In article , wrote:
In article ,
Phred wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

White sweet potatoes seem to be the most popular kinds in Korea and Japan.
The Korean greengrocers here all stock them and no other kinds. The ones
I see all have red skin. I find them dry and bland tasting, much inferior
to the usual moist orange or yellow fleshed kind, but perhaps in Korean
and Japanese cuisine they are prepared in a way that takes advantage of
the difference in culinary properties.

The sweet bucks of my childhood (grown by my uncle and cooked with the
roast chook for that special Sunday dinner -- at midday, in the
tropics, for crissake! ) had a slightly greenish tinge internally
when cooked and a very slightly "stringy" texture (more visual than
physical). I don't remember their skin colour, but they were
*delicious* with a crisp outer shell from the oven roasting. :-)

Interesting. IIRC, white sweet potatoes are sometimes recommended as a
substitute for "real" potatoes (Solanum tuberosum) in climates too hot to
grow the latter. They are a bit similar -- dry and starchy.

I've got a patch of the orange fleshed kind in the backyard here; but
I admit they're basically just going wild (and doing it very tough due
to high temperatures and no rain) and I rarely think to harvest some
for a feed.

They are very nutritious -- extremely high in carotenes. I cook them
whole in a covered container in the microwave and eat them hot or cold
with salt and pepper. The very moist kind, with "melting" texture, are
especially good this way.

When you say "whole", do you mean unpeeled, or just uncut?
Roughly what size do you use, and how long to cook? (As you can see,
you've got me thinking about a harvest. ;-)

I'm told by a bloke who was breeding them here that the very sweet,
orange types are often used as a sweet (e.g. in desserts) in other
parts of the world; but it's not a common way of using them here in Oz
AFAIK.

They are sometimes "candied", i.e. peeled, cut into chunks and baked in
a way that coats them with a sugary glaze, in the southern US. They
can also be used to make sweet potato pies, by substituting mashed
sweet potato for pumpkin or squash in a pumpkin pie recipe.

(A little more ethnobotany for non-North Americans: a pumpkin pie is
made by baking a mix of pureed squash (Cucurbita moschata or C.maxima
is generally better for this than C.pepo), milk, eggs, molasses and
spices like cinnamon and ginger with only a lower crust. For a

I have to admit, I'd never have thought of molasses in that.

healthier version, cut back on the eggs, use low fat milk and skip the
crust entirely. By not using a crust, you not only avoid loads of fat
but you can "bake" it in the microwave. Pumpkin pies are often served
with whipped cream or vanilla ice cream, but you can certainly skip
that as well.)

Wot? I would have thought the pie would just be a convenient base for
those edibles!


Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

FORGOT TO MENTION. ive had sweet potatoes sliced as thin julienne's then
deep fried and powdered lightly with powdered sugar, Served on holidays
they are delicious. A Vietnamese treat I enjoy.

Chuck


"Phred" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
In article ,
Phred wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

White sweet potatoes seem to be the most popular kinds in Korea and
Japan.
The Korean greengrocers here all stock them and no other kinds. The
ones
I see all have red skin. I find them dry and bland tasting, much
inferior
to the usual moist orange or yellow fleshed kind, but perhaps in Korean
and Japanese cuisine they are prepared in a way that takes advantage of
the difference in culinary properties.

The sweet bucks of my childhood (grown by my uncle and cooked with the
roast chook for that special Sunday dinner -- at midday, in the
tropics, for crissake! ) had a slightly greenish tinge internally
when cooked and a very slightly "stringy" texture (more visual than
physical). I don't remember their skin colour, but they were
*delicious* with a crisp outer shell from the oven roasting. :-)

Interesting. IIRC, white sweet potatoes are sometimes recommended as a
substitute for "real" potatoes (Solanum tuberosum) in climates too hot to
grow the latter. They are a bit similar -- dry and starchy.

I've got a patch of the orange fleshed kind in the backyard here; but
I admit they're basically just going wild (and doing it very tough due
to high temperatures and no rain) and I rarely think to harvest some
for a feed.

They are very nutritious -- extremely high in carotenes. I cook them
whole in a covered container in the microwave and eat them hot or cold
with salt and pepper. The very moist kind, with "melting" texture, are
especially good this way.

When you say "whole", do you mean unpeeled, or just uncut?
Roughly what size do you use, and how long to cook? (As you can see,
you've got me thinking about a harvest. ;-)

I'm told by a bloke who was breeding them here that the very sweet,
orange types are often used as a sweet (e.g. in desserts) in other
parts of the world; but it's not a common way of using them here in Oz
AFAIK.

They are sometimes "candied", i.e. peeled, cut into chunks and baked in
a way that coats them with a sugary glaze, in the southern US. They
can also be used to make sweet potato pies, by substituting mashed
sweet potato for pumpkin or squash in a pumpkin pie recipe.

(A little more ethnobotany for non-North Americans: a pumpkin pie is
made by baking a mix of pureed squash (Cucurbita moschata or C.maxima
is generally better for this than C.pepo), milk, eggs, molasses and
spices like cinnamon and ginger with only a lower crust. For a

I have to admit, I'd never have thought of molasses in that.

healthier version, cut back on the eggs, use low fat milk and skip the
crust entirely. By not using a crust, you not only avoid loads of fat
but you can "bake" it in the microwave. Pumpkin pies are often served
with whipped cream or vanilla ice cream, but you can certainly skip
that as well.)

Wot? I would have thought the pie would just be a convenient base for
those edibles!


Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

In article , (Iris Cohen) wrote:
If someone is offering something for sale called a yam, be sure it is Dioscorea
batatas. There are some varieties of Ipomoea batatas, the sweet potato, which
are sold as yams. Both species are edible, but they probably taste different.
Your so-called purple yam is probably a sweet potato. Be assured it is edible.
The purple color is simply anthocyanin, like the color in purple cabbage. It
will probably dissolve in the water or turn color if you cook it. In this
country there is a big, sweet, orange-fleshed sweet potato which is often sold
as a yam.

Thanks for your response, Iris.

Yeah, my yam is certainly _Dioscorea_ sp. I presume _D. batatas_, but
I haven't really checked it out seriously, and web pages seem to be up
to their usual conflicting advice. :-) For example, for this species
we find:

From: http://www.bihrmann.com/caudiciforms/subs/dio-bat-sub.asp
It [_D. batatas_] can stand frost down to -18 C.

From:
http://www.clematis.com.pl/wms/wmsg.php/321.html&plant_number=165
It’s not fully hardy, hence before winter it’s advisable to cover an
area of about 100cm in diameter around the plant with e.g. bark mulch
thus creating an isolation layer that will help protect the roots.

From: http://florawww.eeb.uconn.edu/acc_num/198700196.html
USDA Zone: 5

Mind you, this conflict could be my problem, not reality! 8-)
To a tropical lad, -18C is *bloody* cold for horticulture, so that
"not fully hardy" in the second ref sounds like a bunch of
codswallops! (And, come to that, I don't know what "USDA Zone 5"
means in that .edu ref. Presumably it confirms or refutes one of the
others, if not both?

[ Later: Hmm... Okay. Before Celluloid had a coronary over my
laissez faire I thought I'd better do a google... It seems those refs
may be pretty consistent after all. USDA Zone 5 (5a and 5b) are
*very* bloody cold for tropical lads!
http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/hzm-ne1.html
So what the hell do you call "fully hardy"? Sounds like hell has
already frozen over to me. :-) ]

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

In article , "Chuck" wrote:
FORGOT TO MENTION. ive had sweet potatoes sliced as thin julienne's then
deep fried and powdered lightly with powdered sugar, Served on holidays
they are delicious. A Vietnamese treat I enjoy.

Yeah. The breeder I mentioned earlier has occasionally done similar
things with his lines of orange sweet bucks for the benefit of his
deserving colleagues.

In that case, they were presented as "chips" analogous to potato chips
(the "thin slice" supermarket style) with salt and/or other seasoning,
not with sugar. Went down very well with cold beer on a hot day. :-)


Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

can stand frost down to -18 C.

That's 0 in Fahrenheit. Pretty cold. We would consider that USDA Zone 7, so you
are getting conflicting information. Zone 5 means an average minimum winter
temperature of -10 to -20 F, or about -23 to -28 C.

So what the hell do you call "fully hardy"? That means neither the top
nor the roots will die during an average winter in that zone. I think what your
references mean is that the yam is fully hardy in Zone 7, but in Zone 5, the
top will die over the winter, and the roots will survive with a little added
protection. In Temperate zones, it often helps to find out where the frost line
is. Here in Zone 5 in Central NY, the average frost depth is about 36 inches (I
think), but it can vary depending on your soil type.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra

Cucurbita moschata or C.maxima is generally better for this than C.pepo
What is the difference? Which is the big round orange thing usually called a
pumpkin?. Isn't that what they sell in a can?
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra

When you say "whole", do you mean unpeeled, or just uncut?
Roughly what size do you use, and how long to cook? (As you can see,
you've got me thinking about a harvest.

Sweet potatoes may be cooked whole with the skins on, which is how they are
cooked in the microwave. The skin is edible & probably good for you. However,
when you microwave them whole, you have to stab them to the center to keep them
from exploding. Size doesn't matter, except it is easier to cook several nearly
the same size. Length of time depends on your microwave. Look at the
instructions.

I'd never have thought of molasses in that.

Neither did I. Standard recipe calls for plain sugar or brown sugar.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra

Thanks for your responses, Iris.

I find the thought of frost to 36" more than a little frightening!
Around here, a bad frost kills things to ground level; less severe
ones just scorch the canopy. We're pretty much at the limit of frost
incidence in NE Oz and probably wouldn't get any at all except for
being on a low tableland.

I recall being in St Paul/Minneapolis in ... April? ... many years
ago, and thought I'd found the perfect climate -- until my host
pointed out there had been about 5 feet of snow in the Uni staff car
park not many weeks earlier. I was chilled just thinking about it!

In article ,
(Iris Cohen) wrote:
can stand frost down to -18 C.

That's 0 in Fahrenheit. Pretty cold. We would consider that USDA Zone 7, so you
are getting conflicting information. Zone 5 means an average minimum winter
temperature of -10 to -20 F, or about -23 to -28 C.

So what the hell do you call "fully hardy"? That means neither the top
nor the roots will die during an average winter in that zone. I think what your
references mean is that the yam is fully hardy in Zone 7, but in Zone 5, the
top will die over the winter, and the roots will survive with a little added
protection. In Temperate zones, it often helps to find out where the frost line
is. Here in Zone 5 in Central NY, the average frost depth is about 36 inches (I
think), but it can vary depending on your soil type.

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

In article ,
Phred wrote:
In article , wrote:

I've got a patch of the orange fleshed kind in the backyard here; but
I admit they're basically just going wild (and doing it very tough due
to high temperatures and no rain) and I rarely think to harvest some
for a feed.

They are very nutritious -- extremely high in carotenes. I cook them
whole in a covered container in the microwave and eat them hot or cold
with salt and pepper. The very moist kind, with "melting" texture, are
especially good this way.

When you say "whole", do you mean unpeeled, or just uncut?
Roughly what size do you use, and how long to cook? (As you can see,
you've got me thinking about a harvest. ;-)

Life is too short to spend it peeling vegetables. You can scoop the
flesh out of the skin when you eat them, or just go ahead and eat the
skin. Fibre is *good* for you, it's not just laziness, right? ;-)

Unfortunately only the most fervent and dedicated can grow sweet
potatoes in Ontario, except for a few favored locations, so I have to
buy them. I try to get them less than 8cm or so diameter so they'll
cook faster, but size doesn't really matter, as long as it's fairly
uniform. How long? Hm. 10 minutes on high and then check them and
give them another 5 or 10 minutes if they are still hard in the
center? Something like that.

IIRC, in this climate it's necessary to mature the dug roots by keeping
them warm (over 80F - 27C) for a few weeks, or they won't develop full
flavour or keep well, but this may be only because the soil is pretty
cold by the time they are dug. It may not be necessary in a more
appropriate climate.

(A little more ethnobotany for non-North Americans: a pumpkin pie is
made by baking a mix of pureed squash (Cucurbita moschata or C.maxima
is generally better for this than C.pepo), milk, eggs, molasses and
spices like cinnamon and ginger with only a lower crust. For a

I have to admit, I'd never have thought of molasses in that.

Pumpkin pie is really quite a different food than squash cooked as a
vegetable. Look up some recipes and try it some time, with either
squash or sweet potato. A good source of recipes for *anything* is
www.cooks.com. Note that in the US, sweet potatoes are often called
yams.

Using molasses with squash probably goes back to the use of maple syrup
or maple sugar by the North American native people who grew
squash and beans long before European contact. A lot of "traditional
American" recipes are derived from native foods, with molasses substituted
for maple sugar and pork fat substituted for bear fat, e.g. Boston baked
beans. Ditto for many uses of maize. Molasses became a staple in the
northeastern US when it was one of the main trade items in the commercial
circuit that moved manufactured goods from England, slaves from Africa,
sugar, molasses and rum from the West Indies and dried codfish and lumber
from New England and eastern Canada around the North Atlantic.

In article ,
Iris Cohen wrote:
Cucurbita moschata or C.maxima is generally better for this than C.pepo
What is the difference? Which is the big round orange thing usually called a
pumpkin?. Isn't that what they sell in a can?

There are four domesticated species of Cucurbita grown in North America
and at least three of them have cultivars that produce fruits that look
like the traditional pumpkin, and are called pumpkins here. The other
cultivars produce fruits that are called squash in this part of the
world, but in some others, e.g. Jamaica, all Cucurbita fruits are
called pumpkins.

None of the four species cross, but the Japanese have some sterile
hybrids of C.moschata and C.maxima. I tried making this cross and got
fruits full of empty seeds, but I often get a lot of empty seeds
anyway in normal fruits, probably because my season is so short.

There are clear botanical differences which are easy to see once you
know what to look for. I used to have a list of them with proper
technical terminology, but I'll try to wing it here. If someone can
point me to better descriptions, I'd appreciate it.

C.mixta -- I don't know much about this one since it doesn't grow in
this climate, and doesn't appear to be in international commerce.
Cultivars are sometimes called cushaws or cushaw pumpkins.

C.moschata -- The most common cultivar is the butternut squash, but
there are others, including some of the "cheese pumpkins" named for
their shape, resembling a large wheel of cheese. There are some
Japanese cultivars with other sizes and shapes. IIRC, commercial
canned pumpkin is made from a large pumpkin-shaped cultivar of this
species. The leaves are relatively small and somewhat fuzzy. The
seeds are small and have a thin shell. The stems and petioles are hard
and very resistant to squash vine borer. The flesh is orange.

C.maxima -- Most of the large squashes are in this species, e.g.
hubbards and hubbard types, as well as buttercups, Turk's turban,
banana squashes, and both big pumpkins and huge ones like the Hungarian
and Atlantic Giants. They have bigger leaves and spongy porous hollow
stems that are very attractive to squash vine borers. The seeds are
large and have a thick but not hard white shell. The flesh is usually
dark orange and has a "melting" (i.e. moist and not stringy) character
although some Japanese cultivars have a drier, flaky sort of flesh.

C.pepo -- Most summer squashes, e.g. zucchini, pattypans and crooknecks
are in this species, as are acorn (aka pepper) squashes, vegetable
spaghetti, delicata squash and many of the small ornamental gourds and
mini pumpkins. Some have persistent silver markings on the leaves.
This is the only species, AFAIK, that has the trait for a real "bush"
habit, i.e. extremely short internodes, although most cultivars other than
summer squash don't have it, and there are so-called bush varieties of
the other species that are just short vined rather than short in the
internodes. The flesh is usually relatively pale, yellow rather than
orange and the seeds are small and hard shelled.

You can distinguish the species in the supermarket by examining the
peduncle where it attaches to the fruit. Unfortunately, I can't
describe this correctly, although I can see it. If you compare this
area in fruits that you know the species of, e.g. a butternut, a
buttercup and an acorn squash, you'll see what I mean.

Resistance to squash vine borer is very important to me
since it's a major pest here. While it's not as much a problem with
zucchini (C.pepo) as with C.maxima, I was delighted to find a
C.moschata cultivar, Tromboncino Rampicante. which makes a good zucchini
substitute immature, but is kind of stringy as a winter squash. I gave
some to my neighbours, and it seems to have crossed with normal
butternuts, and they now grow these monster meter-and-longer tubular
butternut looking squash. I don't know what they do with them, but I
see them in back yards at some distance from mine.

Before I close this excessively long essay about one of the plants I
most enjoy growing, I'd like to ask my world-wide audience whether
they've ever seen a butternut squash with a netted green pattern
overlaying the usual tan color. I bought one at a supermarket last
winter and grew it out this year. It seems to be reasonably early,
productive and healthy in my climate, and I wonder where it came from.
The bin at the store had other squashes labelled as coming from
Nicaragua and New Zealand, so this squash could have come from very far
away. Since I participate in seed exchanges, I'd like to acquire more
information if available.

(Btw, squashes cross (within species) very promiscuously and over
considerable distance, so if you want to save seed, you pretty much
have to hand pollinate, which means getting up before the bees and
taping closed the flowers that are about to open that day and waiting
until about 10am to perform the cross. You also have to contend with
bumblebees that will chew their way into your taped flowers. In my
climate, at least, cucurbits set a lot more fruit than the plant is
willing to grow to maturity, so you may have to do a lot of crosses to
get even a few fruits with good seeds. Squash aren't as bad as melons
this way, but if you have a short season, do the crosses as early as
possible, so you'll have plenty of chances. The latest set fruit are
most likely to abort, IME.

Paradoxically, the squash you buy in the supermarket probably come from
the middle of large fields of the same cultivar, so you are pretty sure
to get trueness to type from a squash you buy. Except for some of the
pepo squashes, e.g. acorn crossed with zucchini or ornamental gourds,
you'll likely get something as edible as its seed parent, so go for
it. Be adventurous. Enjoy genetic diversity and grow funny looking
vegetables!)

In article ,
Phred wrote:

One of the local supermarkets has recently been flogging another type
of yam and, judging by how clean the things are, I suspect they might
actually be edible aerial tubers in this case. Pale buff skin and
pure white flesh with even a suggestion of translucence. The texture
is light and crisp -- rather "refreshing" eaten raw, but bugger all
flavour. (Rather like the tubers of _Pachyrhizus tuberosa_ in fact.)

Could be jicama, P. erosus, which is in the Fabaceae, or maybe P.erosus
is really P.tuberosus, with the error propagated around the web. At any
rate it's a popular vegetable in Mexico and adjacent parts of the US and
answers this description, especially if it's sort of vertically flattened.
Recently it's become popular as a salad ingredient in California new
cuisine, so the yuppies are creating a demand for it, and it's in all the
supermarkets here.

There seem to be a lot of Dioscorea yam cultivars. I don't know if they
are all D.batatas. There are a lot of people in Toronto from the West
Indies and Central America, and the supermarkets carry yams of many types
and colors. All the ones I've seem have been sort of rough and shaggy,
not smooth as you describe. There are probably culinary differences since
stores normally carry several kinds if they carry any.

I find the thought of frost to 36" more than a little frightening!

One gets used to it. Remember up in Zones 1 &2 they have Permafrost. That is
why conservationists are so opposed to drilling for oil in the Arctic. The
permanently frozen ground ecology is extremely fragile.

I recall being in St Paul/Minneapolis in ... April? ... many years ago, and
thought I'd found the perfect climate -- until my host pointed out there had
been about 5 feet of snow in the Uni staff car park not many weeks earlier. I
was chilled just thinking about it!

Snicker! Central NY is not quite a bad as Minnesota. We average 119" of snow.
However, we do have four seasons (count them) of varying lengths, average only
4 days a summer over 90 F. We have no hurricanes, tidal waves, forest fires, or
earthquakes. Unfortunately, we do have the most polluted lake on the continent,
which they are slowly trying to redeem. And we have some very nice scenery,
even more spectacular in the Adirondacks, and famous autumn foliage.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra

In article , wrote:
In article ,
Phred wrote:

One of the local supermarkets has recently been flogging another type
of yam and, judging by how clean the things are, I suspect they might
actually be edible aerial tubers in this case. Pale buff skin and
pure white flesh with even a suggestion of translucence. The texture
is light and crisp -- rather "refreshing" eaten raw, but bugger all
flavour. (Rather like the tubers of _Pachyrhizus tuberosa_ in fact.)

Could be jicama, P. erosus, which is in the Fabaceae, or maybe P.erosus
is really P.tuberosus, with the error propagated around the web. At any
rate it's a popular vegetable in Mexico and adjacent parts of the US and
answers this description, especially if it's sort of vertically flattened.
Recently it's become popular as a salad ingredient in California new
cuisine, so the yuppies are creating a demand for it, and it's in all the
supermarkets here.

Yeah. They are "sort of vertically flattened", so maybe they are as
you suggest. I've only eaten _P. tuberosa_ tubers dug out of a local
yard, and they were pretty dirty. :-) So I rather assumed these
really clean things from the supermarket must have been an aerial
organ, and we had been discussing _Dioscorea_ "bulbils" around the
smoko table not long before. (In fact a colleague had brought some in
for us to try -- from a form known to be edible of course. 8-)

There seem to be a lot of Dioscorea yam cultivars. I don't know if they
are all D.batatas. There are a lot of people in Toronto from the West
Indies and Central America, and the supermarkets carry yams of many types
and colors. All the ones I've seem have been sort of rough and shaggy,
not smooth as you describe. There are probably culinary differences since
stores normally carry several kinds if they carry any.

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

In article , (Iris Cohen) wrote:
I find the thought of frost to 36" more than a little frightening!

One gets used to it. Remember up in Zones 1 &2 they have Permafrost. That is
why conservationists are so opposed to drilling for oil in the Arctic. The
permanently frozen ground ecology is extremely fragile.

I recall being in St Paul/Minneapolis in ... April? ... many years ago, and
thought I'd found the perfect climate -- until my host pointed out there had
been about 5 feet of snow in the Uni staff car park not many weeks earlier. I
was chilled just thinking about it!

Snicker! Central NY is not quite a bad as Minnesota. We average 119" of snow.
However, we do have four seasons (count them) of varying lengths, average only
4 days a summer over 90 F. We have no hurricanes, tidal waves, forest fires, or
earthquakes.

How boring! ;-)

Unfortunately, we do have the most polluted lake on the continent,

That's some consolation I guess.

which they are slowly trying to redeem. And we have some very nice scenery,
even more spectacular in the Adirondacks, and famous autumn foliage.

Our "autumn foliage" tends to be just brown, dry, and dead -- and
usually is seen mostly in late spring/early summer when it's
bloody hot as well as dry before the first storms of the wet season.
(Mind you, not much more than 10 or 15 km away per crow there are
mountains covered with tropical rainforest -- but that's just green
all year. Boring. ;-)

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

The weather in Syracuse is NEVER boring. We can have a temperature drop of 30
degrees in half a day, or 60 deg. in a day & a half. (Fahrenheit degees are
smaller than Centigrade.)
We get more rainbows than other parts of the country, and occasionally Northern
Lights. We once had something, I forget what they called it, which is a tornado
that doesn't turn (Killed two people). And have you ever seen graupel, even in
Minnesota? Graupel is snow that falls as miniature snowballs. And we get nice
warm sun in summer without so much coastal humidity. But if my grandchildren
weren't here, I would still move to a warmer climate.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra