Ah... the problem with responding at 5:30 am and before coffee
How about this: smaller = easier to absorb -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! .. . . . . . . . . . . "Reka" wrote in message ... Umm, can you say that first part again in English?? :-) -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html "Ray" schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... Isopropanol is C3H8O Ethanol is C2H6O Methanol CH4O The smaller the molecule, the easier it is likelier to be for it to enter the plant tissue. I have heard of plant toxicity with ethanol, but have seen no evidence of it myself. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! . . . . . . . . . . . "Reka" wrote in message ... What is the difference between isopropyl and ethyl alcohol? Can I use ethyl alcohol in place of isopropyl in an alcohol/soap/water solution for spraying pests??? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
#15
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Attn chemistry buffs: alcohol
Actually, pretty much all of the isopropanol in the world originates with crude oil...
-- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! .. . . . . . . . . . . "Orchidguy" wrote in message m... Ethyl is made of grain , where as Isopropyl is made of wood , I think that is correct ...its been along time scince chemistry in school... Good Growing Todd "Reka" wrote in message ... What is the difference between isopropyl and ethyl alcohol? Can I use ethyl alcohol in place of isopropyl in an alcohol/soap/water solution for spraying pests??? Can't seem to find isopropyl in Italy. :-( -- Reka This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it! http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 22.05.04 |
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