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#16
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Phal violacea var coerulea
"Pat Brennan" wrote:
Ray, If only what you describe was true for phals (I do not have enough experience to talk about other orchid types). If your normal curve theory was true, all we would have to do is self our very best plant to be rewarded with a batch of seedlings of which 50% would be better than the best plant in the greenhouses. There just would be no need for cloning. Unfortunately, mother nature has a different criteria for the curve then AOS judges would The curve does not fit good plants / bad plants it is similar plants / different plants. both ends of the curve could be absolutely horrible but still meet the criteria of the bell as different from the median :0 Dave (Lurker) Siegrist In my experience, selfings tend to lack vigor and need special treatment just to get them out of the seedling section. When they do bloom, very rarely do you get a flower that is better then what you started with. Many a time I have had self flasks or compots which did not produce a single plant that was any where near as good as the plant that was selfed. Selfing plays an important role in making stud plants, but in general think long shot. Pat "Ray" wrote in message ... Whenever you do a "selfing," you'll get a variety of characteristics, spread out in a bell-shaped curve. The majority - the middle, highest point in the curve - will be quite similar to the original plant, while as you get out into the "tails" of the distribution curve, you will get some with better features, some with worse. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! . "K Barrett" wrote in message news:FDvMc.154207$%_6.90600@attbi_s01... And the site reads that you may not (probably won't) get ones just like 'Gulfstream Blue'. Of course they phrase it that you may get something better.... K Barrett "V_coerulea" wrote in message ... HP's Phal. violacea ('Gulfstream Blue' JC/AOS x self) is every bit as beautiful as he claims. He's against meristem of these plants but now offers a flask of 5-6 selfed seedlings for $150. The blue of Gulfstream Blue is fantastic. Get one for next year's cross. That's HP Norton at www.Orchidview.com for those who didn't know. Gary "Mick Fournier" wrote in message ... Well it is that time of the year again to try and cross two nice Phalaenopsis violacea coerulea orchids I have been working with for the last couple of summers now. The pod parent this summer will be a mericlone of Joseph Wu's "Joy" from Taiwan I acquired earlier this year. It is blooming now and looks like this http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/f...a_coer_joy1a.j pg http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/f...a_coer_joy3a.j pg The coerulea is on the right side. I have included a regular violacea in the picture on the left just to see/test the standard magenta coloration. My question to you is this... do you know of any better coerulea clones/specimens than this? If so, I would like to see the picture or hear about it. Mick |
#17
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Phal violacea var coerulea
I would not doubt a word stated, Pat. I have no first-hand experience with selfing, but what I
described is a _natural_ distribution. I did, however, overgeneralize: What we have to keep in mind is that in order to get a "superior" plant, it is likely that a bunch of individual traits must come together. In the genetic distribution I mentioned, each of the individual traits are more-or-less distributed in a bell-shaped curve, meaning that there are lots and lots of similar curves. Whether or not the "preferred traits" happen to coincide in a single plant is probably a bell-shaped distribution as well, meaning that the probability is slim. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! .. "Pat Brennan" wrote in message ... Ray, If only what you describe was true for phals (I do not have enough experience to talk about other orchid types). If your normal curve theory was true, all we would have to do is self our very best plant to be rewarded with a batch of seedlings of which 50% would be better than the best plant in the greenhouses. There just would be no need for cloning. In my experience, selfings tend to lack vigor and need special treatment just to get them out of the seedling section. When they do bloom, very rarely do you get a flower that is better then what you started with. Many a time I have had self flasks or compots which did not produce a single plant that was any where near as good as the plant that was selfed. Selfing plays an important role in making stud plants, but in general think long shot. Pat "Ray" wrote in message ... Whenever you do a "selfing," you'll get a variety of characteristics, spread out in a bell-shaped curve. The majority - the middle, highest point in the curve - will be quite similar to the original plant, while as you get out into the "tails" of the distribution curve, you will get some with better features, some with worse. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! . "K Barrett" wrote in message news:FDvMc.154207$%_6.90600@attbi_s01... And the site reads that you may not (probably won't) get ones just like 'Gulfstream Blue'. Of course they phrase it that you may get something better.... K Barrett "V_coerulea" wrote in message ... HP's Phal. violacea ('Gulfstream Blue' JC/AOS x self) is every bit as beautiful as he claims. He's against meristem of these plants but now offers a flask of 5-6 selfed seedlings for $150. The blue of Gulfstream Blue is fantastic. Get one for next year's cross. That's HP Norton at www.Orchidview.com for those who didn't know. Gary "Mick Fournier" wrote in message ... Well it is that time of the year again to try and cross two nice Phalaenopsis violacea coerulea orchids I have been working with for the last couple of summers now. The pod parent this summer will be a mericlone of Joseph Wu's "Joy" from Taiwan I acquired earlier this year. It is blooming now and looks like this http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/f...a_coer_joy1a.j pg http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/f...a_coer_joy3a.j pg The coerulea is on the right side. I have included a regular violacea in the picture on the left just to see/test the standard magenta coloration. My question to you is this... do you know of any better coerulea clones/specimens than this? If so, I would like to see the picture or hear about it. Mick |
#18
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Phal violacea var coerulea
"Ray" wrote in message . and I left what I wanted.. What we have to keep in mind is that in order to get a "superior" plant, it is likely that a bunch of individual traits must come together. Yea, it is the total package that makes a plant great and it sure is hard thinking of a great plant as a bunch of bell curves. I do find it interesting that the mean of any of these distributions does not have to equal the value of the trait in the selfed plant. I have seen the average vigor decrease in many (not all) different self crosses. In the genetic distribution I mentioned, each of the individual traits are more-or-less distributed in a bell-shaped curve, meaning that there are lots and lots of similar curves. This distribution is a good way to describe measures on some of the traits of the selfings population, but it often does not fit. If a trait is caused by a single gene and the mother has Xx, the selfing trait distribution will be a two or three humped distribution. Add more genes to a trait and who knows what you come up with. I do not think it even has to be continuous. Another fascinating and often frustrating thing about these curves with selfs is that traits values are not always independent. "All the really good blue ones have awful shape." If a plant has XYxy the chances of getting a selfing with XyXy is dependent on whether X and Y are on the same chromosome. Pat |
#19
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Phal violacea var coerulea
Anyone have any idea why the original owner (whose name I forget) doesn't
want to clone the dang thing? He'd make a mint, no? K Barrett "Pat Brennan" wrote in message ... "Ray" wrote in message . and I left what I wanted.. What we have to keep in mind is that in order to get a "superior" plant, it is likely that a bunch of individual traits must come together. Yea, it is the total package that makes a plant great and it sure is hard thinking of a great plant as a bunch of bell curves. I do find it interesting that the mean of any of these distributions does not have to equal the value of the trait in the selfed plant. I have seen the average vigor decrease in many (not all) different self crosses. In the genetic distribution I mentioned, each of the individual traits are more-or-less distributed in a bell-shaped curve, meaning that there are lots and lots of similar curves. This distribution is a good way to describe measures on some of the traits of the selfings population, but it often does not fit. If a trait is caused by a single gene and the mother has Xx, the selfing trait distribution will be a two or three humped distribution. Add more genes to a trait and who knows what you come up with. I do not think it even has to be continuous. Another fascinating and often frustrating thing about these curves with selfs is that traits values are not always independent. "All the really good blue ones have awful shape." If a plant has XYxy the chances of getting a selfing with XyXy is dependent on whether X and Y are on the same chromosome. Pat |
#20
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Phal violacea var coerulea
Pat Brennan wrote:
This distribution is a good way to describe measures on some of the traits of the selfings population, but it often does not fit. If a trait is caused by a single gene and the mother has Xx, the selfing trait distribution will be a two or three humped distribution. Add more genes to a trait and who knows what you come up with. I do not think it even has to be continuous. Actually, when you have several random processes, their sum looks more and more like a normal distribution (ie, bell shaped) as you add new processes. This is know as the Central Limit Theorem in statistics. As little as the sum of six uniform deviates is a pretty good approximation to the Gaussian distribution. --Matt |
#21
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Phal violacea var coerulea
Pat Brennan wrote:
This distribution is a good way to describe measures on some of the traits of the selfings population, but it often does not fit. If a trait is caused by a single gene and the mother has Xx, the selfing trait distribution will be a two or three humped distribution. Add more genes to a trait and who knows what you come up with. I do not think it even has to be continuous. Actually, when you have several random processes, their sum looks more and more like a normal distribution (ie, bell shaped) as you add new processes. This is know as the Central Limit Theorem in statistics. As little as the sum of six uniform deviates is a pretty good approximation to the Gaussian distribution. --Matt |
#22
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Phal violacea var coerulea
Mick Fournier wrote:
Well it is that time of the year again to try and cross two nice Phalaenopsis violacea coerulea orchids I have been working with for the last couple of summers now. The pod parent this summer will be a mericlone of Joseph Wu's "Joy" from Taiwan I acquired earlier this year. It is blooming now and looks like this http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/f...coer_joy1a.jpg http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/f...coer_joy3a.jpg The coerulea is on the right side. I have included a regular violacea in the picture on the left just to see/test the standard magenta coloration. My question to you is this... do you know of any better coerulea clones/specimens than this? If so, I would like to see the picture or hear about it. It is nice and blue... I (personally) am not that impressed with the form, at least in comparison the regular violacea pictured. I see a lot of the regular violacea, not much of the blue form, so my opinion is worth exactly nothing. I don't know what your goals are, but I'd pay nice money for a plant combining the form of the regular violacea and the color of the coerulea. So, are you going to show us a picture of the pollen parent? I for one would like to see images of the entire coerulea set, just so I know what to look for when I see one in person. Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#23
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Phal violacea var coerulea
Rob,
The pollen parent is an older violacea coerulea I first showed on my website over four years ago: http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/f...iolcoer_oh.jpg Compared to violacea var murtoniana and violacea bellinia the flowers of these two coerulea parents are indeed slightly smaller... they are violacea var bowringiana plants and produce a smaller flower with nearly equal length sepals and petals. The color in the pod parent is a little better distributed over the entire flower and that is a big plus factor. Mick www.OrchidFlask.com ================================== |
#24
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Phal violacea var coerulea
"Ray" wrote in message . and I left what I wanted.. What we have to keep in mind is that in order to get a "superior" plant, it is likely that a bunch of individual traits must come together. Yea, it is the total package that makes a plant great and it sure is hard thinking of a great plant as a bunch of bell curves. I do find it interesting that the mean of any of these distributions does not have to equal the value of the trait in the selfed plant. I have seen the average vigor decrease in many (not all) different self crosses. In the genetic distribution I mentioned, each of the individual traits are more-or-less distributed in a bell-shaped curve, meaning that there are lots and lots of similar curves. This distribution is a good way to describe measures on some of the traits of the selfings population, but it often does not fit. If a trait is caused by a single gene and the mother has Xx, the selfing trait distribution will be a two or three humped distribution. Add more genes to a trait and who knows what you come up with. I do not think it even has to be continuous. Another fascinating and often frustrating thing about these curves with selfs is that traits values are not always independent. "All the really good blue ones have awful shape." If a plant has XYxy the chances of getting a selfing with XyXy is dependent on whether X and Y are on the same chromosome. Pat |
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