Theo wrote Do not buy cheap air pumps as they will fail very soon.

I got my air pump from
http://www.aquaticecosystems.com
good site
(standard disclaimer applies)

k30a

O2 enters water by its contact with it. So with that said the more surface
area you have for air to contact the water the quicker O2 can be
(re)absorbed. However, once the surface water is saturated with O2 no more
O2 will be absorbed in the pond. Very little O2 is added to water via the
air that comes out of an airstone. It's main purpose is to agitate the water
surface and create current so that the saturated surface water that was
exposed to the air drops and O2 depleted water raises to the surface.

If you had an airstone that made it so that there were always 1,000 bubbles
with a size of 1/32 of an inch in your water you'd only be adding around 12
square inches of surface area to your pond. That's a 3"X4" square.

If you have a pump that's creating current in your water you're fine. Now
using a fountain is a great way to get O2 in the water because you're
generating a HUGE amount of surface area because the water is being blown
apart into droplets and wrapped around by air. You'd be better served though
to have the pump for the fountain at the bottom of the pond. If it's input
is at the top of the pond you're saturating water you just saturated.

This is why those big air stone disks for rec ponds work so well. Ponds less
then 8-12 feet don't stratify (meaning there is no current caused by
different temperatures of water raising and failing). The disks are placed
at the bottom of the pond and make a current that takes the low O2 air at
the bottom and pushes it to the top of the pond to get saturated.

Sam


"FBCS" wrote in message
...
I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
to
the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what do
you use? Joann

"Lee Brouillet" writes:

I understand, Andrew. And I prefer to keep the O2 in my water at saturation,
not "less than".

As do I.

A spray bar on the water return to your pond would help
with the pond's O2 levels; the spray bar to your filter is excellent for
keeping the biobugs happy, but may not do too much for the fish once the
water gets back to the pond.

I don't see your logic here. The biobugs consume a fixed amount of oxygen
regardless of where aeration occurs (as do the fish). Aerating the water in the
filter aerates the pond. Its the way to go if you don't want the noise or
appearence of aeration in the pond itself.

Thanks all - for your imput. Joann
"FBCS" wrote in message
...
I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
to
the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what do
you use? Joann

In , on 08/01/03
at 02:54 PM, "Theo van Daele" said:


But !: (big but) Do not buy cheap air pumps as they will fail very soon.
The good ones are more expensive than you'd expect (IMHO)

I have the Tetra G Luft pump. Still going strong in its seventh year.



Alan

--

---------------------------------------------------------------------
**** Please use address ) to reply via e-mail. ****

Posted using registered MR/2 ICE Newsreader #564

---------------------------------------------------------------------

good aeration also helps move other gases up and out of the water... like CO2 and
H2S. Ingrid

"Theo van Daele" wrote:

And I prefer to keep the O2 in my water at saturation,
not "less than".

Agreed 100 %. O2 is one of these things you can never overdose.

Lots of plants / morning / thunderstorm impending / some decaying mulm...
one would be amazed how much O2 levels can drop in just a few hours. Fish
need O2 more than they need water so to speak.

But !: (big but) Do not buy cheap air pumps as they will fail very soon.
The good ones are more expensive than you'd expect (IMHO)

Learned this the hard way.

Theo




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

just aerating the filters is not the same. everything in the pond needs oxygen too
AND aeration moves unwanted gases out of the pond. Ingrid


Andrew Burgess wrote:
I don't see your logic here. The biobugs consume a fixed amount of oxygen
regardless of where aeration occurs (as do the fish). Aerating the water in the
filter aerates the pond. Its the way to go if you don't want the noise or
appearence of aeration in the pond itself.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrong.. a great deal of air exchange occurs between the small air bubbles and the
water... those fine bubbles have a tremendous surface area and it not only puts air
(all the molecules of gases in air, not just oxygen) into the water, it lightens the
water and moves the water to the surface where it helps degas the CO2 and H2S and
other unwanted gases. think about sponge filters and how an airstone down inside
them creates enough of a suction that it pulls crap from the tank into and thru the
sponge. Ingrid

Very little O2 is added to water via the
air that comes out of an airstone. It's main purpose is to agitate the water
surface and create current so that the saturated surface water that was
exposed to the air drops and O2 depleted water raises to the surface.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Ingrid,

The amount of surface area a few hundred bubbles adds is insignificant, compared to the surface area of the pond.

See a post made by Jagath last year. I could go through the math again, but he did a much better job then I could. In that particular post, he was discussing the value of using an airbubbler to keep a hole open over winter, and how an airbubbler affects the gas exchange.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=bu...pam.com&rnum=1

http://tinyurl.com/iufg

The main thing an airbubbler does, is create circulation. The water follows the air bubbles to the surface. But the same could be done with a pump, and that sucks water from the bottom and discharges it at the surface of the pond.

Sameer

wrote in message ...
wrong.. a great deal of air exchange occurs between the small air bubbles and the
water... those fine bubbles have a tremendous surface area and it not only puts air
(all the molecules of gases in air, not just oxygen) into the water, it lightens the
water and moves the water to the surface where it helps degas the CO2 and H2S and
other unwanted gases. think about sponge filters and how an airstone down inside
them creates enough of a suction that it pulls crap from the tank into and thru the
sponge. Ingrid

Very little O2 is added to water via the
air that comes out of an airstone. It's main purpose is to agitate the water
surface and create current so that the saturated surface water that was
exposed to the air drops and O2 depleted water raises to the surface.

writes:

wrong.. a great deal of air exchange occurs between the small air bubbles and the
water... those fine bubbles have a tremendous surface area and it not only puts air
(all the molecules of gases in air, not just oxygen) into the water,

Small bubbles have small amounts of air too.

I read an experiment decades ago in aquariums where bubbling air VS pure oxygen
was tried. Suprisingly, no difference in water O2 levels. It happens at the surface.

it lightens the
water and moves the water to the surface where it helps degas the CO2 and H2S and
other unwanted gases. think about sponge filters and how an airstone down inside
them creates enough of a suction that it pulls crap from the tank into and thru the
sponge. Ingrid

Yes, circulation and agitation are the keys.

writes:

just aerating the filters is not the same.i

Oh? I suppose biofiltering in the filter isn't the same as doing it in the pond
either?

Saturate the water in the filter and the whole pond gets saturated.

everything in the pond needs oxygen too

The water circulates.

Andrew Burgess writes:

writes:

just aerating the filters is not the same.i

Oh? I suppose biofiltering in the filter isn't the same as doing it in the pond
either?

Saturate the water in the filter and the whole pond gets saturated.

everything in the pond needs oxygen too

The water circulates.

If you want to pick nits, there is a slight difference between aerating
in the filter and then pond. It changes who gets to use the oxygen first.

So if you aerate to saturation in the filter, the biofilter consumes a little
and the fish see a tiny bit less than saturation.

The bottom line is if you don't want aeration in the pond because of
appearance or noise then put it in the filter and you won't notice a difference
nor will the fish.

Boy I stirred up a lot of bubbles with this thread (LOL), but great
information.
"FBCS" wrote in message
...
Thanks all - for your imput. Joann
"FBCS" wrote in message
...
I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
to
the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what
do
you use? Joann

LOL...I know, i am laughing picturing you sitting there with a pencil
and tablet doing all these math equations.



On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:38:24 GMT, "FBCS" wrote:

Boy I stirred up a lot of bubbles with this thread (LOL), but great
information.
"FBCS" wrote in message
...
Thanks all - for your imput. Joann
"FBCS" wrote in message
...
I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
to
the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what
do
you use? Joann

i have a pump that pushes the water up so that it falls back into the pond.
this aerates the water during the hot months. in the winter when i turn the
water pump off, i use a small air pump i once used for my aquarium. i keep
it under a ceramic quail so it will stay dry. all it does is bubble a bit to
keep any possible ice from forming, which has only happened once, since i'm
out here in southwest texas. i don't want the colder water to mix with the
warmer water so i don't put the tube and airstone down deep. i've never lost
a fish (knock on wood).

this is a small, stocktank pond. YMMV...

mad
--
See my zone 8B pond:
http://community.webshots.com/album/14478479WdPMkPBPmt
http://community.webshots.com/album/40739268OAqLln
Rec.ponds FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein... Prov 26:27

From: "FBCS"
Newsgroups: rec.ponds
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:45:23 GMT
Subject: Is a Air Pump necessary?

But you didn't answer the second part of my question. If airation w/
airstone is necessary what size and type do I look for. They do not hang at
the top, but they are in full sun most of the day and in only 18" of depth
until I can finish digging. They is a slight waterfall they love to play in
and swim against the flow.
"BenignVanilla" wrote in message
...
"Sam Hopkins" wrote in message
.. .
Unless your fish are hanging at the top of the water gasping you dont
need
an airstone.

"FBCS" wrote in message
...
I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air
stone
to
the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what
do
you use? Joann

Sam, I think scientifically this is probably true, but if someone is
strangling you, would you like them to stop now, or wait until you turn
blue? Either way you will probably live, but which is really better? It's
cheap and easy to aerate.

BV.







-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----