Hi,
I'm not an expert: therefor I came here since I believe you all are the
right people to speak to.
I'm writing a fantasy book and have to collect a reasonable amount of
information about life 200 mya.

I have to discover what plants, vegetables, grass and so on would you have
found if living there, and if they were acceptable food or was it necessary
to cook or treat it to eliminate poison.
Any other information, even ideas, or useful relevant links is very
appreciated.

Thank you very much,
Claudio

ByoBlu schreef
I'm not an expert: therefor I came here since I believe you all are the
right people to speak to. I'm writing a fantasy book and have to collect a
reasonable amount of information about life 200 mya.

+ + +
That is hard, a fantasy book requires quite a bit of information on plants
before you can develop a reasonably fantasy based on these. I am sure there
is a lot of information available, but it is a world apart. None of the
plants that are now widespread did exist then. It may well be that less than
a thousand species that did then exist has survived till now
PvR
+ + +

I have to discover what plants, vegetables, grass and so on would you
have found if living there, and if they were acceptable food or was it
necessary to cook or treat it to eliminate poison. Any other information,
even ideas, or useful relevant links is very appreciated.

Thank you very much,
Claudio

A million years ago flowering plants existed but there were no cultivated
plants yet developed by man and no modern vegetables. The ancestors of
modern vegetables would not be recognizable to the average person. Also it
would very much depend in which part of the world you were because the
ancestors of cultivated plants are from widely scattered localities. Even
the weeds would be different than they are now. Dandelions would not be the
common pest they are now.


"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message
...
ByoBlu schreef
I'm not an expert: therefor I came here since I believe you all are
the
right people to speak to. I'm writing a fantasy book and have to collect a
reasonable amount of information about life 200 mya.

+ + +
That is hard, a fantasy book requires quite a bit of information on plants
before you can develop a reasonably fantasy based on these. I am sure
there
is a lot of information available, but it is a world apart. None of the
plants that are now widespread did exist then. It may well be that less
than
a thousand species that did then exist has survived till now
PvR
+ + +

I have to discover what plants, vegetables, grass and so on would you
have found if living there, and if they were acceptable food or was it
necessary to cook or treat it to eliminate poison. Any other information,
even ideas, or useful relevant links is very appreciated.

Thank you very much,
Claudio

"ByoBlu" wrote in message . ..

Hi,
I'm not an expert: therefor I came here since I believe you all are the
right people to speak to.

I'm writing a fantasy book and have to collect a reasonable amount of
information about life 200 mya.

Since this is a question essentially about paleontology, you could
also try the newsgroup sci.bio.paleontology.

I have to discover what plants, vegetables, grass and so on would you have
found if living there, and if they were acceptable food or was it necessary
to cook or treat it to eliminate poison.
Any other information, even ideas, or useful relevant links is very
appreciated.

200 million years ago places you right smack dab in the middle of what
geologists and paleontologists call the Early Jurassic Period of the
Mesozoic Era--the age of dinosaurs. There were no grasses back
then--and flowering plants were nonexistent (although paleobotanical
discoveries keep pushing the first known flowering plant farther and
farther back in geologic time; right now, I believe the earliest
recognized flowering plant in the geologic record is somewhere around
127 million years old). Plant life was dominated by Sphenopsids
(horsetails) ferns, tree ferns, seed ferns, conifers (araucarians),
ginkgoes (still living today, of course), cycads, and cycadoids.

"Eight Miles High"--my solo, acoustic, instrumental 6-string guitar
version of the classic PopRock song made famous by The Byrds
(Clark/Hillman/Mcguinn composition)
http://members.aol.com/geowrs/music/eightmileshigh.html

"Inyo" wrote in message
om...
Since this is a question essentially about paleontology, you could
also try the newsgroup sci.bio.paleontology.

Thanks, already done.

There were no grasses back then--and flowering plants were nonexistent

Why is it so important the existance of flowering plants?

Plant life was dominated by Sphenopsids
(horsetails) ferns, tree ferns, seed ferns, conifers (araucarians),
ginkgoes (still living today, of course), cycads, and cycadoids.

Any of them could be eaten?
Do you think if someone could take with himself modern vegetables seeds,
would they grow in that clima and atmosphere composition?


"Eight Miles High"--

Very nice piece of art.
Claudio

There aren't a lot of ferns, cycads, etc. eaten today. You would be
seriously lacking protein in the absence of grains and legumes, and
quite a few ferns and fern allies are either toxic or contain enough
silica to be inedible. You hear about people eating fiddleheads, but
only from one or two species, and even then only at certain times. If
the characters in your book have time to do any research, have them
learn which few species might be edible.

Seeds of modern plants *would* grow, but you would run into problems
with those whose pollinating insects have yet to evolve. E.g., beans,
which are largely self-pollinating, might be all right, but things
like squash which have relationships with solitary bees are not going
to set fruit. Do a little research into when the different groups of
insects arose.

M. Reed

Any of them could be eaten?
Do you think if someone could take with himself modern vegetables seeds,
would they grow in that clima and atmosphere composition?

"Eight Miles High"--

Very nice piece of art.
Claudio

--
ÿWPC5

NO GRASS?!?!!?


"Inyo" wrote in message
om...
"ByoBlu" wrote in message
. ..

Hi,
I'm not an expert: therefor I came here since I believe you all are
the
right people to speak to.

I'm writing a fantasy book and have to collect a reasonable amount of
information about life 200 mya.

Since this is a question essentially about paleontology, you could
also try the newsgroup sci.bio.paleontology.

I have to discover what plants, vegetables, grass and so on would you
have
found if living there, and if they were acceptable food or was it
necessary
to cook or treat it to eliminate poison.
Any other information, even ideas, or useful relevant links is very
appreciated.

200 million years ago places you right smack dab in the middle of what
geologists and paleontologists call the Early Jurassic Period of the
Mesozoic Era--the age of dinosaurs. There were no grasses back
then--and flowering plants were nonexistent (although paleobotanical
discoveries keep pushing the first known flowering plant farther and
farther back in geologic time; right now, I believe the earliest
recognized flowering plant in the geologic record is somewhere around
127 million years old). Plant life was dominated by Sphenopsids
(horsetails) ferns, tree ferns, seed ferns, conifers (araucarians),
ginkgoes (still living today, of course), cycads, and cycadoids.

"Eight Miles High"--my solo, acoustic, instrumental 6-string guitar
version of the classic PopRock song made famous by The Byrds
(Clark/Hillman/Mcguinn composition)
http://members.aol.com/geowrs/music/eightmileshigh.html

In article ,
ByoBlu wrote:

"Inyo" wrote in message
. com...
There were no grasses back then--and flowering plants were nonexistent

Why is it so important the existance of flowering plants?

Almost all the plants you see around you these days, aside from ferns,
mosses and conifers, are flowering plants. The flowers may not be very
obvious, but they are there. Essentially all crops, including grains,
are flowering plants. The technical term is angiosperms.

Plant life was dominated by Sphenopsids
(horsetails) ferns, tree ferns, seed ferns, conifers (araucarians),
ginkgoes (still living today, of course), cycads, and cycadoids.

Any of them could be eaten?

I don't know what araucarian seeds are like, but people and other
mammals eat the seeds of other conifers, notably pine "nuts". The
seeds of ginkgoes are very tasty. The young sprouts of some ferns are
edible, but IIRC, it's not a good idea to eat a whole lot of them,
since they contain carcinogens.

Do you think if someone could take with himself modern vegetables seeds,
would they grow in that clima and atmosphere composition?

Sure, why not. Of course, it would depend on where you are. A lot of
modern vegetables won't mature where I live right now and those that
will have to be planted at the right time. I don't recall whether the
Jurassic was one of those eras with a more uniform climate than the
present, but some temperate climate vegetables won't grow in the
lowland tropics right now. As has been mentioned, vegetables which
require insect pollination will need to be hand-pollinated to set seed.

As for your story, most people are unable to identify an edible wild
plant even in areas they've lived in for decades. Even people who are
very knowledgable about an area would have a hard time in one strange
to them, and 200 Mya, with almost no familiar families of plants
around, they will starve if they expect to just drop in and eat a
vegetarian diet. Hunter-gatherers with many generations of
experimentation and experience with their climate and environment still
experienced famines. So your characters will have to eat fish,
amphibians and reptiles. Hm, skip the amphibians -- a number of modern
ones are lethally toxic. Turtle soup, perhaps, stewed mammal-like
reptile, and find out if those famous chicken-sized dinosaurs also
taste like chicken. At least you won't have to pluck them.

I don't know how you plan to get your characters to the Jurassic era,
but note that tomato seeds can pass through the human digestive system
undamaged, so a character who ate some raw tomato before time
travelling might well carry a supply of seeds without realizing it.
Watermelons too, I think. Probably other seeds but we usually don't
swallow them.

Have fun writing your story!

Monique Reed schreef
There aren't a lot of ferns, cycads, etc. eaten today.

+ + +
Probably more than you'd think,
but it might be quite a bit of work to find out:
a) which ones
b) how plentiful they were, and when
c) what equally edible relatives they once had, and when

Nobody even mentioned the micro-organismic level

As this is a 'literary' effort it might be more important to draw up a
comparison to the other books using this device, so as not to duplicate
them.
PvR

The evolution of grasses rapidly and completely changed the ecology of the
open areas by replacing most of the species previously found there and
creating grasslands (by definition). Most of the Saurians that depended on
ferns and other non-flowering plants for food would have been in serious
trouble because they would have been unable to digest grasses.


"Mike Martin" wrote in message
...
NO GRASS?!?!!?


"Inyo" wrote in message
om...
"ByoBlu" wrote in message
. ..

Hi,
I'm not an expert: therefor I came here since I believe you all are
the
right people to speak to.

I'm writing a fantasy book and have to collect a reasonable amount
of
information about life 200 mya.

Since this is a question essentially about paleontology, you could
also try the newsgroup sci.bio.paleontology.

I have to discover what plants, vegetables, grass and so on would you
have
found if living there, and if they were acceptable food or was it
necessary
to cook or treat it to eliminate poison.
Any other information, even ideas, or useful relevant links is very
appreciated.

200 million years ago places you right smack dab in the middle of what
geologists and paleontologists call the Early Jurassic Period of the
Mesozoic Era--the age of dinosaurs. There were no grasses back
then--and flowering plants were nonexistent (although paleobotanical
discoveries keep pushing the first known flowering plant farther and
farther back in geologic time; right now, I believe the earliest
recognized flowering plant in the geologic record is somewhere around
127 million years old). Plant life was dominated by Sphenopsids
(horsetails) ferns, tree ferns, seed ferns, conifers (araucarians),
ginkgoes (still living today, of course), cycads, and cycadoids.

"Eight Miles High"--my solo, acoustic, instrumental 6-string guitar
version of the classic PopRock song made famous by The Byrds
(Clark/Hillman/Mcguinn composition)
http://members.aol.com/geowrs/music/eightmileshigh.html

Hi,
I was asked a similar question when giving a class on evolutionary
botany to geology students. I first asked them to write an essay on
what they thought the vegetation was like at the time. Most gave a
pretty good description choosing to include many ferns, mosses and
liverworts. However many also included grasses, sedges and flowering
plants. The important thing about the early Jurassic period is that
flowering plants had not yet evolved. They didn't begin to evolve
until the early Cretaceous period. Grasses and Sedges would not evolve
until much later still. So in any discussion about the Jurassic period
we must think of the vegetation as consisting of the low order genera.
Many of the plants at this time, however, had recognizable present day
forms such as ferns, ginkgos, and conifers. Geological evidence points
to 5 different types of Biomes during this period.

*Cool Temperate Biome
This biome had low species diversity. It is estimated that there were
only 70 Genera represented by more than 120 species. Vegetation
consisted of the following:
+Ginkgos – Species similar to modern Ginkgo biloba
+Macrophyllous (Large Leaved) Conifers e.g. Pinnaceae and Voltziales
+Ferns – Species similar to modern day Dryopteris, Pteridium,
Asplenium and tree ferns
+Sphenopsids


*Warm Temperate Biome
This biome had high species diversity. It is estimated that there were
200 genera represented by 500 species. Vegetation consisted of the
following:
+Ferns
+Spenopsids
+Macrophyllous Cycads and Conifers such as Pinnacaea, Taxadiaceae, and
Podocarpaceae
+Ginkgos to a lesser extent

*Winter Wet Biome
This biome was rather similar to the modern day Mediterranean climate.
Many of the plants in this biome have similar modern day species as
those found in the low order genera found in the Mediterranean.
Vegetation consisted of the following:
+Microphyllous Cycads
+Microphyllous Bennettites e.g Williamsonia
+Conifers
+Some Ferns
+Spenopsids

*Subtropical Desert Biome
No vegetation present

*Summer Wet Biome
+Microphyllous Bennettites
+Numerous ferns, including Weichselia
+Microphyllous Conifers such as Cupressaceae and Podocarpacaea
+Cycads were rare.
+Ginkgos and Conifers were absent

Just how are your characters getting to the Jurassic period? Please
don't hesitate to ask me for any further info. If I can I'll try to
answer them.

wrote in message ...
In article ,
ByoBlu wrote:

"Inyo" wrote in message
. com...
There were no grasses back then--and flowering plants were nonexistent

Why is it so important the existance of flowering plants?

Almost all the plants you see around you these days, aside from ferns,
mosses and conifers, are flowering plants. The flowers may not be very
obvious, but they are there. Essentially all crops, including grains,
are flowering plants. The technical term is angiosperms.

Plant life was dominated by Sphenopsids
(horsetails) ferns, tree ferns, seed ferns, conifers (araucarians),
ginkgoes (still living today, of course), cycads, and cycadoids.

Any of them could be eaten?

I don't know what araucarian seeds are like, but people and other
mammals eat the seeds of other conifers, notably pine "nuts". The
seeds of ginkgoes are very tasty. The young sprouts of some ferns are
edible, but IIRC, it's not a good idea to eat a whole lot of them,
since they contain carcinogens.

Do you think if someone could take with himself modern vegetables seeds,
would they grow in that clima and atmosphere composition?

Sure, why not. Of course, it would depend on where you are. A lot of
modern vegetables won't mature where I live right now and those that
will have to be planted at the right time. I don't recall whether the
Jurassic was one of those eras with a more uniform climate than the
present, but some temperate climate vegetables won't grow in the
lowland tropics right now. As has been mentioned, vegetables which
require insect pollination will need to be hand-pollinated to set seed.

As for your story, most people are unable to identify an edible wild
plant even in areas they've lived in for decades. Even people who are
very knowledgable about an area would have a hard time in one strange
to them, and 200 Mya, with almost no familiar families of plants
around, they will starve if they expect to just drop in and eat a
vegetarian diet. Hunter-gatherers with many generations of
experimentation and experience with their climate and environment still
experienced famines. So your characters will have to eat fish,
amphibians and reptiles. Hm, skip the amphibians -- a number of modern
ones are lethally toxic. Turtle soup, perhaps, stewed mammal-like
reptile, and find out if those famous chicken-sized dinosaurs also
taste like chicken. At least you won't have to pluck them.

I don't know how you plan to get your characters to the Jurassic era,
but note that tomato seeds can pass through the human digestive system
undamaged, so a character who ate some raw tomato before time
travelling might well carry a supply of seeds without realizing it.
Watermelons too, I think. Probably other seeds but we usually don't
swallow them.

Have fun writing your story!

wrote in message
.. .
I don't know how you plan to get your characters to the Jurassic era,
but note that tomato seeds can pass through the human digestive system
undamaged, so a character who ate some raw tomato before time
travelling might well carry a supply of seeds without realizing it.
Watermelons too, I think. Probably other seeds but we usually don't
swallow them.

This is fantastic. Someone could bring with him tomatoes without knowing it.
And they could find tomatoes seeds in some character's personal "bag"!! )

Surely a botanist will take part to the expedition.
Is anyone of you all willing to be that one?


Claudio


Have fun writing your story!

"ByoBlu" wrote in message . ..
Hi,
I'm not an expert: therefor I came here since I believe you all are the
right people to speak to.
I'm writing a fantasy book and have to collect a reasonable amount of
information about life 200 mya.

I have to discover what plants, vegetables, grass and so on would you have
found if living there, and if they were acceptable food or was it necessary
to cook or treat it to eliminate poison.
Any other information, even ideas, or useful relevant links is very
appreciated.

Thank you very much,
Claudio

As others mentioned, in the Jurassic era, you would be restricted to
seedless plants (mosses, liverworts, hornworts, ferns, club mosses,
equisetums) and gymnosperms (ginkgo, conifers, cycads, gnetophytes).

Ginkgo seeds, pine seeds and other gymnosperm tree seeds are edible.
They might be your major staple crops.

Pine seeds are often called pine "nuts" or pignolias and are sold in
supermarkets today. The USDA database listed says pignolias (Pinus
pinea) have 13.69% protein by weight, which is a good deal of protein.
They also contain 68.37% fat and about 13% carbohydrate.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Raw gingko seeds contain 37.6% carbohydrate, 4.32% protein and 1.68%
fat.

Aborigines used seeds of bunya bunya (Araucaria bidwillii) as a major
food source.

http://farrer.riv.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/APOL8/dec97-3.html

South American natives used seeds of Monkey puzzle tree (Araucaria
araucana) as a staple food.

http://www.victorialodging.com/monkey_puzzle_tree.htm

Starch can be obtained from the stems of certain cycads, such as Zamia
floridana, which once provided arrowroot starch sold in supermarkets.
The USDA database says arrowroot flour contains 88.15% carbohydrate.
Cycads contain toxic substances so the starch may have had to be
treated before use. Cycad seeds and roots also have been used as food
sources.

Cycad toxicities:
http://plantnet.rbgsyd.gov.au/PlantNet/cycad/ethn.html

The Native American Ethnobotany database lists their uses of native
plants. Many conifers were used as food including,
The sap of sugar pine (Pinus lambertiana).
The sugar-rich inner bark of pines.
Young "male" or microsporangiate cones of white pine (Pinus strobus).
White pine bark was used to make a beverage.

http://herb.umd.umich.edu/

Native Americans also ate mosses as famine foods.

Young fiddleheads of some ferns (Ostrich fern - Matteuccia
struthiopteris) are edible but others are carcinogenic (Bracken fern
-Pteridium aquilinum).

http://museum.gov.ns.ca/poison/bracken.htm

The fleshy arils surrounding the seeds of yew (Taxus spp.) are edible
but the seeds and other parts are toxic.

http://www.enature.com/fieldguide/sh...&recnum=TS0061

The seeds of plum yew (Cephalotaxus spp.) are edible.

http://www.floridata.com/ref/C/ceph_har.cfm


If you obtained a list of conifer scientific names, you could probably
find a lot of conifer species with edible seeds or other parts.

There are some Jurassic gardens in existence:
http://www.earthmuseum.segs.uwa.edu....rassic_gardens

Juniper seeds are used to flavor gin so you probably could ferment
some cycad starch and make alcohol.

wrote in news:2004Jun24.153431.4829
@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu:

reptile, and find out if those famous chicken-sized dinosaurs also
taste like chicken. At least you won't have to pluck them.

Don't be so sure. Do a search on 'dinosaur feathers' and you will turn
up stuff like (not the same as the Feb2000 National Geographic hoax):

http://www.scientificamerican.com/pr...leID=000A87F9-
9FD8-1C5E-B882809EC588ED9F

Dinosaur Discovery Shows Feathers Came Before Flight

An exquisitely complete feathered dinosaur has emerged from the famed
fossil beds of northeastern China's Liaoning Province. The new discovery,
announced today in the journal Nature, gives further weight to the
argument that birds evolved from dinosaurs and provides the strongest
evidence yet that feathers pre-date the origin of flight.

....

Not only that, they would have been mostly dark meat with much smaller
breasts. :-(

Take that you dinosaur plucker.
Who would want to pluck a velociraptor anyway?
Good luck trying to catch one before it catches you!!!


"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
...
wrote in news:2004Jun24.153431.4829
@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu:

reptile, and find out if those famous chicken-sized dinosaurs also
taste like chicken. At least you won't have to pluck them.

Don't be so sure. Do a search on 'dinosaur feathers' and you will turn
up stuff like (not the same as the Feb2000 National Geographic hoax):

http://www.scientificamerican.com/pr...leID=000A87F9-
9FD8-1C5E-B882809EC588ED9F

Dinosaur Discovery Shows Feathers Came Before Flight

An exquisitely complete feathered dinosaur has emerged from the famed
fossil beds of northeastern China's Liaoning Province. The new discovery,
announced today in the journal Nature, gives further weight to the
argument that birds evolved from dinosaurs and provides the strongest
evidence yet that feathers pre-date the origin of flight.

...