On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 06:51:38 CST, DavidM
wrote:

You have to lets us get excited about things like this, we have so few
interesting insects in the UK

We are getting a greater variety of insects as the temperature
increases. I'm not sure it's all good news!

--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software Ltd

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.

http://www.easynn.com

This is all very interesting!
I read once where there are still millions of
buggy species still needing to be identified.

Let us know if you find out any more information
or something pops up in the news.

k :-)

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:35:33 CST, kthirtya wrote:

This is all very interesting!
I read once where there are still millions of
buggy species still needing to be identified.
...

Sorry, but this reminded me of a question I used to be asked fairly
often by non-cavers: "Exactly how many undiscovered caves are there?"
I didn't have a cute quip then and I still haven't come up with one.
--
Galen Hekhuis
I can't recall...

Went looking and found ~

entomologists estimate that over 800,000 insect species have been named and described since Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778) founded the modern system of nomenclature (genus and species) for all plants and animals...Discovery of a new species of vertebrate is a rare event -- only a handful have been found in the past 20 years.* But millions of undiscovered insect species are still hiding in the soil, in the canopies of tropical rain forests, and even right in our own backyards.* Entomologists describe hundreds of these new species each year, and still estimate that only one-half to one-third of the earth's total insect fauna has even yet been discovered.* In the final analysis, two of every three living species may be insects.
from:
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent4...t01/index.html

kinda makes you feel all creepy crawly!

k :-)

Galen, did you ever come across 'cave insects',
adapted to living in the dark? Or other cave
critters like that - such as fish in underground pools (in
an attempt to keep this in the watery topic
area).

k :-)

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:43:23 CST, kthirtya wrote:

Galen, did you ever come across 'cave insects',
adapted to living in the dark? Or other cave
critters like that - such as fish in underground pools (in
an attempt to keep this in the watery topic
area).

k :-)

Many of them have lost not only eyesight, but also pigmentation. Some
of them have become blind, albino cousins of their same kind that live
on the surface. Others are largely unchanged from those who dwell
outside a cave. There are blind, albino fish, crayfish, spiders,
centipedes, just oodles of things running around in caves. I don't
want to make it sound like a garden environment, it isn't. There
isn't much in the way of nutrients in a cave per se, those that are
there have to be washed in by water or carried into the cave. There
are beetles that live their whole lives in caves, but survive on the
droppings of bats, which must exit the cave to find their nutrition.
It has been discovered, somewhat recently, that there are several
kinds of bacteria that seem to be capable of transforming elements (in
this case, sulphur) directly into energy, without requiring any
external light input. (Well, I think it is pretty remarkable,
anyway.) These bacteria may have played a greater role in cave
development than water, in some cases. There are also some examples
of food chains based on these same bacteria, but I digress. At first
glance, a cave looks like a sterile environment. There is no light
whatsoever, there is nothing growing, just water and rocks and mud.
Surely nothing could survive there. But then there are
speleobiologists and several many universities giving advanced degrees
in speleobiology (speleo meaning "cave" in Greek) so there must be
something to study.
--
Galen Hekhuis
"Mistakes were made"

speleobiologists

Who'd have thought!
I'm in awe of people who can go into
caves, and then underwater in caves.

I can't read a book about the hero going
into a cave without getting uncomfortable
and being so glad I'm not in there with
him!

Nature is amazingly adaptive.

k :-)

There have been two science shows on caves so far that I use in class.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/caves/extremophiles.html
As a microbiologist by training I am fascinated with archeabacteria
(the old ones) and the extremophiles, like those found in caves.
The story begins at the sulfur plumes at the bottom of oceans where
chemilithotrophs (rock feeding) bacteria use sulfur to get some high
energy electrons to make ATP, they use the ATP to convert CO2 into
glucose. The whole cycle does not use photosynthesis or oxygen. IN
FACT, bacteria like this are at the bottoms of poorly oxygenated ponds
that create a sulfurous stinking mess and toxic gases.
Caves like Lechuguilla are filled with hydrogen sulfide and methane
made by bacteria even lower down in the soil that are working away at
organic deposits that are now oil.
Our ponds are little scale models of the original conditions, and
anybody who has had to clean out a badly crudded up pond finds the
oily like gunk on the bottom.
Our ponds are also little scale ecosysytems if there is algae. the
bacteria feed on the algae, the itty bitty critters (protista) feed on
the bacteria and our fish feed on the protistas.
http://weloveteaching.com/hopepond/m...g/microbug.htm
http://weloveteaching.com/hopepond/m...g/macrobug.htm
Ingrid

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:05:32 CST, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:
It has been discovered, somewhat recently, that there are several
kinds of bacteria that seem to be capable of transforming elements (in
this case, sulphur) directly into energy, without requiring any
external light input. (Well, I think it is pretty remarkable,
anyway.) These bacteria may have played a greater role in cave
development than water, in some cases. There are also some examples
of food chains based on these same bacteria, but I digress. At first
glance, a cave looks like a sterile environment. There is no light
whatsoever, there is nothing growing, just water and rocks and mud.
Surely nothing could survive there. But then there are
speleobiologists and several many universities giving advanced degrees
in speleobiology (speleo meaning "cave" in Greek) so there must be
something to study.

On Tue, 1 May 2007 07:53:42 CST, wrote:

There have been two science shows on caves so far that I use in class.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/caves/extremophiles.html
As a microbiologist by training I am fascinated with archeabacteria
(the old ones) and the extremophiles, like those found in caves.
The story begins at the sulfur plumes at the bottom of oceans where
chemilithotrophs (rock feeding) bacteria use sulfur to get some high
energy electrons to make ATP, they use the ATP to convert CO2 into
glucose. The whole cycle does not use photosynthesis or oxygen. IN
FACT, bacteria like this are at the bottoms of poorly oxygenated ponds
that create a sulfurous stinking mess and toxic gases.
Caves like Lechuguilla are filled with hydrogen sulfide and methane
made by bacteria even lower down in the soil that are working away at
organic deposits that are now oil.
Our ponds are little scale models of the original conditions, and
anybody who has had to clean out a badly crudded up pond finds the
oily like gunk on the bottom.
Our ponds are also little scale ecosysytems if there is algae. the
bacteria feed on the algae, the itty bitty critters (protista) feed on
the bacteria and our fish feed on the protistas.
http://weloveteaching.com/hopepond/m...g/microbug.htm
http://weloveteaching.com/hopepond/m...g/macrobug.htm
Ingrid

Those are great links. You may also want to check out
http://www.teachersdomain.org/resour...map/index.html
for a more general introduction to solution caves in general. I have
a book on the discovery and exploration of Lechuguilla ("little
lettuce") Cave which I can loan to you if you send me your postal
address. I can go on and on about caves, so I guess further
discussion ought to be carried on via email, lest some folks think
this is rec.caves.moderated or something. :^)
--
Galen Hekhuis
"Mistakes were made"

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:05:32 CST, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:

At first
glance, a cave looks like a sterile environment. There is no light
whatsoever, there is nothing growing, just water and rocks and mud.
Surely nothing could survive there.

I'm glad we have you to tell us about it, because I would never find
out by exploring.

Regards,

Hal