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#1
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More of the same or complementary?
One trouble with a single light that doesn't move is that some leaves
end up in the shade. Plants off to the side can be shaded by other plants. Even if you have wide open spaces between plants (a situation that NEVER lasts for long) there are leaves on the other side of the plant. I would hope you have painted the walls white or otherwise provided a way to reflect some indirect light. A second bulb at a different location in the room would go a long way in eliminating the shadows. For this reason, I vote for adding a 400 watt HPS bulb to what you have. The mix of two different kinds of light is nice too. I have one grow area with that combination. Don't worry, either 800 or 1000 watts in a room of that size will still have space for low light plants. Steve Doug wrote: I'm growing in a 6.5 foot by 10 foot room using a single 400 watt metal halide bulb suspended vertically with no reflector. The light isn't centered but near an east window where the high light plants are. I have lower light plants as well that are nearer to the other side of the room. I'm thinking about increasing the light to either one 1000 watt metal halide or supplementing the 400 watt mh with a 400 watt high pressure sodium light for a total of 800 watts. I'm growing cats, oncidiums, coryanthes, stanhopeas, phals and a smattering of other types. Which do you think would be the best strategy plantwise? Doug Bolton |
#2
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Doug wrote: I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants based on their light requirements. Yikes!! *********** I'm not surprised. 400 Watts isn't very much for the size of room you described. On the other hand, you don't need to reach the full light strength that you see recommended for greenhouse growing. As they say, there are no cloudy days under your lights. One of my grow areas has only a 400 W MH light and I can bloom almost anything in the 5x5 foot area under it. I do have 2 yellow Catts with mostly high light species in their background that bloomed rarely under the 400 watt area but did better under the 800 watt area. A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the sodium color. Yuck! ********* I'm with you on that. It took me a while to get used to my newer light that was half HPS. ............................................... . .............................................. So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate on/off switches for either light but I don't think so. ********** My newer light is the 800 W version of the Sun system VII. Even though the 2 ballasts are enclosed in a single box, there are two lines going in and 2 coming out. Each of the 2 bulbs has its own cord going to it. You wouldn't want to pull a plug at the ballast box but there is nothing wrong with unplugging one back at the wall outlet (or, more likely, at the timer). By the way, I turn off my lights for the summer and the plants go outside. (the few plants that I feel are too tender to go out spend the summer near some windows.) My outdoor season is 3 months at the most. The orchids have to endure a few, sometimes several, nights in the 40s to stretch the season that far. In fact, we usually have a few nights in July that are in the 40s. The plants put up with it. Steve |
#3
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Doug wrote: I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants based on their light requirements. Yikes!! *********** I'm not surprised. 400 Watts isn't very much for the size of room you described. On the other hand, you don't need to reach the full light strength that you see recommended for greenhouse growing. As they say, there are no cloudy days under your lights. One of my grow areas has only a 400 W MH light and I can bloom almost anything in the 5x5 foot area under it. I do have 2 yellow Catts with mostly high light species in their background that bloomed rarely under the 400 watt area but did better under the 800 watt area. A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the sodium color. Yuck! ********* I'm with you on that. It took me a while to get used to my newer light that was half HPS. ............................................... . .............................................. So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate on/off switches for either light but I don't think so. ********** My newer light is the 800 W version of the Sun system VII. Even though the 2 ballasts are enclosed in a single box, there are two lines going in and 2 coming out. Each of the 2 bulbs has its own cord going to it. You wouldn't want to pull a plug at the ballast box but there is nothing wrong with unplugging one back at the wall outlet (or, more likely, at the timer). By the way, I turn off my lights for the summer and the plants go outside. (the few plants that I feel are too tender to go out spend the summer near some windows.) My outdoor season is 3 months at the most. The orchids have to endure a few, sometimes several, nights in the 40s to stretch the season that far. In fact, we usually have a few nights in July that are in the 40s. The plants put up with it. Steve |
#4
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Doug wrote:
I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants based on their light requirements. Yikes!! A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the sodium color. Yuck! So I've been in a bit of a quandary about this. The consensus I'm getting is to go with the combination. I'd get more light with a 1000w mh then the 800w combination, but, as I'm growing indoors I do have a safety concern. MH makes me nervous. I've done some more reading and discovered the protected bulbs. They've a quartz sheath over the arc to contain the plasma if something goes wrong. They're affordable at 400 watts but not really at 1000 watts. And there's the heat. That'd be a benefit during the winter as I'm currently using a ceramic heater during the day to get 79-81 degrees. But it wouldn't be too good in the summer when temps get above that without the added 1000w heat. You're right about 2 fixed lights giving better coverage than 1 and they could be arranged so that I could basically leave the plants in the same position. So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate on/off switches for either light but I don't think so. A Plantastar hps looks like a good choice. Thanks for the input, hope someone else benefits too. Doug, since you faked your email address (I spoof mine too) I can't email you directly, but I have a used dual bulb HID fixture for cheap... I never had a problem with just MH lights. As a sole source of light it was fine. I don't much like HPS, the yellow color is unsettling to me. Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#5
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Doug wrote:
I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants based on their light requirements. Yikes!! A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the sodium color. Yuck! So I've been in a bit of a quandary about this. The consensus I'm getting is to go with the combination. I'd get more light with a 1000w mh then the 800w combination, but, as I'm growing indoors I do have a safety concern. MH makes me nervous. I've done some more reading and discovered the protected bulbs. They've a quartz sheath over the arc to contain the plasma if something goes wrong. They're affordable at 400 watts but not really at 1000 watts. And there's the heat. That'd be a benefit during the winter as I'm currently using a ceramic heater during the day to get 79-81 degrees. But it wouldn't be too good in the summer when temps get above that without the added 1000w heat. You're right about 2 fixed lights giving better coverage than 1 and they could be arranged so that I could basically leave the plants in the same position. So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate on/off switches for either light but I don't think so. A Plantastar hps looks like a good choice. Thanks for the input, hope someone else benefits too. Doug, since you faked your email address (I spoof mine too) I can't email you directly, but I have a used dual bulb HID fixture for cheap... I never had a problem with just MH lights. As a sole source of light it was fine. I don't much like HPS, the yellow color is unsettling to me. Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#6
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Good to hear you've tried a dual system and can live without 'cause that's what I'm trying. Going for 2 400 watt mh. If I really do need to supplement because the low light plants still aren't getting enough light I'll try a high output fluorescent. They're only about 12000 lumens but that should be enough. Expensive though as you throw out the ballast too when you switch bulbs. That is exactly what I have... Well, that and a greenhouse I'm still getting used to. Check out the plant room at: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren/orchids/Growing_room.htm Skip the high output fluorescents and use a smaller HID light. I have two 175W going right now, and a 100W one that is still in the box. A bit more expensive, but more effective and you don't have to throw away the ballast. Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#7
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Good to hear you've tried a dual system and can live without 'cause that's what I'm trying. Going for 2 400 watt mh. If I really do need to supplement because the low light plants still aren't getting enough light I'll try a high output fluorescent. They're only about 12000 lumens but that should be enough. Expensive though as you throw out the ballast too when you switch bulbs. That is exactly what I have... Well, that and a greenhouse I'm still getting used to. Check out the plant room at: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren/orchids/Growing_room.htm Skip the high output fluorescents and use a smaller HID light. I have two 175W going right now, and a 100W one that is still in the box. A bit more expensive, but more effective and you don't have to throw away the ballast. Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#8
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Well, I've installed the 2 400 watt mh lights and I don't think I'll need any supplementary lighting afterall. Checked with a light meter and I'm getting 4x the light I was with 1 400w mh and a generic ballast. Maximum foot candles has gone from 2000 to 8000! Happily none of the plants are showing signs of burning. That did happen when I went from fluorescent tubes to the HID lite. Check again in a few weeks, it will drop a significant amount. Not so much that you need to worry about it, but the bulbs do have an initial burn in period (like fluorescent tubes). It will still be plenty bright in there. If you check with the meter every couple of months, you will see a gradual decline after that initial sharp drop. Eventually the bulbs will burn out. But I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you replace the bulbs at staggered intervals (they won't burn out at the same time), you won't have as much of a shock as you did when you first put your plants under the new system. Also found I don't need a heater either. Was using a ceramic heater to get 81F daytime. With the lights the heat increases over the length of time they're on ending at about 91F. The Coryanthes are happy. Maintaining humidity looks like the challenge now. 'Till summer comes... That is a fortunate (or unfortunate) side effect of the big lights. For some systems (Hydrofarm, for sure) you can get manufacturer designed powered venting. Like dryer vents with a fan... Makes it look more space-agey in your basement. Remote ballasts help too, if your cord is long enough to reach outside the plant room. I've not had a problem with excess heat in the several years that I've had my current setup, due to the location of the room in the basement. But if you are getting up to 91F in the winter with your setup, you will want to consider venting some of that heat out of there. Be creative, a dryer vent and a muffin fan will solve a lot of problems.... I'm quite happy with my little Jaybird Fogger... It is hooked up to my RO system, and spins water into the air centrifugally. Makes a really fine mist. RO water is best, otherwise you will end up with powder all over your plants. I got mine used, but they aren't terribly expensive (compared to the lights and plants). Get a humidistat too. I really enjoyed working with that company when I needed some spare parts. Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#9
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In article , Rob Halgren
wrote: Well, I've installed the 2 400 watt mh lights and I don't think I'll need any supplementary lighting afterall. snips here and below Check again in a few weeks, it will drop a significant amount. Not so much that you need to worry about it, but the bulbs do have an initial burn in period (like fluorescent tubes). It will still be plenty bright in there. I replace my 400 watt MH bulb every fall. It does not burn during the summer months because the plants are summered outside. When I replace the bulb, I follow this procedu Catts and their crosses that have just finished summering outside go under the fixture, which is about 3.5 feet to 4 feet above the humidity trays and is next to a south-facing window. (By this time, they've set sheaths, which continue to develop with no danger of burning.) New plants or windowsill plants get moved to the side of the fixture so they don't burn-- they also get light from the windows. After a month, they can be brought in closer to the HID light. Also found I don't need a heater either. Yep, the light puts out a lot of heat. Because I have many humidity trays and a room set off from the rest of the house, I have no problem with humidity. Humidity trays DO work in an enclosed environment. This morning, it is 6 degrees F. outside, with relative humidity in the 50s. The relative humidity inside the orchid room is 75%, just from the humidity trays. The downside of using humidity trays is that they get a lot of algae and require dumping and cleaning (about every 10 days for me). You might be happier with a fogger--it will certainly save time. That is a fortunate (or unfortunate) side effect of the big lights. For some systems (Hydrofarm, for sure) you can get manufacturer designed powered venting. Like dryer vents with a fan... Makes it look more space-agey in your basement. Remote ballasts help too, if your cord is long enough to reach outside the plant room. I've not had a problem with excess heat in the several years that I've had my current setup, due to the location of the room in the basement. But if you are getting up to 91F in the winter with your setup, you will want to consider venting some of that heat out of there. Be creative, a dryer vent and a muffin fan will solve a lot of problems.... The humming of a ballast is, to me, VERY annoying. Because my office is also "the orchidarium, " I had an electrician drill a hole in the floor, replace the short balast cord with a long one, and put the ballast box in the garage below, where I can't hear it. It's on a timer, so I don't have to horse around with going downstairs to turn it off and on. The ballast box also puts out heat, which I don't need, and you probably don't either, so putting the box in the garage was a good solution. DD |
#10
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DD,
Add a little Physan to your tray water and you'll never have an algae problem. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! .. "dd" wrote in message ... In article , Rob Halgren wrote: Well, I've installed the 2 400 watt mh lights and I don't think I'll need any supplementary lighting afterall. snips here and below Check again in a few weeks, it will drop a significant amount. Not so much that you need to worry about it, but the bulbs do have an initial burn in period (like fluorescent tubes). It will still be plenty bright in there. I replace my 400 watt MH bulb every fall. It does not burn during the summer months because the plants are summered outside. When I replace the bulb, I follow this procedu Catts and their crosses that have just finished summering outside go under the fixture, which is about 3.5 feet to 4 feet above the humidity trays and is next to a south-facing window. (By this time, they've set sheaths, which continue to develop with no danger of burning.) New plants or windowsill plants get moved to the side of the fixture so they don't burn-- they also get light from the windows. After a month, they can be brought in closer to the HID light. Also found I don't need a heater either. Yep, the light puts out a lot of heat. Because I have many humidity trays and a room set off from the rest of the house, I have no problem with humidity. Humidity trays DO work in an enclosed environment. This morning, it is 6 degrees F. outside, with relative humidity in the 50s. The relative humidity inside the orchid room is 75%, just from the humidity trays. The downside of using humidity trays is that they get a lot of algae and require dumping and cleaning (about every 10 days for me). You might be happier with a fogger--it will certainly save time. That is a fortunate (or unfortunate) side effect of the big lights. For some systems (Hydrofarm, for sure) you can get manufacturer designed powered venting. Like dryer vents with a fan... Makes it look more space-agey in your basement. Remote ballasts help too, if your cord is long enough to reach outside the plant room. I've not had a problem with excess heat in the several years that I've had my current setup, due to the location of the room in the basement. But if you are getting up to 91F in the winter with your setup, you will want to consider venting some of that heat out of there. Be creative, a dryer vent and a muffin fan will solve a lot of problems.... The humming of a ballast is, to me, VERY annoying. Because my office is also "the orchidarium, " I had an electrician drill a hole in the floor, replace the short balast cord with a long one, and put the ballast box in the garage below, where I can't hear it. It's on a timer, so I don't have to horse around with going downstairs to turn it off and on. The ballast box also puts out heat, which I don't need, and you probably don't either, so putting the box in the garage was a good solution. DD |
#11
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Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try! I've undoubted created some of the problem myself by (1) using white humidity trays which show every bit of crud, and (2) flooding the pots in situ, which causes an unsavory mix of things to come out of the drain holes: S/H particulate matter, decayed root sludge from orchids recently potted in S/H, algae in the S/H pots, and decomposing bark in bark-based media. That combines with drowned gnats in the humidity trays to create an less-than-wonderful appearance. (I run three fans and use sticky traps, but I still have some gnats.) In article , Ray wrote: DD, Add a little Physan to your tray water and you'll never have an algae problem. |
#12
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I doubt the tray color does all that much.
ANY time there's light, water, and nutrition, there WILL be algae! Bleach is another alternative; cheaper, but doesn't smell as nice. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info! .. "dd" wrote in message ... Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try! I've undoubted created some of the problem myself by (1) using white humidity trays which show every bit of crud, and (2) flooding the pots in situ, which causes an unsavory mix of things to come out of the drain holes: S/H particulate matter, decayed root sludge from orchids recently potted in S/H, algae in the S/H pots, and decomposing bark in bark-based media. That combines with drowned gnats in the humidity trays to create an less-than-wonderful appearance. (I run three fans and use sticky traps, but I still have some gnats.) In article , Ray wrote: DD, Add a little Physan to your tray water and you'll never have an algae problem. |
#13
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Ray wrote:
I doubt the tray color does all that much. ANY time there's light, water, and nutrition, there WILL be algae! Bleach is another alternative; cheaper, but doesn't smell as nice. Unless you use the lemon scented bleach... Which is what I do. It doesn't actually smell much like lemons, but it smells a lot better than regular bleach. Actually there are a number of different scents added to bleach nowdays, very fashionable... Rob -- Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a. See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase more orchids, obtain more credit LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list ) |
#14
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I use 'country fresh' when flasking. It does mask the chlorine smell
somewhat and there is nothing more pleasant then choking on "country fresh" chlorine gas fumes. I might have to try the lemon or orange scent. Physan in the trays works a bit to hold off algae. At least it did in my trays when I grew in the basement. Chlorine, physan, whatever...the trays still need to be cleaned out several times a year and the gravel rinsed of debris. And of course, it goes without saying that one needs to be doubly careful to keep roots out of chlorine or physan impregnated humidity/catch tray water. "Rob Halgren" wrote in message ... Unless you use the lemon scented bleach... Which is what I do. It doesn't actually smell much like lemons, but it smells a lot better than regular bleach. Actually there are a number of different scents added to bleach nowdays, very fashionable... |
#15
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I use 'country fresh' when flasking. It does mask the chlorine smell
somewhat and there is nothing more pleasant then choking on "country fresh" chlorine gas fumes. I might have to try the lemon or orange scent. Physan in the trays works a bit to hold off algae. At least it did in my trays when I grew in the basement. Chlorine, physan, whatever...the trays still need to be cleaned out several times a year and the gravel rinsed of debris. And of course, it goes without saying that one needs to be doubly careful to keep roots out of chlorine or physan impregnated humidity/catch tray water. "Rob Halgren" wrote in message ... Unless you use the lemon scented bleach... Which is what I do. It doesn't actually smell much like lemons, but it smells a lot better than regular bleach. Actually there are a number of different scents added to bleach nowdays, very fashionable... |
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