The bulldozer and front end loader got finished and now what once was a 40
ft small tree lined wet garbage dump (sort of a pond) is now a 40 foot in
diameter mud puddle with an average depth of about 3 feet. I don't think
the water is *too* polluted because as the thing got cleared out the
landscape people found a bunch of frogs, turtles, and at least two
cottonmouth snakes, one being about 5 feet long. That was a little
exciting for me, but the guy on the bulldozer didn't seem too impressed,
and he made rather short work of the snake with his bulldozer blade. I
guess those folks are quite used to running into snakes. Anyway, I looked
at pumps and filters for large ponds and found that about the largest I
could find was for about a 5000 gal pond, and it seems mine is a bit larger
than that. I don't have any illusions about having crystal clear water
flowing in the pond, but it seems to me that constantly moving the water
through some sort of filter would eventually change it from being just a
mud puddle into something a little more eye appealing. Would circulating
the water through a series of "settling tanks" (coarse gravel, fine gravel,
then something like sand) be of any use? Are there plants that I can ring
my mud puddle with that would help? I live in northern Florida, so brutal
winters are not exactly a problem but I also don't want to go down in
history as the guy who planted something like kudzu around his pond, only
to have it escape and become a serious pest. Also, do those "barley ball"
and other "pond treatments" I see advertised do any good?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

Your ****ing in the wind if your going to even think about filtering a
natural mud bottom pond especially when you consider whaty a mud
bottom pond is......the mud in y our pond is the key to your ponds
naturally occuriing biological filter system all proovided by naature
nothing else other than aeration needs to be done. .Aerate it like
many other have posted, keep excessive nutrient loads from runoff to a
minimum or non existent, and let it go at that. There is no plants
your gonna be able to plant aorund or in the pond that will not take
over and become invasive in a natural pond......If you need something
for algae, then you have excessive nutrients.......probably from
runoff water.......or lack or or insufficient aeration.......or
both......ALgae blooms in this sectin of the o****ry is the norm, so
every bit yu can do to knock down nutrients and provide aeration will
be iportant....YOur wasteing money with the barley crap, get some
Baraclear and be done with it...
Just what did you do with all this info you were provided previously
on numerous accounts ......eat it or?
You make the same posts asking the same questions over and
over........evidently the answers you were given does not fit your
budget or desires or you would have implemented them by now.



sheeeeeeesssssssssssh

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:40:09 -0500, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:
The bulldozer and front end loader got finished and now what once was a 40
ft small tree lined wet garbage dump (sort of a pond) is now a 40 foot in
diameter mud puddle with an average depth of about 3 feet. I don't think
the water is *too* polluted because as the thing got cleared out the
landscape people found a bunch of frogs, turtles, and at least two
cottonmouth snakes, one being about 5 feet long. That was a little
exciting for me, but the guy on the bulldozer didn't seem too impressed,
and he made rather short work of the snake with his bulldozer blade. I
guess those folks are quite used to running into snakes. Anyway, I looked
at pumps and filters for large ponds and found that about the largest I
could find was for about a 5000 gal pond, and it seems mine is a bit larger
than that. I don't have any illusions about having crystal clear water
flowing in the pond, but it seems to me that constantly moving the water
through some sort of filter would eventually change it from being just a
mud puddle into something a little more eye appealing. Would circulating
the water through a series of "settling tanks" (coarse gravel, fine gravel,
then something like sand) be of any use? Are there plants that I can ring
my mud puddle with that would help? I live in northern Florida, so brutal
winters are not exactly a problem but I also don't want to go down in
history as the guy who planted something like kudzu around his pond, only
to have it escape and become a serious pest. Also, do those "barley ball"
and other "pond treatments" I see advertised do any good?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
I don't have any illusions about having crystal clear water
flowing in the pond, but it seems to me that constantly moving the water
through some sort of filter would eventually change it from being just a
mud puddle into something a little more eye appealing.
================================
If it looks like a "mud puddle" and isn't very attractive I'd plant water
lilies. They'll spread and bloom giving you color. They'll also shade the
water, starving the algae. Have you thought of Lotus? They can really get
carried away but are beautiful.

Some type of floating waterpump (so it doesn't clog quickly) with a few
foamers would help keep it from getting stagnant and turning into a mosquito
breeding pit.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:51:45 GMT, (Roy) wrote:

Your ****ing in the wind if your going to even think about filtering a
natural mud bottom pond especially when you consider whaty a mud
bottom pond is......the mud in y our pond is the key to your ponds
naturally occuriing biological filter system all proovided by naature
nothing else other than aeration needs to be done. .Aerate it like
many other have posted, keep excessive nutrient loads from runoff to a
minimum or non existent, and let it go at that.

Maybe "filtering" isn't the exact word. There is stuff that I can see
floating in the pond -- no amount of aeration or something like that is
going to get rid of it -- ever. This isn't just your typical
hole-dug-in-the-ground type of pond, there was junk in it before, and now
some of it is floating. I know that several many cities take in their
water from a river or lake, use it, treat it (often involving settling
tanks), and then return it to the body of water they drew it from. In many
cases the "treated" water is actually much cleaner than it was when it was
withdrawn. I was wondering if I might do something similar, although on a
much smaller scale. I have no expectation of getting rid of the mud at the
bottom, and this is a far cry from anything like a natural pond.

There is no plants
your gonna be able to plant aorund or in the pond that will not take
over and become invasive in a natural pond

On one web page I visited they recommended something like cattails,
although they suggested growing them in pots to keep them from spreading.
I have three ponds on the property here, the front one has a fair number of
cattails growing naturally, I could easily get them from there. They have
not spread to the back pond, nor do they appear likely to spread to the
"pond" I'm working on, I just wondered if looking into plants was at all
worthwhile. Again, I think you may have overlooked that I have said this
is NOT a "natural" (whatever that is) pond.

......If you need something
for algae, then you have excessive nutrients.......probably from
runoff water

I have very little runoff water, as far as water that drains directly into
the "pond." However, I do have a fair amount of water that gets into the
"pond" from underground. The hole is below the local water table, if I
don't constantly pump it out, it fills up from just the ground water. I'd
say it gets about 90% full in about a week, and then within two weeks it
tracks the level of the local water table fairly closely. If I have a
puddle 20 feet from the pond after a rain, I can pretty much guarantee that
most of the water will wind up in the "pond," although it doesn't drain
into it above ground. I've been a cave explorer for some 40 years now, and
know a little bit about underground hydrology. (The whole Suwannee River
valley and its tributaries are among the finest areas for underwater
speleology in the entire world.)

.......or lack or or insufficient aeration.......or
both.....

How much aeration do you consider sufficient for this size pond?

.ALgae blooms in this sectin of the o****ry is the norm, so
every bit yu can do to knock down nutrients and provide aeration will
be iportant....

I don't think I have ever said anything about algae blooms.

YOur wasteing money with the barley crap, get some
Baraclear and be done with it...

"Baraclear" sounds like a trade name. Is there a generic name or are there
some special ingredients?

Just what did you do with all this info you were provided previously
on numerous accounts ......eat it or?

I've only made a few posts to this group since this summer, a few people
have responded and I have appreciated it. I've been posting as work
progresses and when I have been unable to find any answers to my questions
through my own research. I'm sorry you find these so irritating.

You make the same posts asking the same questions over and
over........evidently the answers you were given does not fit your
budget or desires or you would have implemented them by now.

sheeeeeeesssssssssssh

A technique I have found helpful in my years on Usenet is to sit on my
hands when I see a posting in a group that I find silly or offensive. If I
feel I need to say something personal to a person I generally use their
email address, which I always provide. Assuming that is my intent, of
course.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:05 -0600, "Koi-lo"
wrote:


"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
.. .
I don't have any illusions about having crystal clear water
flowing in the pond, but it seems to me that constantly moving the water
through some sort of filter would eventually change it from being just a
mud puddle into something a little more eye appealing.
================================
If it looks like a "mud puddle" and isn't very attractive I'd plant water
lilies. They'll spread and bloom giving you color. They'll also shade the
water, starving the algae. Have you thought of Lotus? They can really get
carried away but are beautiful.

Thanks. There are a bunch of water lilies growing out in the front pond, I
can grab some and transplant them. Is there anything special I need to
watch out for? I had thought Lotus might be far too demanding for my
somewhat neglectful type of care.

Some type of floating waterpump (so it doesn't clog quickly) with a few
foamers would help keep it from getting stagnant and turning into a mosquito
breeding pit.

Either mosquitoes don't bother me much or we don't seem to have as many
here as I expected when I moved here. In any event, I've got a 3000 gal/hr
pump sucking up water (through a screen-type wastebasket) at one end and
the discharge hose almost at the other end, my intent to be to get as much
movement as I can, considering. The screen on the wastebasket on the pump
will admit stuff that is about 1/4 inch or less, even though the pump is
supposed to handle solids up to 3/8 inch. On the discharge side I have the
water running down one of the "banks" of the "pond." What type of
"floating" water pump would you recommend?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:05 -0600, "Koi-lo"
wrote:


"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
. ..
I don't have any illusions about having crystal clear water
flowing in the pond, but it seems to me that constantly moving the water
through some sort of filter would eventually change it from being just a
mud puddle into something a little more eye appealing.
================================
If it looks like a "mud puddle" and isn't very attractive I'd plant water
lilies. They'll spread and bloom giving you color. They'll also shade
the
water, starving the algae. Have you thought of Lotus? They can really
get
carried away but are beautiful.

Thanks. There are a bunch of water lilies growing out in the front pond,
I
can grab some and transplant them. Is there anything special I need to
watch out for? I had thought Lotus might be far too demanding for my
somewhat neglectful type of care.

Lotus need no care in a pond with a soil bottom. They're not demanding
unless you grow them in pots or tubs. They'll grow around the edges mainly
where the water is shallower. Their booms are breathtaking! You can plant
the water lilies where the water is deeper, in the middle.

Some type of floating waterpump (so it doesn't clog quickly) with a few
foamers would help keep it from getting stagnant and turning into a
mosquito
breeding pit.

Either mosquitoes don't bother me much or we don't seem to have as many
here as I expected when I moved here. In any event, I've got a 3000
gal/hr
pump sucking up water (through a screen-type wastebasket) at one end and
the discharge hose almost at the other end, my intent to be to get as much
movement as I can, considering.

If the pump doesn't clog with silt and leaves that should help. Keep if off
the bottom if possible. If mosquitoes do become a problem you can add some
cheap feeder goldfish or even cheaper rosy reds.

The screen on the wastebasket on the pump
will admit stuff that is about 1/4 inch or less, even though the pump is
supposed to handle solids up to 3/8 inch. On the discharge side I have
the
water running down one of the "banks" of the "pond." What type of
"floating" water pump would you recommend?

If it's running down the bank it'll probably keep your pond muddy, unless
the bank is rock. Since I don't use these type of floating pumps I can't
recommend any particular brand. I see them floating and spraying in small
ponds here in TN. It appears they're on some kind of floating platform
anchored in the place they're to stay. I have no idea what kind of filter
is attached to them to keep "junk" from being sucked in. You can call your
Agricultural Extension Agent for someone in your county who would know.
Sorry I can't be of any more help.....
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Like I stated before there is NOTHING that yu can actually plant in a
mud bottom pond especially in your local and not expect it to become
envasive, be it lotus, lillies and certainly cat tails.......Its
virtually impossible to keep any plant constrained within the limits
of a pot or container when its in a natural pond...


Maybe you did not say anything about algae blooms, but its inevitable
yur gonna get them its the nature of the beast so aeration and
baraclear and keeping run off minimixed is the solution to future
problems, once spring/ summer kicks in. A lot of the stuff thats
floating will settle and sink, and become biological filter material,
so don;t get concerned with it. Make the floating fountain and set
back and watch.......There is not much yu can do to stop natural
occuring things from happening nor is there much yu can do to solve
your questions without spending a heap of money for equipment and also
exhorant operating expenses...which I gather from your prevous posts
your barely able to run or afford some items which were
suggested.......Just take a look at a pond in that area where lilys
are growing wild and its just solid surface cover, no water at all and
within a year ro two it will be one masive heavily infested
pond....with whatever you planted...

Koi-lo has about as much experieince with a natural poknd and what to
plant in it as I do performing brain surgery as a profession......

Perhaps a few lilys ina large wash tub near the edge that you can tend
to properly and keep an eye on and aeration in the form of a floating
fountain.........is about it....The rest thats gonna happen is gonna
happen with or without your intervention as to algae, critters, debri,
runoff etc etc...
Baraclear P80 is a aluminum sulfate mix in a sodium bentonite pellet,
that locks up phosphates which are key to algae growth.......There is
no reason not to expect good water visibility if aeration and
nutrients are taken care of......I can readily see 4 to 6 feet deep in
relatively clean clear water in my natural ponds here without a
problem any time of the year, and my zone is what your zone is in
regards to temperatures and environmental issues........I would even
dose the pond with a strong dose of potassium permangante to oxidize
or basically sterilize any crap that may still be in there and
eliminate anay nutrients you already have....It certainly does not
take much runoff to gain a heap of nutrients, and I am sure you have
some runoff around that pond coming from sonewhere expeicially with
the gulley washers this area receives, and the crap hurricanes and
winds all carry in as well, as winds are just about as bad as lots of
water runoff when it comes to adding nutrients to a pond.....YOur
against the odds without filtration, so you have to make do with whats
been proven. YOur water is not all that deep so its gonna get warmed
up quicker, yet another reason for aeration.......

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:47:18 -0500, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:51:45 GMT, (Roy) wrote:

Your ****ing in the wind if your going to even think about filtering a
natural mud bottom pond especially when you consider whaty a mud
bottom pond is......the mud in y our pond is the key to your ponds
naturally occuriing biological filter system all proovided by naature
nothing else other than aeration needs to be done. .Aerate it like
many other have posted, keep excessive nutrient loads from runoff to a
minimum or non existent, and let it go at that.

Maybe "filtering" isn't the exact word. There is stuff that I can see
floating in the pond -- no amount of aeration or something like that is
going to get rid of it -- ever. This isn't just your typical
hole-dug-in-the-ground type of pond, there was junk in it before, and now
some of it is floating. I know that several many cities take in their
water from a river or lake, use it, treat it (often involving settling
tanks), and then return it to the body of water they drew it from. In many
cases the "treated" water is actually much cleaner than it was when it was
withdrawn. I was wondering if I might do something similar, although on a
much smaller scale. I have no expectation of getting rid of the mud at the
bottom, and this is a far cry from anything like a natural pond.

There is no plants
your gonna be able to plant aorund or in the pond that will not take
over and become invasive in a natural pond

On one web page I visited they recommended something like cattails,
although they suggested growing them in pots to keep them from spreading.
I have three ponds on the property here, the front one has a fair number of
cattails growing naturally, I could easily get them from there. They have
not spread to the back pond, nor do they appear likely to spread to the
"pond" I'm working on, I just wondered if looking into plants was at all
worthwhile. Again, I think you may have overlooked that I have said this
is NOT a "natural" (whatever that is) pond.

......If you need something
for algae, then you have excessive nutrients.......probably from
runoff water

I have very little runoff water, as far as water that drains directly into
the "pond." However, I do have a fair amount of water that gets into the
"pond" from underground. The hole is below the local water table, if I
don't constantly pump it out, it fills up from just the ground water. I'd
say it gets about 90% full in about a week, and then within two weeks it
tracks the level of the local water table fairly closely. If I have a
puddle 20 feet from the pond after a rain, I can pretty much guarantee that
most of the water will wind up in the "pond," although it doesn't drain
into it above ground. I've been a cave explorer for some 40 years now, and
know a little bit about underground hydrology. (The whole Suwannee River
valley and its tributaries are among the finest areas for underwater
speleology in the entire world.)

.......or lack or or insufficient aeration.......or
both.....

How much aeration do you consider sufficient for this size pond?

.ALgae blooms in this sectin of the o****ry is the norm, so
every bit yu can do to knock down nutrients and provide aeration will
be iportant....

I don't think I have ever said anything about algae blooms.

YOur wasteing money with the barley crap, get some
Baraclear and be done with it...

"Baraclear" sounds like a trade name. Is there a generic name or are there
some special ingredients?

Just what did you do with all this info you were provided previously
on numerous accounts ......eat it or?

I've only made a few posts to this group since this summer, a few people
have responded and I have appreciated it. I've been posting as work
progresses and when I have been unable to find any answers to my questions
through my own research. I'm sorry you find these so irritating.

You make the same posts asking the same questions over and
over........evidently the answers you were given does not fit your
budget or desires or you would have implemented them by now.

sheeeeeeesssssssssssh

A technique I have found helpful in my years on Usenet is to sit on my
hands when I see a posting in a group that I find silly or offensive. If I
feel I need to say something personal to a person I generally use their
email address, which I always provide. Assuming that is my intent, of
course.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:24:38 GMT, (Roy) wrote:

Like I stated before there is NOTHING that yu can actually plant in a
mud bottom pond especially in your local and not expect it to become
envasive, be it lotus, lillies and certainly cat tails.......Its
virtually impossible to keep any plant constrained within the limits
of a pot or container when its in a natural pond...


Maybe you did not say anything about algae blooms, but its inevitable
yur gonna get them its the nature of the beast so aeration and
baraclear and keeping run off minimixed is the solution to future
problems, once spring/ summer kicks in. A lot of the stuff thats
floating will settle and sink, and become biological filter material,
so don;t get concerned with it. Make the floating fountain and set
back and watch.......There is not much yu can do to stop natural
occuring things from happening nor is there much yu can do to solve
your questions without spending a heap of money for equipment and also
exhorant operating expenses...which I gather from your prevous posts
your barely able to run or afford some items which were
suggested.......

I didn't mean to give that impression. I spent over a grand getting the
"pond" cleaned up and a little over 300 for the pump and hose I got. I
realize a heap of money may vary from place to place, but I'm willing to
sink at least that much into things now, which seems to be about what one
of those deluxe waterfall/pump/uv/filter/faux lava rock kits runs. I sure
don't need all that.

Just take a look at a pond in that area where lilys
are growing wild and its just solid surface cover, no water at all and
within a year ro two it will be one masive heavily infested
pond....with whatever you planted...

I'd have to disagree with that, at least in my (short) experience here.
Along my drive into town I pass a pond that looks like it has been there
for years. It has a pretty good crop of water lilies in it. I've driven
by it for over a year now. It hasn't become overrun with lilies yet.
There is a rowboat there, so maybe they row out and get rid of some of the
lilies, though I've never seen the people who live there do that. Anyway,
I have a kayak, and I'm not afraid to use it.

Koi-lo has about as much experieince with a natural poknd and what to
plant in it as I do performing brain surgery as a profession......

Perhaps a few lilys ina large wash tub near the edge that you can tend
to properly and keep an eye on and aeration in the form of a floating
fountain.........is about it....The rest thats gonna happen is gonna
happen with or without your intervention as to algae, critters, debri,
runoff etc etc...
Baraclear P80 is a aluminum sulfate mix in a sodium bentonite pellet,
that locks up phosphates which are key to algae growth.......There is
no reason not to expect good water visibility if aeration and
nutrients are taken care of......I can readily see 4 to 6 feet deep in
relatively clean clear water in my natural ponds here without a
problem any time of the year, and my zone is what your zone is in
regards to temperatures and environmental issues........I would even
dose the pond with a strong dose of potassium permangante to oxidize
or basically sterilize any crap that may still be in there and
eliminate anay nutrients you already have....

Is that stuff you can throw in all at once or do you need to kind of
dispense it in, perhaps in the waterfall water?

It certainly does not
take much runoff to gain a heap of nutrients, and I am sure you have
some runoff around that pond coming from sonewhere expeicially with
the gulley washers this area receives, and the crap hurricanes and
winds all carry in as well, as winds are just about as bad as lots of
water runoff when it comes to adding nutrients to a pond.....YOur
against the odds without filtration, so you have to make do with whats
been proven. YOur water is not all that deep so its gonna get warmed
up quicker, yet another reason for aeration.......

As far as hurricanes go I was surprised to find that I actually lived in a
*less* hurricane prone area in Dunnellon (SW of Ocala, where I lived before
coming here) than up in North Carolina, where my brother lives. Right here
seems to be one of the least likely to be hit by a hurricane along the
whole Gulf or Florida coasts. I have noticed some pretty hefty rains,
though.

So do you recommend the type of water jet type fountain, kind of like a
lawn sprinkler, or is it preferable to have a waterfall type?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
..
Koi-lo
If the pump doesn't clog with silt and leaves that should help. Keep if
off
the bottom if possible. If mosquitoes do become a problem you can add
some
cheap feeder goldfish or even cheaper rosy reds.

I've got a bunch of those mosquito eating minnows in my back pond, I guess
I'll be moving a bunch up to this pond. I'm not much of a fish person,
the
real name of the fish I think starts with a "g." My brother was down here
and pointed them out. They must work pretty well; I sure don't notice
many
mosquitoes back there.

Perhaps you have gambusia. Whatever works. :-))

I would think that after
water runs down a bank for several months it would have washed away all
the
mud it could, but maybe not.

It will keep washing away the soil until it hits pure clay or rock.

As far as calling someone goes, I'm afraid that is not an option for me.
I
have something called primary lateral sclerosis (it is sometimes called a
"gentler and kinder" form of ALS, or Lou Gehrig's Disease) and I have
pretty much lost my ability to talk (at least so people can understand
me),
let alone walk. I still drive a mean kayak, however, my upper body
strength seems unaffected.

I'm sorry to hear that. :-( Perhaps you can have a friend or relative
make the call for you?!?!?! There may be a website they maintain (the Ag
dept.) where you can ask questions. Meanwhile keep active with that kayak!
:-)

Hey, you've been a big help. I don't expect everyone to have all the
answers every time, there is no need to be sorry about it. I ask some
pretty basic and stupid (and repetitious, so I've been told) questions
that
could probably be cleared up with a simple phone call. But here I get to
ask a bunch of people all at once, and anyway, I think my questions are a
bit more on topic than some of the folks discussing evolution, or
religion,
or whatever...

Yes, your questions are on-topic. Keep asking as there will always be
someone willing to answer you.

--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:27:47 -0500, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:24:38 GMT, (Roy) wrote:

Like I stated before there is NOTHING that yu can actually plant in a
mud bottom pond especially in your local and not expect it to become
envasive, be it lotus, lillies and certainly cat tails.......Its
virtually impossible to keep any plant constrained within the limits
of a pot or container when its in a natural pond...


Maybe you did not say anything about algae blooms, but its inevitable
yur gonna get them its the nature of the beast so aeration and
baraclear and keeping run off minimixed is the solution to future
problems, once spring/ summer kicks in. A lot of the stuff thats
floating will settle and sink, and become biological filter material,
so don;t get concerned with it. Make the floating fountain and set
back and watch.......There is not much yu can do to stop natural
occuring things from happening nor is there much yu can do to solve
your questions without spending a heap of money for equipment and also
exhorant operating expenses...which I gather from your prevous posts
your barely able to run or afford some items which were
suggested.......

I didn't mean to give that impression. I spent over a grand getting the
"pond" cleaned up and a little over 300 for the pump and hose I got. I
realize a heap of money may vary from place to place, but I'm willing to
sink at least that much into things now, which seems to be about what one
of those deluxe waterfall/pump/uv/filter/faux lava rock kits runs. I sure
don't need all that.

Just take a look at a pond in that area where lilys
are growing wild and its just solid surface cover, no water at all and
within a year ro two it will be one masive heavily infested
pond....with whatever you planted...

I'd have to disagree with that, at least in my (short) experience here.
Along my drive into town I pass a pond that looks like it has been there
for years. It has a pretty good crop of water lilies in it. I've driven
by it for over a year now. It hasn't become overrun with lilies yet.
There is a rowboat there, so maybe they row out and get rid of some of the
lilies, though I've never seen the people who live there do that. Anyway,
I have a kayak, and I'm not afraid to use it.


You stated your pond is somewhere around 3 or so feet deep.....prime
water depth for lilys. I have em all over the shallopw areas of my
pond, but once the water depth gets over 6 feet or so, thats when they
stop......
Koi-lo has about as much experieince with a natural poknd and what to
plant in it as I do performing brain surgery as a profession......

Perhaps a few lilys ina large wash tub near the edge that you can tend
to properly and keep an eye on and aeration in the form of a floating
fountain.........is about it....The rest thats gonna happen is gonna
happen with or without your intervention as to algae, critters, debri,
runoff etc etc...
Baraclear P80 is a aluminum sulfate mix in a sodium bentonite pellet,
that locks up phosphates which are key to algae growth.......There is
no reason not to expect good water visibility if aeration and
nutrients are taken care of......I can readily see 4 to 6 feet deep in
relatively clean clear water in my natural ponds here without a
problem any time of the year, and my zone is what your zone is in
regards to temperatures and environmental issues........I would even
dose the pond with a strong dose of potassium permangante to oxidize
or basically sterilize any crap that may still be in there and
eliminate anay nutrients you already have....

Is that stuff you can throw in all at once or do you need to kind of
dispense it in, perhaps in the waterfall water?

Just roughly figure out your surface area, and throw the pellets out
in the water. After a 2 or 3 week period of time hit it
again......then you can go to a maintenance dose which is a much
smaller amount. Its good stuff and will not harm any plants or fish or
other wildlife. Its used by the tons in the lagoons and golf courses
in florida and other southern areas to keep water cleaned up and algae
free.
take much runoff to gain a heap of nutrients, and I am sure you have
some runoff around that pond coming from sonewhere expeicially with
the gulley washers this area receives, and the crap hurricanes and
winds all carry in as well, as winds are just about as bad as lots of
water runoff when it comes to adding nutrients to a pond.....YOur
against the odds without filtration, so you have to make do with whats
been proven. YOur water is not all that deep so its gonna get warmed
up quicker, yet another reason for aeration.......

As far as hurricanes go I was surprised to find that I actually lived in a
*less* hurricane prone area in Dunnellon (SW of Ocala, where I lived before
coming here) than up in North Carolina, where my brother lives. Right here
seems to be one of the least likely to be hit by a hurricane along the
whole Gulf or Florida coasts. I have noticed some pretty hefty rains,
though.

YOu still get winds that carry junk and deposit it, and it drops out
of the atmosphere.......YOu may be basicially hurricane sheltered but
the atmosphere around you has the nasty stuff in it and it drops,
usually in areas with lesser winds...I had all kinds of nasty stuff
from Huricane Opal back in the late 90's and again from Ivan. Opan was
not a real danger to this areas like Ivan was but my pond turned red
like the red tide within 2 days after the hurricane passed long
by.......and our winds were barely over 30 mph and we got no
rain....Same thing with Ivan plus other damages due to winds....but no
place is free of whats dropped from the atmosphere that winds carry
aloft and drop with changing weather conditions.

So do you recommend the type of water jet type fountain, kind of like a
lawn sprinkler, or is it preferable to have a waterfall type?

You can make or buy a floating type pump / fountain. They use a
submersible pump with good head capacity and pressure output. They
have various nozzles you can make or buy, and they can be anchored
inplace by weights and a rope......draws about 4.5 amps of power and
is sufficient for 1/2 acre to 1 acre ponds........It keeps the surface
aerated and the spray helps keep water cooler as well....Look up Kasco
Fountains for a basic floating fountain setup. If your handy you can
make a comparable fountain to what they sell for 7 to 900 bucks for a
bit under $150 and thats using the pump they use. A standard
submersible pump typically used in koi ponds or the typical sump pump
even if its submersible will not cut it. The koi pond submersibles do
not have sufficicient water pressure for these fountains and the sump
type pumps are not made for continuous use.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

"I have very little runoff water, as far as water that drains directly into
the "pond." However, I do have a fair amount of water that gets into the
"pond" from underground. The hole is below the local water table, if I
don't constantly pump it out, it fills up from just the ground water. I'd
say it gets about 90% full in about a week, and then within two weeks it
tracks the level of the local water table fairly closely. "

Hi Galen,
This sounds like the key to your success right here. My brother-in-law has
a pond that is about two acres on his farm. It has no pumps or artificial
filters of any kind. I don't think he has ever had to add any type of
chemical either. What he did is simply this: He installed and overflow
pipe in the end oposite where the spring head is. It's set about an inch
or so below the natural level of the water table of his pond. This brings
in enough fresh water to purge any excessive nutrients, and also acts as a
skimmer to keep the top clean of dead insects, pollen, dust, leaves and
other small debris. He started with a small 4" pipe, but had to replace it
once because it clogged. Since the installation of a 6" pipe, he has had
no problems.
This is no kiddie pond either. It's big enough to take a row boat out on.
Some of the fish he catches from it are good for citations or dinner,
whatever you choose. And no need for intense treatment, equipment, energy
waste or labor once it's done. The pond will act as the settling tank with
the slow exchange of water. Nature will find her balance, if you give her
a chance. That big pump you have is just stirring up the muck. The
biofilter will naturally occur on it's own. But the bottom has to settle,
and you have to give that natural water a place to go. Prefferably a close
by natural stream.
Hope this helps. I wish I had your setup. It would save me thousands in
trying to recreate it artificially.

Respectfully,

--
Kevin

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:24:38 GMT, (Roy) wrote:
I would even
dose the pond with a strong dose of potassium permangante to oxidize
or basically sterilize any crap that may still be in there and
eliminate anay nutrients you already have....

Is that stuff you can throw in all at once or do you need to kind of
dispense it in, perhaps in the waterfall water?
========================
Before you use Potassium Permanganate please look it up on the net. You can
simply Google it or check out www.koivet.com. This can be a dangerous
product to handle and use. Do NOT breathe the powder! Keep it off your
skin and you must also know the gallonage of your pond to dose it safely.
BE CAREFUL!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Mid posted.
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:13:18 -0600, "Koi-lo"
wrote:


"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:32:05 -0600, "Koi-lo"
wrote:


"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
I don't have any illusions about having crystal clear water
flowing in the pond, but it seems to me that constantly moving
the water through some sort of filter would eventually change it
from being just a mud puddle into something a little more eye
appealing.
================================
If it looks like a "mud puddle" and isn't very attractive I'd
plant water lilies. They'll spread and bloom giving you color.
They'll also shade the
water, starving the algae. Have you thought of Lotus? They can
really get
carried away but are beautiful.

Thanks. There are a bunch of water lilies growing out in the front
pond, I
can grab some and transplant them. Is there anything special I
need to watch out for? I had thought Lotus might be far too
demanding for my somewhat neglectful type of care.

Lotus need no care in a pond with a soil bottom. They're not
demanding unless you grow them in pots or tubs. They'll grow around
the edges mainly where the water is shallower. Their booms are
breathtaking! You can plant the water lilies where the water is
deeper, in the middle.

Far out. I'll try some of them.

Some type of floating waterpump (so it doesn't clog quickly) with
a few foamers would help keep it from getting stagnant and turning
into a mosquito
breeding pit.

Either mosquitoes don't bother me much or we don't seem to have as
many here as I expected when I moved here. In any event, I've got
a 3000 gal/hr
pump sucking up water (through a screen-type wastebasket) at one
end and the discharge hose almost at the other end, my intent to be
to get as much movement as I can, considering.

If the pump doesn't clog with silt and leaves that should help.
Keep if off the bottom if possible. If mosquitoes do become a
problem you can add some cheap feeder goldfish or even cheaper rosy
reds.

I've got a bunch of those mosquito eating minnows in my back pond, I
guess I'll be moving a bunch up to this pond. I'm not much of a fish
person, the real name of the fish I think starts with a "g."

I think the "g" is the start of gambusia. I believe they are technically
called mosquito fish as a common name. Wonderful tough little fish and they
really eat mosquito larvae. I bred some indoors once when I was young, my
first success with fish a long time ago. Mosquito fish are perfect for ponds
in my area as the temperature here is almost always mild. I've even seen
mosquito fish in the artificial (I think) stream outside the death valley,
california, usa visitor center and I never saw any mosquitos in that area.
Strangely enough I have seen allot of mosquitos at another death valley
location which had no open water that I know of. I prefer fancy guppies
indoors though, much more colorful but outdoors the mosquito fish's
temperature range is superior. Good luck and later!


My
brother was down here and pointed them out. They must work pretty
well; I sure don't notice many mosquitoes back there.

The screen on the wastebasket on the pump
will admit stuff that is about 1/4 inch or less, even though the
pump is supposed to handle solids up to 3/8 inch. On the discharge
side I have the
water running down one of the "banks" of the "pond." What type of
"floating" water pump would you recommend?

If it's running down the bank it'll probably keep your pond muddy,
unless the bank is rock. Since I don't use these type of floating
pumps I can't recommend any particular brand. I see them floating
and spraying in small ponds here in TN. It appears they're on some
kind of floating platform anchored in the place they're to stay. I
have no idea what kind of filter is attached to them to keep "junk"
from being sucked in. You can call your Agricultural Extension
Agent for someone in your county who would know. Sorry I can't be of
any more help.....

There are no rocks on this property at all. There isn't even a
pebble that I've found. It seems like there is only clay and sand,
but mostly clay, or mud when it is wet. I know if you go down deep
enough here there is limestone, there are limestone outcroppings and
stuff all along the Suwannee River, which is only about three miles
from here. This is kind of a plateau, at 145 feet above sea level it
is some of the highest ground around, but it is flat and doesn't
drain well. I would think that after water runs down a bank for
several months it would have washed away all the mud it could, but
maybe not.

As far as calling someone goes, I'm afraid that is not an option for
me. I have something called primary lateral sclerosis (it is
sometimes called a "gentler and kinder" form of ALS, or Lou Gehrig's
Disease) and I have pretty much lost my ability to talk (at least so
people can understand me), let alone walk. I still drive a mean
kayak, however, my upper body strength seems unaffected.

Hey, you've been a big help. I don't expect everyone to have all the
answers every time, there is no need to be sorry about it. I ask some
pretty basic and stupid (and repetitious, so I've been told)
questions that could probably be cleared up with a simple phone call.
But here I get to ask a bunch of people all at once, and anyway, I
think my questions are a bit more on topic than some of the folks
discussing evolution, or religion, or whatever...

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of
the future

I've got a bunch of those mosquito eating minnows in my back pond, I guess
I'll be moving a bunch up to this pond. I'm not much of a fish person, the
real name of the fish I think starts with a "g."

Probably gambusia.

As far as calling someone goes, I'm afraid that is not an option for me. I
have something called primary lateral sclerosis (it is sometimes called a
"gentler and kinder" form of ALS, or Lou Gehrig's Disease) and I have
pretty much lost my ability to talk (at least so people can understand me)

We have a ponder in our club with similar. Only he still can talk slowly.
Runs around in a motorized wheel chair. His upper body strength is devoted
to feeding his koi, and he has some BIG ones. :-)

Hey, you've been a big help. I don't expect everyone to have all the
answers every time, there is no need to be sorry about it. I ask some
pretty basic and stupid (and repetitious, so I've been told) questions that
could probably be cleared up with a simple phone call.

The nice thing about text, you can always refer back to it. I have a lot of
stuff on here from different posters over the years that I've put a lock on
(Agent Forte' users know what I mean) so they don't get deleted.

Believe me, it is a welcome sight to see a new *ponding* person post in
here. ) ~ jan

--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

http://www.kascomarine.com/

Dig those 4 color lighted fountains, now that would be way cool. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a