~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:

"Nedra" wrote in message
k.net...
Thanks Derek. Sense you asked ~ I'm still in a state of shock over Momma
due to an over-anxious
and Take Charge brother.... He moved her to a nurseing home in
Sikeston, MO ~~ it's just too upsetting to even talk about.
Thanks though for your concern.
=====================
Nedra, I understand as my brother did the same thing with my mother and
never mentioned a word about his plans until after the fact. After her last
stroke he got power of attorney from her lawyer, sold her house in NYC and
sent her to a Nursing Home in VA where no one gets to visit her. She's gone
downhill rapidly since there. It is very upsetting.....

There's two ways to deal with such type of family members; do nothing or
fight back. Just because they are first to get power of attorney doesn't
mean they will keep it indefinately. If you can prove to the courts that
they are not acting in the best interest of the elder (say they're acting
more in their financial interest) and that this failure to act in the
elder's best interest has led to the decline of the health of the elder,
well that's pretty damn close to elder abuse (hell, I'd call it elder
abuse, but I'm not a lawyer). The courts will likely strip the power of
attorney from the original holder and award it to someone else, although
not always to another family member.

In the worst case, the courts may set up a public guardianship where a
guardian appointed by the courts (usually an non-interested third party
who works for the office in charge of such matters) takes over. This can
be a hairy situation under certain circumstances. For example, the public
guardian is bound by a bit of red tape and might not be able to react as
quickly to certain health situations as a family member with power of
attorney might. Also, when the elder dies, probate court takes a whole lot
longer when there's a guardianship involved because the guardian has to
make sure all bills are resolved before sending information on the estate
to the courts. My grandfather died under a guardianship last spring. So
far the only parts of his estate that have been dispersed are a couple of
accounts that were not accessible by the guardian (death benefits from his
pension plan I think). The rest is still locked up in probate.

Nedra wrote:
Carol, I just can't figure out twisted minds. Your case is much sadder than
mine ...
I hope my brother doesn't do anymore stupid things - he will find out how
angry his older
(by 19 months) sis can get ;-)

My sympathies, Nedra. Watching our parents grow old and sick is, I
think, one of the saddest things in life.

I suppose this is one of those times when being an only child is an
advantage -- there's no doubt who's supposed to hold the PofA, and make
all the decisions, and no one who will disagree. When my mother went
seriously downhill (advanced Parkinson), and Dad felt he couldn't cope
any more, he just pulled out the PofAs, and said: "Please take over."
And round we went to the banks to get my name added to the accounts, and
from then on I basically talked to the doctors, made all the decisions,
and signed everything, for both of them. But it would have been nice to
have someone else around to discuss things with. My MIL and her sis
leaned on each other in a big way, all through their Mom's declining
phase. My DW did yeoman service through the whole thing with my parents
-- basically 18 months of dealing with nursing homes, care agencies and
what-not -- but it ain't the same. It all depends on the relationship
among the siblings, I guess.

Carol: I'm a little puzzled how your bro "got power of attorney from her
lawyer". Maybe this is a difference between jurisdictions (or maybe my
parents were just better prepared) than yours, but AFAIK PofA is a
document you draw up while you're still capable, in which you name the
people you want running your life for you when you're not. That's what
my parents did, and that's what we've done for ourselves (though it
should be many years before we need to invoke them). I guess the
take-home lesson is: when making your will (and we all should!), also
have your lawyer draw up Powers of Attorney for Property and Care. Note
that a PofA can name multiple Attorneys AND specify that they must act
jointly -- that would prevent one sib unilaterally doing all sorts of
things the rest of the family won't like. You can save your kids a lot
of future friction.

-- Kizhe


Nedra

Lotus Garden:
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
Backyard Pond:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...

"Nedra" wrote in message
ink.net...

Thanks Derek. Sense you asked ~ I'm still in a state of shock over

Momma

due to an over-anxious
and Take Charge brother.... He moved her to a nurseing home in
Sikeston, MO ~~ it's just too upsetting to even talk about.
Thanks though for your concern.

=====================
Nedra, I understand as my brother did the same thing with my mother and
never mentioned a word about his plans until after the fact. After her

last

stroke he got power of attorney from her lawyer, sold her house in NYC and
sent her to a Nursing Home in VA where no one gets to visit her. She's

gone

downhill rapidly since there. It is very upsetting.....
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Nedra" wrote in message
k.net...
Carol, I just can't figure out twisted minds. Your case is much sadder
than
mine ...

## My mother has nothing left, not even her clothes since the other
patients swap and steal them. All he was concerned about was what was best
for HIM. He knew should could have come here and stayed with us. We have
the room. There was nothing I could do after the fact.

I hope my brother doesn't do anymore stupid things - he will find out how
angry his older
(by 19 months) sis can get ;-)

## I found out when they have power of attorney you can't do much.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Due to financial crisis the light at the end
of the tunnel is switched off."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Lt. Kizhe Catson" wrote in message
...

Carol: I'm a little puzzled how your bro "got power of attorney from her
lawyer".

** Her lawyer, knowing she was "confused" and not competent, had her sign
the papers giving POA to my brother. She didn't even remember signing any
papers when I spoke to her. She didn't realize she had signed her house,
her saving and her how away. I got nowhere with her lawyer. This was in
Queens NY several years ago.

Maybe this is a difference between jurisdictions (or maybe my
parents were just better prepared) than yours, but AFAIK PofA is a
document you draw up while you're still capable,

** Believe me - she was far from capable at the time. Her MD could prove
that! My brother went to her lawyer and had this done before my visit that
year.

in which you name the
people you want running your life for you when you're not.

** She never did this. She thought she was going to live forever. She
never counted on having strokes (she had several).

That's what
my parents did, and that's what we've done for ourselves (though it
should be many years before we need to invoke them). I guess the
take-home lesson is: when making your will (and we all should!), also
have your lawyer draw up Powers of Attorney for Property and Care. Note
that a PofA can name multiple Attorneys AND specify that they must act
jointly -- that would prevent one sib unilaterally doing all sorts of
things the rest of the family won't like. You can save your kids a lot
of future friction.

** I agree with you 100% I'll never forgive my brother for what he did.
There was no reason to sell her house and put her in a NH hundreds of miles
from everyone she knew and cared about. It's like no one else in the family
existed! Then, coward that he is, he had his wife call and tell me where my
mother was. Everything was done secretly and behind my back. I hope I
never see him again as long as I live........
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Nedra" wrote in message
k.net...
Thanks you guys. I'm a fighter! I just got back from my lawyer. He
mentioned a Guardianship
but I really didn't want to go that way. He is writing my brother a
letter
asking him
for an accounting of the monies he has taken from her (all 3 of us are
joint
owners)
account including in excess of $30K he withdrew and invested and Lost in
the
dot.com bubble.
What a mess.
========================
My brother had to give an accounting to SS as to where my mother's cash
went. $250,000 (give or take) went for imported Polish nurses - they
cleaned my mother's house out. They carried away everything of value
including her silver and jewelry. Jewelry with sentimental value; my father
gave it to her over the years. The silver was a wedding gift to her from
her brother. Some jewelry was my grandmothers. My brother, living across
the street from her was too busy to watch this live-in thief who was getting
$5,000 a month plus free room-and-board. When the cash was gone he sold her
house = $350,000 + or - and that went to the NH. Because she failed to
make plans before her (cluster) strokes she now has no choice. Her own
lawyer and son sold her down the river......
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is one thing my brother did right years ago. He had his lawyer set up
durable
powers of attorney naming both of us... either/or is how the document
reads.
It seems strange he didn't think I would fight him on this. Surely he knows
I will not
be bossed around and steamrollered..

Nedra

Lotus Garden:
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...

"Nedra" wrote in message
k.net...
Carol, I just can't figure out twisted minds. Your case is much sadder
than
mine ...

## My mother has nothing left, not even her clothes since the other
patients swap and steal them. All he was concerned about was what was
best
for HIM. He knew should could have come here and stayed with us. We have
the room. There was nothing I could do after the fact.

I hope my brother doesn't do anymore stupid things - he will find out
how
angry his older
(by 19 months) sis can get ;-)

## I found out when they have power of attorney you can't do much.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Due to financial crisis the light at the end
of the tunnel is switched off."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Nedra" wrote in message
. net...
That is one thing my brother did right years ago. He had his lawyer set
up
durable
powers of attorney naming both of us... either/or is how the document
reads.
It seems strange he didn't think I would fight him on this. Surely he
knows
I will not
be bossed around and steamrollered..

Nedra
==================
You go girl! :-) My brother was slick as a weasel knowing I was 1000 miles
away. He had a clear field to do as he pleased where mom was concerned.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
** You are surely correct but I cannot afford a good lawyer to fight
this.
I live in TN and she lives in VA now. Her lawyer is still in NY as far
as I
know. My brother and his wife also live in VA. What galls me is her
own
lawyer screwed her, knowing she could have come here and lived with us.
I
spoke to him over the phone concerning her bank accounts being drawn
down.
There are legal issues I can't get into here. He knew she was not
competent
to sign her estate over - no one was there to look out for her welfare.

Two options: pro bono lawyer and the elder abuse prevention agency from
one of these localities. Both of these would be free of charge to you.
Don't let lack of money keep you from fighting. There's almost always free
or cheap alternatives which would provide just as adequate, if slower
moving, results. You should be able to find the elder agency by looking
online (check for all states involved). As for the lawyer, check your
affliations. You'd be suprised how many organizations offer free consults
to lawyers for their members. I have such free consults from both my
credit union and undergrad alumni association. From the consult, you may
be able to find a pro bono lawyer at the firm or be referred to one. If
you don't have any such affliations, start working your social network to
see if any lawyer links show up. For example, the father of one of the
gals I went to high school and college with is a real estate lawyer. Think
of the "6 degree" rule... within 6 degrees (friend of a friend of a
friend... ad-nasuem) is likely a lawyer. You just have to dig a little to
find one.
==================
There is nothing left to fight for now. Everything she had is GONE,
including her independence and health. Since they tied her to a wheelchair
and made her use a diaper she's now completely helpless, has no bowel or
bladder control and her limbs are atrophied. Before she went there she was
getting along fine with her cane. She now needs round the clock care. Even
if I could locate a layer,... please tell me... what could he/she do for my
mother now?
I live in a very isolated area and only see people a few times a year at the
motorcycle events. My nearest friend lives 60 miles away. The others are
acquaintances, not friends. The rest of the people I see are strangers in
the stores. It's a hell of a way to live but I have no choice. Believe me,
had I stayed in NYC (like I should have) this would never have happened to
my mother.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My brother thought he had a clear field ahead to do whatever he wished with
Mother's money.... I fixed him good. He has to give me a monthly accounting
of every
cent he pays out of her account. Lawyer has the letter drafted to go. I
didn't feel
one bit bad when Bub visited the nursing home while son Dave and I were
there...
this afternoon. I'm surprising myself! Sure feels better than carting all
that stress
around ;-)

Nedra
Lotus Garden:
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...

"Nedra" wrote in message
. net...
That is one thing my brother did right years ago. He had his lawyer set
up
durable
powers of attorney naming both of us... either/or is how the document
reads.
It seems strange he didn't think I would fight him on this. Surely he
knows
I will not
be bossed around and steamrollered..

Nedra
==================
You go girl! :-) My brother was slick as a weasel knowing I was 1000
miles
away. He had a clear field to do as he pleased where mom was concerned.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks BV. She has no understanding of the cyber world...but she does
understand
when someome wishes her well. I'll pass on your wishes to her.

Nedra

--
Lotus Garden:
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
Backyard Pond:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"Nedra" wrote in message
ink.net...
snip
And then my Mom had a stroke on 21 Dec so that has consumed alot of
time.
snip

All the best for your Mom.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Carol,

At the very least, you might be able to talk to people who have been through
similar situations. Here is a link to SeniorLaw Resources:
http://www.seniorlaw.com/resource.htm

Also, here is the link to the website of NYS Attorney General Eliot Spitzer:
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/ (Even if all this happened to your mother
before Spitzer, NYS AG's have traditionally been tough characters.)

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote
[snipped]
There is nothing left to fight for now. Everything she had is GONE,
including her independence and health. Since they tied her to a
wheelchair
and made her use a diaper she's now completely helpless, has no bowel or
bladder control and her limbs are atrophied. Before she went there she
was
getting along fine with her cane. She now needs round the clock care.
Even
if I could locate a layer,... please tell me... what could he/she do for
my
mother now?
I live in a very isolated area and only see people a few times a year at
the
motorcycle events. My nearest friend lives 60 miles away. The others are
acquaintances, not friends. The rest of the people I see are strangers in
the stores. It's a hell of a way to live but I have no choice. Believe
me,
had I stayed in NYC (like I should have) this would never have happened to
my mother.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Carol & Nedra, wow, to the both of you. They are certainly tales of
caution. It's sad and sickening when you can't even trust an immediate
family member.

Sending warm wishes to you and your mothers.

Lilly

Nedra wrote:
Thanks BV. She has no understanding of the cyber world...but she
does
understand
when someome wishes her well. I'll pass on your wishes to her.

"Anne Lurie" wrote in message
. com...
Carol,

At the very least, you might be able to talk to people who have been
through
similar situations. Here is a link to SeniorLaw Resources:
http://www.seniorlaw.com/resource.htm

$$ Thanks Anne.

Also, here is the link to the website of NYS Attorney General Eliot
Spitzer:
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/ (Even if all this happened to your mother
before Spitzer, NYS AG's have traditionally been tough characters.)

$$ I'll check these sites out. Unfortunately, there was no one there at
the time to look out for my mother and what was best for her. If I had only
known....

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"If electricity comes from electrons,
does morality come from morons?"
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Anne Lurie" wrote in message
. com...
Carol,

At the very least, you might be able to talk to people who have been
through
similar situations. Here is a link to SeniorLaw Resources:
http://www.seniorlaw.com/resource.htm

$$ Thanks Anne.

Also, here is the link to the website of NYS Attorney General Eliot
Spitzer:
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/ (Even if all this happened to your mother
before Spitzer, NYS AG's have traditionally been tough characters.)

$$ I'll check these sites out. Unfortunately, there was no one there at
the time to look out for my mother and what was best for her. If I had only
known....

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"If electricity comes from electrons,
does morality come from morons?"
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Lilly" wrote in message
oups.com...
Carol & Nedra, wow, to the both of you. They are certainly tales of
caution. It's sad and sickening when you can't even trust an immediate
family member.

## No, you can't trust family. You can't even trust that your own children
will have your best interests at heart in the end.

Sending warm wishes to you and your mothers.

## Thanks.

Lilly

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~