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#16
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Tropical Hardwoods
I don't mean simply books of common plant names. I know those exist. I
mean an article or book that would trace the origin of most (since you object to "all") of the common names for a particular plant species. I would be surprised if that had been done because it would be a tremendous undertaking to search through the large literature even for a species such as Maclura pomifera that entered the botany and gardening literature fairly recently compared to many species. You admit you have no definite knowledge that such a work exists so your guess is as good as mine. My point is that you have been arguing that there are rules for common names although you never could produce any other than common sense. You have been arguing that common names have to originate in spoken language and not first appear in print, i.e. "Common names usually are written down not at all or only at a very late stage." However, the dictionary definition of "vernacular" does not have any such requirement. There are no rules for common names, and numerous common names first appeared in print. Some of those published common names then became widely used in spoken language. You said "This must be a candidate for the award to the worst misrepresentation ever? Or should it be entered in the race for muddled thinking?" I nominate what you stated on Oct. 30: "No, both Ioxylon pomiferum and Maclura aurantiaca still are a "valid name"" and "Ioxylon was not rejected. However it was a printer's error, technically an "orthographical variant", hence the correction. Ioxylon and Toxylon are the same name, with opinions differing on how it should be written." Appendix IIIA of the ICBN says Ioxylon is "nomina rejicienda" : http://www.bgbm.fu-berlin.de/iapt/no...e/APP3AE_3.HTM The ICBN is clear. Apparently the only "differing opinions" are yours and the printer who made the original error. The original author corrected it. Toxylon is the validly published name. As an orthographical variant, Ioxylon is "to be corrected to the validly published form of that name. Whenever such a variant appears in print, it is to be treated as if it were printed in its corrected form." (ICBN Chapt.7(1): 61.4). Ioxylon is only used in the case of a full citation. "In full citations it is desirable that the original form of a corrected orthographical variant of a name be added " (ICBN Chapt. 7(1): 61.4, Note 1). It should be labeled "pro syn." when used in the full citation. (ICBN Chapt. 4(4): 50A). It seemed like a comparable situation, you insist iapacho is merely a misspelling of lapacho, and Ioxylon was clearly a misspelling of Toxylon. Even the rigorous rules of the ICBN memorialize spelling errors and suggest they be included in a full citation of the species. For the no-rules field of plant common names, iapacho easily qualifies as a common name. I still don't see your "logical" reason for why bois d'arc degenerated into bodark. Bodark can be pronounced the same as bois d'arc. Thus, by your argument that true common names only originate in spoken language, bodark would not be a common name because when spoken it sounded like bois d'arc. Thus, it seems that bodark first originated in print. You never claimed ipe was an internationally accepted name for a particular plant species but for a type of wood from several Tabebuia spp. Therefore, it does not disprove my statement that plant common names lack international uniformity. I was talking about plant common names, not wood common names. You idea that ipe is a "good example of a [wood] common name that is more valuable and precise than a botanical name" is obviously wrong because it refers to wood from any of several species of Tabebuia. Labeling a log ipe is less precise than labeling it Tabebuia avellanedae. David R. Hershey "P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message ... David Hershey schreef You misinterpreted what I said. + + + Unfortunately no + + + I know of no articles that have traced the origin of common names for a particular plant species, do you? + + + I know that in Dutch there is a tradition of over a hundred years in just that. Since the British are almost as dictionary-happy as the Dutch I would be quite surprised if there is not a sizable bookcase full of such works for English common names. For my part I am glad enough to steer clear of such books so I would not know where you are to look for them + + + The most I have seen are just lists of common names with no attempt to roughly determine the time or region of origin or the first instance of publication. + + + If you are interested these books will likely come out of the woodwork quickly + + + When common names are coined by an author, as is often the case, then the exact date and originator can be determined. Many people often have no idea what a particular plant should be called so they look it up in a gardening, horticulture or botany book and find the common name, even if it was a common name first coined by the author. There is nothing in the definition of common or vernacular name that says that it has to be unpublished or be originated by nonscientists. The Webster's dictionary definition of vernacular is "applied to a plant or animal in the common native speech as distinguished from the Latin nomenclature of scientific classification." The definition does not disallow anyone from making up a common name for a plant. + + + Your point? + + + You said "common names like 'bodark' are used intentionally, while 'iapacho' is used only when an editor relies on OCR or on careless typing." That is not necessarily true. + + + Pie in the sky + + + Someone who sees iapacho in print, may intentionally use it again. + + + Vandals are everywhere + + + Who's to say bodark didn't originate from careless typing or a misspelling with a quill pen? + + + Anybody who ever thought about language? + + + You did use the word "logical." You said bois d'arc "'degenerated' for a logical reason" into bodark. + + + I said: Compared to [quote]: "Common name ... may be a degenerate form of another word, as markery is of mercury." a reference to a plant that made a recent appearance in this list looks "more appropriate" to me. Aso it is a nice clean derivation, which was 'degenerated' for a logical reason Seems self-explanatory to me + + + You argument that "careless typing" cannot result in a new common name in the case of iapacho, for lapacho, is not consistent with your view that Ioxylon, originating as a printer's error of Toxylon, is allowed as an "orthographical variant". + + + This must be a candidate for the award to the worst misrepresentation ever? Or should it be entered in the race for muddled thinking? Obviously there is no point in going over this again, but I must state (again?) that although an 'orthographic variant' may exist this does not mean it is 'allowed': it is "to be corrected" (61.4) + + + Even if Ipe is an internationally accepted name for a particular kind of wood, that really has nothing to do with this discussion of whether iapacho is a common name. David R. Hershey + + + You said "Unlike scientific names, common names lack international uniformity ..." Therefore ipe is a good example that this statement is inaccurate, and in the sweeping sense you use it, incorrect. It also is a good example of a common name that is more valuable and precise than a botanical name PvR |
#17
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Tropical Hardwoods
[ snip ]
You said "This must be a candidate for the award to the worst misrepresentation ever? Or should it be entered in the race for muddled thinking?" I nominate what you stated on Oct. 30: "No, both Ioxylon pomiferum and Maclura aurantiaca still are a "valid name"" and "Ioxylon was not rejected. However it was a printer's error, technically an "orthographical variant", hence the correction. Ioxylon and Toxylon are the same name, with opinions differing on how it should be written." + + + Eminently correct, but perhaps not easily readable to one not familiar with plant names + + + Appendix IIIA of the ICBN says Ioxylon is "nomina rejicienda" : http://www.bgbm.fu-berlin.de/iapt/no...e/APP3AE_3.HTM + + + Wrong. You do have a talent for muddling things up. You are mixing up two separate issues 1) Ioxylon versus Toxylon. These (Ioxylon and Toxylon) are the same name, with opinions differing on how it should be written, technically "orthographical variants". An issue of 1817-1819 2) Ioxylon and Toxylon versus Maclura. The genus Maclura has been conserved versus Ioxylon/Toxylon. The proposal was submitted to the 1930 Congress (more than a century later! As I reckon it this is a substantial amount of time). This conserved status of Maclura means that, in a universe where only Ioxylon/Toxylon and Maclura exist, Ioxylon/Toxylon is a rejected name. Outside that two-name universe Ioxylon/Toxylon remains a valid and legitimate name. If somebody decides that Rafinesque's species does not belong in the same genus as Harms's species then it will be called Ioxylon/Toxylon, the name that has priority. At such a time the issue of spelling will become interesting again. + + + The ICBN is clear. + + + As to whether the ICBN is always as clear as should be is an issue hotly debated periodically. Anyway it must be read with some care. Muddled thinking can lead to silly errors + + + Apparently the only "differing opinions" are yours and the printer who made the original error. + + + Wrong + + + The original author corrected it. + + + Quite. However as the ICBN now stands this is not a consideration. Not formally. + + + Toxylon is the validly published name. + + + Opinions differ, but actually this is the position I would take too. However, other than you, I do recognize this is not a consensus point of view. Probably not even a majority point of view. + + + As an orthographical variant, Ioxylon is "to be corrected to the validly published form of that name. Whenever such a variant appears in print, it is to be treated as if it were printed in its corrected form." (ICBN Chapt.7(1): 61.4). + + + That is the reference I gave + + + Ioxylon is only used in the case of a full citation. + + + Maybe you should debate this with the editors of the ICBN and the ING, both reference works disagree with you here + + + "In full citations it is desirable that the original form of a corrected orthographical variant of a name be added " (ICBN Chapt. 7(1): 61.4, Note 1). + + + Correct, as far as it goes. See below. + + + It should be labeled "pro syn." when used in the full citation. (ICBN Chapt. 4(4): 50A). + + + Wrong. Synonyms mean that different names exist for the same thing. Ioxylon/Toxylon are the same name (in different spellings) for the same thing. Rec 50F.1 applies, not 50A.1 Actually you would have known this if you had not misquoted. The full quotation is: "Art 61 Note 1. In full citations it is desirable that the original form of a corrected orthographical variant of a name be added (Rec 50F)." + + + It seemed like a comparable situation, you insist iapacho is merely a misspelling of lapacho, and Ioxylon was clearly a misspelling of Toxylon. Even the rigorous rules of the ICBN memorialize spelling errors and suggest they be included in a full citation of the species. + + + But not necessarily used, and only cited if they occurred in "the form as originally published". Later typographical errors are just errors to be corrected. + + + For the no-rules field of plant common names, iapacho easily qualifies as a common name. + + + Wrong This will only happen if a lot of somebodies take this up: iapacho has not even begun to be more than a stupid and irritant error + + + I still don't see your "logical" reason for why bois d'arc degenerated into bodark. Bodark can be pronounced the same as bois d'arc. + + + Maybe you should take a refresher course in French? + + + Thus, by your argument that true common names only originate in spoken language, bodark would not be a common name because when spoken it sounded like bois d'arc. Thus, it seems that bodark first originated in print. You never claimed ipe was an internationally accepted name for a particular plant species but for a type of wood from several Tabebuia spp. Therefore, it does not disprove my statement that plant common names lack international uniformity. I was talking about plant common names, not wood common names. + + + Ah well here I was thinking that "strawberry" for Fragaria species and "wheat" for some Triticum species were universally agreed upon English common names. Apparently these are not universally agreed upon, but there is a lone holdout. + + + You idea that ipe is a "good example of a [wood] common name that is more valuable and precise than a botanical name" is obviously wrong because it refers to wood from any of several species of Tabebuia. David R. Hershey Labeling a log ipe is less precise than labeling it Tabebuia avellanedae. + + + Wrong. Labelling a log "ipe" is as precise as it gets. Labelling it Tabebuia avellanadae can at best be equally precise, but is likely to be lot less precise. I would not hesitate to call it downright misleading, unless two criteria are met. 1) There must be pre-agreement that Tabebuia avellanadae is a current name (not certain by a long way) and 2) it must be shown that this log was yielded by a tree of that species. Especially the latter will likely be impossible. Maybe it is time you conceded you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about? PvR |
#18
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Tropical Hardwoods
I'm not "muddling things up", you are by disputing obvious facts. I
simply said the ICBN lists Ioxylon as a "nomina rejicienda" but you disagreed and said Ioxylon is not a rejected name. It is easy for someone to determine which is correct. They can check the ICBN webpage that designates Ioxylon as a "nomina rejicienda": http://www.bgbm.fu-berlin.de/iapt/no...ANGEs00302.htm -------------- You stated, "If somebody decides that Rafinesque's species does not belong in the same genus as Harms's species then it will be called Ioxylon/Toxylon, the name that has priority. At such a time the issue of spelling will become interesting again." What exactly are you speculating about here? Be specific and give species names, not just the authorities. Under what rules of the ICBN would what you propose be allowed? Rafinesque lost priority for Toxylon to Nuttall's Maclura which is not easily reversed. If new research reveals Maclura pomifera does not belong in the same genus as other Maclura species, then those species will have to be moved to a different genus. If Maclura pomifera is ever revealed to belong in a genus established before Maclura, then it would be moved into that genus. There seems to be no way that Toxylon will ever be used as a current genus for a plant species unless the ICBN reverses its ruling and gives Rafinesque's Toxylon priority over Nuttall's Maclura. That seems unlikely. Do you know the specific reasons why the ICBN picked Maclura over Toxylon? The typo of Ioxylon for Toxylon doesn't seem a sufficient reason. I looked up Rafinesque's 1817 description for Toxylon pomiferum, and it is not clear that he actually ever saw Osage orange. In fact he mentioned that he learned of the species from other botanists including Nuttall, who was perhaps the first botanist to collect it in the wild because Lewis and Clark found Osage orange in cultivation. Rafinesque compared Osage orange fruit to breadfruit and incorrectly claimed the osage orange fruit was "very good to eat." Even his name Toxylon is misapplied because he said it is Greek for "arrow wood" but Osage orange was well-known for it use as bow wood, which Meriwether Lewis even noted in his 1804 letter to President Jefferson. Part of the reason why Rafinesque lost priority might have been his poor reputation as a botanist. Rafinesque was amazingly productive with over 2,700 generic names and 6,400 species names to his credit but very few of those names are in use today, including only about 30 of his genera: http://www2.evansville.edu/ck6/bstud/rafin.html Even his admirers admit he emphasized quantity over quality in his botanical publications. Many of his botanical contemporaries considered that he was insane and ignored his work. His 1819 publication that gave the correct spelling of Toxylon first gave another incorrect spelling, Xoxylon. The 1819 publication was a long, harsh review of Nuttall's Genera of North American Plants in which Rafinesque lambasted Nuttall and numerous other botanists for not using his plant names. ---------- You took my statement, "The ICBN is clear.", out of context. I was just talking about ICBN labeling Ioxylon as "nomina rejicienda." The ICBN is not always crystal clear on some matters. --------- You said that "The proposal [to conserve Maclura versus Toxylon] was submitted to the 1930 Congress (more than a century later! As I reckon it this is a substantial amount of time)." You are greatly exaggerating the amount of time involved. Agreement on an international code of botanical nomenclature was not reached until 1930 at the Botanical Congress in Cambridge, England. So if your 1930 date is correct, the Maclura versus Toxylon question was submitted immediately upon reaching consensus on a truly international code. Famous taxonomist, Arthur Cronquist's text, Introductory Botany 2nd edition, notes that the earliest attempt for international rules governing botanical nomenclature was not until 1867 in Paris but botanists from Kew, Berlin and the United States did not accept the Paris code and each developed their own codes. That first attempt was fifty years after Rafinesque's publication on Ioxylon. It probably would have been politically unwise for a pre-1930 Botanical Congress to have considered disputed American species, such as Maclura versus Toxylon, prior to reaching a compromise with the adherants of the American Code of Botanical Nomenclature. Britton helped write the American Code, and he used Toxylon over Maclura in his 1913 Flora of the Northern United States... which had Brown as coauthor. Even before 1930, Maclura was being conserved under the international code by at least some botanists in the United States. In the 1922 edition of the Standard Cyclopedia of Horticulture, Liberty Hyde Bailey said of Maclura pomifera, "It is sometimes described under Toxylon, but this name is replaced with Maclura by the 'nomina conservanda' rule of the international rules." Asa Gray's New Manual of Botany 8th edition of 1908 adopted the 1905 Vienna code and also used Maclura pomifera. The Maclura/Toxylon priority dispute seems to have been settled in 1906 by Schneider who published Maclura pomifera (Raf.) C. K. Schneid. Rafinesque got his specific epithet and a listing as a coauthority. Nuttall got his genus name, and Schneider attached his own name as a coauthority for settling the matter. Do you know what reason(s) Schneider used to give priority to Maclura? --------- In response to my statement that "Toxylon is the validly published name." you replied, "Opinions differ, but actually this is the position I would take too. However, other than you, I do recognize this is not a consensus point of view. Probably not even a majority point of view." You took the statement out of context again. What I was saying was Toxylon, not Ioxylon, is the validly published name. Are you agreeing with that or saying Toxylon should have priority over Maclura? --------- In response to my statement that "Ioxylon is only used in the case of a full citation." you replied, "Maybe you should debate this with the editors of the ICBN and the ING, both reference works disagree with you here." The ICBN agrees with my statement, "61.4. The orthographical variants of a name are to be corrected to the validly published form of that name. Whenever such a variant appears in print, it is to be treated as if it were printed in its corrected form. Note 1. In full citations it is desirable that the original form of a corrected orthographical variant of a name be added (Rec. 50F)." Why is my statement inconsistent with ICBN? It says to correct an orthographical variant [e.g. Ioxylon] to the validly published form [e.g. Toxylon]. Note 1 is worded rather poorly but in this case Ioxylon would be both the "original form" and the "orthographical variant" whereas Toxylon is the "corrected ...name." ------------ In response to my statement, "It should be labeled "pro syn." when used in the full citation. (ICBN Chapt. 4(4): 50A)." you replied: "Wrong. Synonyms mean that different names exist for the same thing. Ioxylon/Toxylon are the same name (in different spellings) for the same thing. Rec 50F.1 applies, not 50A.1" Regardless of the rule, Ioxylon pomiferum and Toxylon pomiferum are still listed as synonyms for Maclura pomifera even by botanists at the Philadelphia Academy of Natural Sciences, which holds many of the botanical specimens collected by Lewis and Clark, including osage orange: http://www.inform.umd.edu/PBIO/L&C/L...6.html#Maclura --------- A lot of common names arose as "stupid" errors, including bodark and its variants. In a list of all the common names for Tabebuia avellanadae = T. ipe, iapacho could logically be included along with lapacho even if it is only a misspelling. -------- One doesn't need a refresher course in French because bois d'arc was adopted into English. Bois d'arc is listed in the main section of the 1973 Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, and the pronunciation is bo-dark with a long o for bo. The pronunciation of the second syllable is the same as the word "dark." You can hear the pronunciation of bois d'arc he http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=d'arc It is very likely that most people were correctly pronouncing bois d'arc, and someone heard it pronounced correctly but misspelled it as bodark in print and created a degenerate common name. -------- Even if "strawberry" and "wheat" are "universally agreed upon English common names," they are not internationally used in other languages so are less useful than scientific names. There are more than one cultivated species of both wheat and strawberry so at best they would be English common names at a generic level, not at a species level. I have a Japanese-language book on variegated plants which has Latin names including "Fragaria ananassa", but "strawberry" does not appear so an international English common name is of no value in non-English literature. -------- Your claim that "ipe" is an international common name more precise than a scientific name is illogical. Ipe is applied to wood of any of several Tabebuia spp. and is one of several common names for such wood: http://trimscrew.com/IPE.htm http://www.austinwholesaledecking.co...nical_info.htm Therefore, wood labeled "ipe" is not as precise as wood correctly labeled with a single species, such as Tabebuia avellanadae = T. ipe. Your defense that Tabebuia avellanadae is not a "current" name is not logical because even if Tabebuia avellanadae is not the "current" name, it is a synonym, which can be easily linked to the "current" name. The "current" name for a particular species is often unclear because taxonomists sometimes disagree on the "current" name for a particular species. Fortunately, if you have one synonym for a species, you can readily find all the other synonyms for that species. Your defense that it "will likely be impossible" to determine which species of Tabebuia the log represents is not logical. The species would have been determined before the tree was cut down otherwise it would not have been labeled T. avellanadae in the first place. David R. Hershey "P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message ... [ snip ] You said "This must be a candidate for the award to the worst misrepresentation ever? Or should it be entered in the race for muddled thinking?" I nominate what you stated on Oct. 30: "No, both Ioxylon pomiferum and Maclura aurantiaca still are a "valid name"" and "Ioxylon was not rejected. However it was a printer's error, technically an "orthographical variant", hence the correction. Ioxylon and Toxylon are the same name, with opinions differing on how it should be written." + + + Eminently correct, but perhaps not easily readable to one not familiar with plant names + + + Appendix IIIA of the ICBN says Ioxylon is "nomina rejicienda" : http://www.bgbm.fu-berlin.de/iapt/no...e/APP3AE_3.HTM + + + Wrong. You do have a talent for muddling things up. You are mixing up two separate issues 1) Ioxylon versus Toxylon. These (Ioxylon and Toxylon) are the same name, with opinions differing on how it should be written, technically "orthographical variants". An issue of 1817-1819 2) Ioxylon and Toxylon versus Maclura. The genus Maclura has been conserved versus Ioxylon/Toxylon. The proposal was submitted to the 1930 Congress (more than a century later! As I reckon it this is a substantial amount of time). This conserved status of Maclura means that, in a universe where only Ioxylon/Toxylon and Maclura exist, Ioxylon/Toxylon is a rejected name. Outside that two-name universe Ioxylon/Toxylon remains a valid and legitimate name. If somebody decides that Rafinesque's species does not belong in the same genus as Harms's species then it will be called Ioxylon/Toxylon, the name that has priority. At such a time the issue of spelling will become interesting again. + + + The ICBN is clear. + + + As to whether the ICBN is always as clear as should be is an issue hotly debated periodically. Anyway it must be read with some care. Muddled thinking can lead to silly errors + + + Apparently the only "differing opinions" are yours and the printer who made the original error. + + + Wrong + + + The original author corrected it. + + + Quite. However as the ICBN now stands this is not a consideration. Not formally. + + + Toxylon is the validly published name. + + + Opinions differ, but actually this is the position I would take too. However, other than you, I do recognize this is not a consensus point of view. Probably not even a majority point of view. + + + As an orthographical variant, Ioxylon is "to be corrected to the validly published form of that name. Whenever such a variant appears in print, it is to be treated as if it were printed in its corrected form." (ICBN Chapt.7(1): 61.4). + + + That is the reference I gave + + + Ioxylon is only used in the case of a full citation. + + + Maybe you should debate this with the editors of the ICBN and the ING, both reference works disagree with you here + + + "In full citations it is desirable that the original form of a corrected orthographical variant of a name be added " (ICBN Chapt. 7(1): 61.4, Note 1). + + + Correct, as far as it goes. See below. + + + It should be labeled "pro syn." when used in the full citation. (ICBN Chapt. 4(4): 50A). + + + Wrong. Synonyms mean that different names exist for the same thing. Ioxylon/Toxylon are the same name (in different spellings) for the same thing. Rec 50F.1 applies, not 50A.1 Actually you would have known this if you had not misquoted. The full quotation is: "Art 61 Note 1. In full citations it is desirable that the original form of a corrected orthographical variant of a name be added (Rec 50F)." + + + It seemed like a comparable situation, you insist iapacho is merely a misspelling of lapacho, and Ioxylon was clearly a misspelling of Toxylon. Even the rigorous rules of the ICBN memorialize spelling errors and suggest they be included in a full citation of the species. + + + But not necessarily used, and only cited if they occurred in "the form as originally published". Later typographical errors are just errors to be corrected. + + + For the no-rules field of plant common names, iapacho easily qualifies as a common name. + + + Wrong This will only happen if a lot of somebodies take this up: iapacho has not even begun to be more than a stupid and irritant error + + + I still don't see your "logical" reason for why bois d'arc degenerated into bodark. Bodark can be pronounced the same as bois d'arc. + + + Maybe you should take a refresher course in French? + + + Thus, by your argument that true common names only originate in spoken language, bodark would not be a common name because when spoken it sounded like bois d'arc. Thus, it seems that bodark first originated in print. You never claimed ipe was an internationally accepted name for a particular plant species but for a type of wood from several Tabebuia spp. Therefore, it does not disprove my statement that plant common names lack international uniformity. I was talking about plant common names, not wood common names. + + + Ah well here I was thinking that "strawberry" for Fragaria species and "wheat" for some Triticum species were universally agreed upon English common names. Apparently these are not universally agreed upon, but there is a lone holdout. + + + You idea that ipe is a "good example of a [wood] common name that is more valuable and precise than a botanical name" is obviously wrong because it refers to wood from any of several species of Tabebuia. David R. Hershey Labeling a log ipe is less precise than labeling it Tabebuia avellanedae. + + + Wrong. Labelling a log "ipe" is as precise as it gets. Labelling it Tabebuia avellanadae can at best be equally precise, but is likely to be lot less precise. I would not hesitate to call it downright misleading, unless two criteria are met. 1) There must be pre-agreement that Tabebuia avellanadae is a current name (not certain by a long way) and 2) it must be shown that this log was yielded by a tree of that species. Especially the latter will likely be impossible. Maybe it is time you conceded you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about? PvR |
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