I may not use the proper terminology, but if anyone can make heads or tails
out of this and responds or tells me where I can find more information I
sure would appreciate it.

There seems to be a sort of local water table with respect to ponds. To
put it one way, if you dig a hole in the ground and fill it with water will
the water drain out? If it does, the hole must be above the local water
table. If it fills up with water by itself while you are fussing with the
hose to try to fill it up, I'd say the hole is well below the local water
table. I'd guess unlined ponds behave much the same way. Some are above
the local water table and others are below it or intersect it.

If a pond is normally above the local water table it always must drain into
it, even if only a little. The water flow (granted it may not be very much
at all) will constantly go from the pond into the ground. There are times,
however, (like after a heavy rain) when a saturated ground will actually
result in the local water table being above the pond, and the water flow
will be from the ground into the pond. Depending on the porosity of the
ground and how much rain there was and things like that I could see this
kind of reversal happening several times a month. I realize that this kind
of movement is very slow, is it so minimal in most cases as to not be worth
considering? I can't find anything on it, so maybe it is insignificant.

The other case would be a pond that didn't "breathe," such as one that
intersects the water table. A hard rain might dump 6 inches of water in
the pond, but it would also dump it on the surrounding land, so while the
water in the pond might rise, the surrounding local water table would also
rise by about the same amount, resulting in virtually no flow between the
ground and the pond. Like I say, though, this difference may be
insignificant enough to be safely ignored, but I can find nothing that
addresses it.

The above assumes, of course, that there is absolutely no surface run-off
or anything else involved, something that would horribly complicate this
rather simplistic (and perhaps stupid) question.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
I may not use the proper terminology, but if anyone can make heads or tails
out of this and responds or tells me where I can find more information I
sure would appreciate it.

There seems to be a sort of local water table with respect to ponds. To
put it one way, if you dig a hole in the ground and fill it with water
will
the water drain out? If it does, the hole must be above the local water
table. If it fills up with water by itself while you are fussing with the
hose to try to fill it up, I'd say the hole is well below the local water
table. I'd guess unlined ponds behave much the same way. Some are above
the local water table and others are below it or intersect it.

From what I know if the bottom of a soil pond is above the water table the
water will drain away. If a hole fills in it's below the water table. Some
ponds with certain clay soils will not empty but retain water.

If a pond is normally above the local water table it always must drain
into
it, even if only a little. The water flow (granted it may not be very
much
at all) will constantly go from the pond into the ground. There are
times,
however, (like after a heavy rain) when a saturated ground will actually
result in the local water table being above the pond, and the water flow
will be from the ground into the pond. Depending on the porosity of the
ground and how much rain there was and things like that I could see this
kind of reversal happening several times a month. I realize that this
kind
of movement is very slow, is it so minimal in most cases as to not be
worth
considering? I can't find anything on it, so maybe it is insignificant.

No one can say. It depends on how much rain you get where YOU live and YOUR
soil conditions. You can have a friend call your county (Agricultural)
extension agent for information on your area - and who you can contact for
the information you seek .

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

I'm not sure what you're trying to ask. I think you're asking if an unlined
pond will eventually drain out. The answer is it depends on so many things
as you pointed out. Depth of water table, soil type, porosity of soil,
Obviously natural ponds and lakes are proof, that some can exist
perpetually, though they are often fed by rain run off, rivers or just an
incredibly shallow watertable.

Water table depth , porousness of the soil, evaporation rate, and rainfall
all impact the water level of an unlined pond. Contrary to your assessment,
these factors all play heavily into the viability of an unlined pond.
Consider that some ponders in new mexico and arizona have reported a water
loss of 1-2 inches per day from evaporation in the summer.

Natural ponds also experience similar cycles, some years they dry out
completely, other years the water level recedes drastically, other years
they flood over their banks. Call your local water district, they'll be able
to answer these questions as they relate specifically to your area.

In my area, the water district/municipality maintains an artificial pond
near my house that are designed to help refill the ground water supply. I
bet they know exactly the rate at which the water level fluctuates, and even
exactly where the water goes, evaporation or absorption into the soil.

Good luck.

If it's from PRODIGY NET it's the imposter. ;-)

Another "imposter" troll post.

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
om...
I'm not sure what you're trying to ask. I think you're asking if an
unlined pond will eventually drain out. The answer is it depends on so
many things as you pointed out. Depth of water table, soil type, porosity
of soil, .......
= SNIP!

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

If it's from PRODIGY NET it's the imposter. ;-)

Another "imposter" troll post.


What was trolling about that post?

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:00:14 GMT, "Koi-lo" wrote:

I'm not sure what you're trying to ask.

Let me try another way then. In caving, we generally speak of two zones,
the vadose, or what I describe as being above the water table, and
phreatic, or below the water table. As far as caves go, the vadose zone is
where erosion takes place to form passages, in the phreatic zone, solution
is the primary factor. Much cave passage is formed by solution (generally
a weak acid solution which dissolves the limestone) and then when the water
table falls, passages are enlarged (or filled) by erosion in the vadose
zone, as water makes it down to the phreatic zone. The two are not
completely distinct, but that is a general picture. Frequently we find
examples of stream erosion in the vadose zone (air filled passages) in a
section formed entirely by solution when it was in the phreatic zone. As
far as ponds go, some must be in the vadose zone (frequently requiring some
sort of physical barrier to retain the water, often a liner) and some are
"windows" in the phreatic zone, and depend entirely upon the level of the
water table for their ability to retain water. When the water table goes
down, likewise so does the level of water in the phreatic pond. The
reverse is true when the water table rises. A pond in the vadose zone,
however, will be virtually independent of what the water table does, and
the water level will be entirely dependent on how impermeable the barrier
is. (Assuming, of course, things like evaporation are ignored.) Now I can
see a whole lot of complications, such as a phreatic pond being filled by
the run off from land that is above the water table, resulting in a
phreatic pond with vadose conditions near the surface, but in the case of
an "ideal" pond, is it proper to divide them into two kinds, or is it
largely a case of a distinction without much of a difference? It makes a
fair amount of difference in speleogenesis, does it matter in regards to
ponds?

I think you're asking if an unlined
pond will eventually drain out. The answer is it depends on so many things
as you pointed out. Depth of water table, soil type, porosity of soil,
Obviously natural ponds and lakes are proof, that some can exist
perpetually, though they are often fed by rain run off, rivers or just an
incredibly shallow watertable.

Water table depth , porousness of the soil, evaporation rate, and rainfall
all impact the water level of an unlined pond. Contrary to your assessment,
these factors all play heavily into the viability of an unlined pond.
Consider that some ponders in new mexico and arizona have reported a water
loss of 1-2 inches per day from evaporation in the summer.

Natural ponds also experience similar cycles, some years they dry out
completely, other years the water level recedes drastically, other years
they flood over their banks. Call your local water district, they'll be able
to answer these questions as they relate specifically to your area.

In my area, the water district/municipality maintains an artificial pond
near my house that are designed to help refill the ground water supply. I
bet they know exactly the rate at which the water level fluctuates, and even
exactly where the water goes, evaporation or absorption into the soil.

The pond I'm fussing with seems to be entirely phreatic. Before the
bulldozer and stuff came, I pumped out the water in the pond. If, however,
I just left things alone, water would again re-enter the pond. After the
bulldozer came, I quit pumping, and now, about a week later, the pond
probably has a good four feet of water near the center. The water level
rises not as fast now, but I'd guess it is about 1/2 inch a day. I'm
guessing it has about another foot to go before it quits. Sure, we've had
a little rain here, but hardly enough to dramatically change the water
level in the pond. There is absolutely no run off into the pond, the land
surrounding the pond is a higher than the land that might possibly drain
into it. Granted, it is only a few inches higher, but that is enough.
(The land right here is like that. I noticed when I was digging post holes
for railing uprights that if I went down about a foot it got *real* damp,
and if I went much more I'd strike wet mud.)

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:34:59 -0500, Hal wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:19:11 -0500, Galen Hekhuis
wrote:

I may not use the proper terminology, but if anyone can make heads or tails
out of this and responds or tells me where I can find more information I
sure would appreciate it.

I don't know of a source of information on breathing ponds. I could
be quite happy with what you have, but it would not be what I have
now. I have a lined koi pond that only gets new water when I add it,
not a continual addition of water daily from ground water. I would
expect that your pond may not remain clear all the time because of the
continual replacement of water,

I don't think the water is replaced continuously at all. In fact, now that
you bring it up, I think there is very little water exchange in a phreatic
type pond. Evaporation might be a factor, but the humidity is quite high
here in Florida, and I doubt evaporation is quite the factor it might be in
the Southwest.

but I wouldn't filter it, (Just as
futile as filtering an above ground stream.) and I think I might wait
a year before I even attempted to aerate. I believe I would consider
the water temperature and life in the water before aerating. I've
seen holes in the ground in Florida that filled with clear ground
water and soon had a few blue gills. You might be that lucky, if not
you may have to learn to live with what you have, or cover it up if
you don't like it, because IMHO, your control of flowing water is
limited.

Regards,

Hal

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
et...

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

If it's from PRODIGY NET it's the imposter. ;-)

Another "imposter" troll post.


What was trolling about that post?
==============================
Trolls use other people's NYMs as you should know by now. You must really
admire a person to want to impersonate them so much. :-) Thanks for the
complement.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...

After the
bulldozer came, I quit pumping, and now, about a week later, the pond
probably has a good four feet of water near the center. The water level
rises not as fast now, but I'd guess it is about 1/2 inch a day. I'm
guessing it has about another foot to go before it quits. Sure, we've had
a little rain here, but hardly enough to dramatically change the water
level in the pond.

Then it's probably being fed by and underground spring or the water table is
causing it to fill.

There is absolutely no run off into the pond, the land
surrounding the pond is a higher than the land that might possibly drain
into it. Granted, it is only a few inches higher, but that is enough.
(The land right here is like that. I noticed when I was digging post
holes
for railing uprights that if I went down about a foot it got *real* damp,
and if I went much more I'd strike wet mud.)

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Galen Hekhuis wrote:

I may not use the proper terminology, but can anyone make heads or tails
out of this and responds or tells me where I can find more information I
sure would appreciate it.

Ponds need to be aerated especially if they have fish, but also to
prevent anaerobic bacteria from getting started and creating the stinky
stagnant smell.

Ponds need to expel bad gasses. That would be excess CO2, and other
waste gasses and especially sulfur and nitrogen compounds.

See: http://www.malibuwater.com/h2s.htm
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA