Jeff Root schreef
I find rhubarb stalks to taste fruity. Do you?

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No
PvR

Jeff Root schreef
What distinguishes fruits which taste fruity from those which
do not?

P van Rijckevorsel replied to Jeff Root:
Mostly sugar? Also color, smell and taste. The substances
responsible for the last two are only very subtly different.

I'm marginally aware of the complex relationship between the
senses of smell and taste, and considered mentioning it in my
first post, but left it out for simplicity. My understanding
is that the sense of taste is limited to sweet, sour, bitter,
and salty, while the sense of smell seems to be unlimited.
So I'm pretty sure that it is really fruity odors that I'm
asking about, when I ask about fruity "taste".

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Actually you are misreading me here. What I said here (very concisely) is
that the chemical substances responsible for smell and taste in a certain
plant are only subtly different from those used by the same plant in
repelling boarders (hey, a pun!). I was assuming you were interested in
chemistry.
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Could you give me examples of:

Fruits which taste fruity but are not cultivated for food.
(And maybe some indication of *why* they aren't.)

98% of all fruits? Laziness?

That seems unlikely.

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Likely has nothing to with it. I am talking Science not Law. Science deals
with observable facts (Law is all about making facts dissappear).
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Everything goes into somebody's mouth at
some time or other, especially when famine hits. If it turns
out to taste any good, someone will try to make money off of it.

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Making money and doing work (or worse: thinking and planning) do not usually
go together. Also, trying is something else than succeeding.
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Fruits which do not taste fruity and are not cultivated for
food. (And again some indication of why they aren't.)

Acorns. Although the fruits are used the trees are not cultivated
for this.

Are you saying that nobody plants oak trees with the intention
of eventually harvesting acorns from them [for food]?

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Surely an eminently safe thing to say?
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The description of "fruit" that I'm using is:

An ovary of a plant, containing the seed or seeds,
together with its envelope and any closely-connected parts.

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This approach is both practical and self-defeating.
If you define as a fruit everything that serves (endo)zoochory (spreading
seeds by including them in something eaten by animals, or the seeds being
designed to be eaten themselves) you are doomed not to get far in finding
examples of plant parts that are fruity without the structure actually being
connected to seeds.
PvR

Jeff Root schreef
But those things that "do not" really don't always taste like one
another either,

Of course. Even if the textures were anything alike, I
wouldn't mistake the flavor of tomato for the flavor of squash.
But I fail to get your point.

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Maybe he meant that tomatoes do not all taste alike, and that spanish
peppers don't all taste alike or like sweet peppers?
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I ... don't expect to play [a botanist] on TV.

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Let's be thankful for small favors! ;-)
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Here's a page no search engine will find. It's the reason for
my questions. I'm working on the auxillary info at the bottom
of the page. It may also be necessary to add something about
seedless fruit, somewhere. I'm giving you a sneak preview of
my nearly-but-not-quite finished page... The Tomato Question.

http://www.freemars.org/jeff2/tomato/

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A very good example of using very many words to say very little?
PvR

An interesting aside to this discussion, perhaps a bit OT, but close -- modern
cultivated pineapples are seedless only because they are strongly
self-incompatible (cannot use pollen from the same cultivar), and they are
planted in solid blocks of a single cultivar. Plant any 2 cultivars side by
side, and you get lots of seeds. A significant problem for the hobbyist
grower, who wants several varieties and grows them in a small area. I rather
suspect the same thing would happen with "unimproved" wild types, since
self-incompatability is common in the wild, for encouraging outcrossing.

It sounds to me as though you're headed for the concept that short-chain (and
therefore relatively volatile) esters are the source of "fruity" flavors and
aromas. Different fruits have various combinations of them.

Just a guess from a p-chemist who vaguely remembers that organic stuff. If
there is any chemistry that distinguishes fruity flavor, it is probably
associated with simple esters (organic acid + alcohol gives ester linkage
with elimination of a water molecule). I don't have a list handy, but many
simple esters like ethyl butrate have fruity odors. Maybe you would find
that the vegetably things lack esters, maybe because the plant doesn't pack
these tissues with "eat me" chemicals.
Rick

I trust you saw my message about the Japanese raisin tree and other "fruity"
tasting plant organs which are not technically fruits, like strawberries.
Another example is the cyconium, that fascinating invention of the genus Ficus,
which is actually the entire inflorescence turned inside out. The fruits
themselves are insignificant little things on the inside which contain the tiny
seeds, if there are any.

I strongly doubt that sugar (sweet) is the main determinant of whether
something tastes fruity. This is an assertion I've seen before, though, and I
don't understand why.
Adding sugar to tomatoes, cucumbers, or squash doesn't make them taste fruity.


I think you would have to ask a food chemistry specialist about this. It is
beyond the scope of ordinary botany.
Have you tasted grape tomatoes? They contain a lot of sugar, and to me they
taste borderline "fruity."

Juniper berries sound familiar, but it is a long time since I last looked at
a juniper plant up close. Without a photo, it is hard to imagine how a cone
can look like a berry.

Junipers are found all over the world. I suggest you go and look at one.
Failing that, you can find pictures on the Web. A
HREF="http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/generic_frame.html?Juni_
com.html"Gernot Katzer's Spice Dictionary/A
shows pictures of dried juniper berries & unripe ones on the plant. In the
genus Juniperus, the female cone, when fertilized, develops a fleshy coating
with one or more seeds inside. Of course it is a fruit. Where do you think the
Magnoliophyta (flowering plants) got the idea? Your comparison of bat wings and
bird wings is an apt analogy. There are a few other conifer genera with tasty
fleshy fruits.
Technically, the yew berry is not a cone, but an aril, a seed coat. I don't
recommend eating it. Birds safely eat yew berries because they do not digest
the seeds, which are highly poisonous.

Are you saying that nobody plants oak trees with the intention of eventually
harvesting acorns from them?

I have never heard of it. Acorns are not useful as food for humans, because
eating too many damages the kidneys. Besides, it probably takes years for an
oak tree to produce a sizeable number of acorns.

I'm writing mainly for people who are familiar with fruits they find in
grocery stores, and will likely never go far beyond that. If it looks like a
fruit, smells like a fruit, tastes like a fruit, and is in the fruit section of
the produce department, they will say that it probably *is* a fruit. BRBR

So what is your point?
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Iris Cohen schreef
[...]
Another example is the cyconium, that fascinating invention of the genus
Ficus, which is actually the entire inflorescence turned inside out. The
fruits themselves are insignificant little things on the inside which
contain the tiny seeds, if there are any.

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Nitpicking time?
It is a synconium and it is turned outside in ;-)
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Juniper berries sound familiar, but it is a long time since I last
looked at a juniper plant up close. Without a photo, it is hard to imagine
how a cone can look like a berry.

Junipers are found all over the world.

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This should not be! Northern Hemisphere only (and mountains of Africa)
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I suggest you go and look at one.
Failing that, you can find pictures on the Web. A
HREF="http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/generic_frame.html?Juni_
com.html"Gernot Katzer's Spice Dictionary/A
shows pictures of dried juniper berries & unripe ones on the plant. In the
genus Juniperus, the female cone, when fertilized, develops a fleshy
coating with one or more seeds inside. Of course it is a fruit.

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It is not, but Pilger (1926) still described it as such
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[...]
Are you saying that nobody plants oak trees with the intention of
eventually harvesting acorns from them?

I have never heard of it. Acorns are not useful as food for humans,
because eating too many damages the kidneys.

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Acorns once were a staple for humans too, but they required preparation.
Gathering in the forest only. No cultivation.
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Besides, it probably takes years for an
oak tree to produce a sizeable number of acorns.
Iris,

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Decades?
PvR

Nitpicking time?
It is a synconium and it is turned outside in ;-)

We were both wrong. The spelling is syconium. What is the difference between
outside in and inside out? The flowers of a Ficus, such as they are, are inside
the inflorescence and in wild figs are pollinated by a tiny wasp.

Northern Hemisphere only (and mountains of Africa)

More nitpicking. See A
HREF="http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/cu/ju/"Juniperus description/A
According to this page, The range of the genus is primarily Northern
Hemisphere, with one species to 18 deg. South in Africa.

It is not (a fruit),

Why not? It is a receptacle for the seeds which develops from the female cone.
What else would you call it?

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

In article , [P
van Rijckevorsel] wrote...
Iris Cohen schreef
[...]

Another example is the cyconium, that fascinating invention of the genus
Ficus, which is actually the entire inflorescence turned inside out. The
fruits themselves are insignificant little things on the inside which
contain the tiny seeds, if there are any.

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Nitpicking time?
It is a synconium and it is turned outside in ;-)

One of Murphy's Laws stikes again [anyone correcting someone's
spelling or grammar will commit a similar error while doing so].
It's "syconium", with just the one "n". From the Greek "sycon",
meaning "fig", IIRC.

They are indeed invaginated [some related genera have disc-like
open inflorescences which could make a good starting point for
evolving figlike ones], with the flowers [and later, small 1-seeded
true fruits] lining the inner surface.

[Quitting now, before I become the next victim...]

[snip]

cheers

Nitpicking time?
It is a synconium and it is turned outside in ;-)

Iris Cohen schreef
We were both wrong. The spelling is syconium. What is the difference
between outside in and inside out? The flowers of a Ficus, such as they are,
are inside the inflorescence and in wild figs are pollinated by a tiny wasp.

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You are right. Very sloppy of me. I took a quick look in my botanical
dictionaries (looking in the wrong spot), could not find it and instead of
digging out the Moraceae literature took a quick stab at the internet.
You can find anything on the internet, including misspellings (google has 1
synconium for every 4 syconium's).

According to my fig book the latin is "syconium" but its english equivalent
should be "sycone". According to Google this is more popular in French than
in English ...

Apparently I am now reaching the point where I am posting too hastily and
should slow down or I might end up like Cereoid ...

As to "outside in" and "inside out", when dealing with a piece of clothing
there is no difference, but in this case the inside is still inside and was
joined by the outside.
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Northern Hemisphere only (and mountains of Africa)

More nitpicking. See A
HREF="http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/cu/ju/"Juniperus
description/A
According to this page, The range of the genus is primarily Northern
Hemisphere, with one species to 18 deg. South in Africa.

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Yes, Juniperus procera occurs in Africa, in the mountain ranges, but that is
what I said, isn't it?

This pattern of Northern Hemisphere genera crossing the equator by staying
in the mountains happens a lot. Likely Rhododendron in Australia is also
such a case.
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It is not (a fruit),

Why not? It is a receptacle for the seeds which develops from the female
cone. What else would you call it?

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Apparently it is called such things as:
"the female cones consist of three to eight fleshy, pointed scales which
coalesce and finally form a more or less globular body or 'berry'."
PvR