oxygen diffusion surely does occur all along the path of bubbles and the finer the
bubbles the better aeration is. but that is not the whole story.
from previous posts.... this is in the aquatic ecosystems catalog
http://www.aquaticeco.com/aquatic1v1...ystems&eflag=2

on page 35 tech talk #84
Air and Oxygen Diffusers: .....
"Oxygen transfer is proportional to bubble size and contact time. Small bubbles have
a greater air to water contact surface area than the same volume of gas in fewer
large bubbles (see bubble size tech notes).
and the bubble notes are on page 33. "a short course in fine bubbles tech talk #52
"Mechanical aerators agitate water to produce liquid/air contact, while underwater
diffusers introduce bubbles from a depth to achieve oxygen transfer and mixing. ...
Bubble aerators are also better at removing gases, such as ammonia and carbon
dioxide".
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

in a saturated oxygen condition, no further saturation will occur in the bubble
stream or at the surface.
for the experiment to be meaningful would require a thick layer of oil on top of the
water, then let the oxygen levels drop, then introduce the oxygen.
however, oxygen is also a superb "oxidizer" that reacts with and breaks down organic
compounds. it detoxifies gases like H2S. so good aeration is multi-functional.
Ingrid

Andrew Burgess wrote:
I read an experiment decades ago in aquariums where bubbling air VS pure oxygen
was tried. Suprisingly, no difference in water O2 levels. It happens at the surface.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ...
All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
must be introduced via degassing.

Lee,
What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
rather than submerge the hose in the water.

Sue W.

Water coming out of the ground via well has no (or very little) oxygen in
it. The same thing as water pushed through miles of pipe . . . the oxygen
has been knocked out of it. Once it gets to the surface and has been
agitated a bit, O2 is reintroduced. But initially, there's not much.
Degassing towers are used by a lot of "serious" koi folks on well water,
which is simply a way of dropping water through a 4-6" pipe that has
barriers in it, like grates (maybe 1 each foot) before it comes out the
other end. That way the water gets agitated, the CO2 is bounced out, and the
O2 gets introduced. Or you can put in an air pump, spray bar, or other means
of agitating the surface (paddle boat, anyone??? Actually, they have
something similar designed for large areas of water to mess with the surface
G)

Lee
"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
must be introduced via degassing.

Lee,
What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
rather than submerge the hose in the water.

Sue W.

Sue Walsh wrote:
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ...

All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
must be introduced via degassing.


Lee,
What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
rather than submerge the hose in the water.

Sue W.


--
I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add oxegen.

my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft above
the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

"Lee Brouillet" writes:

Water coming out of the ground via well has no (or very little) oxygen in
it. The same thing as water pushed through miles of pipe . . . the oxygen
has been knocked out of it.

And where was the oxygen knocked to?

Thanks John.

Lee

"john rutz" wrote in message
...


Sue Walsh wrote:
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...

All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
must be introduced via degassing.


Lee,
What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
rather than submerge the hose in the water.

Sue W.


--
I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add
oxegen.

my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft above
the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Thanks All for the information, very interesting. I will try to even
raise the hose up higher to get more of a spalsh when filling from now
on.

BTW: While I'm waiting for this pond to 'mature' should I be doing
any 25% water changes?

Sue W

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ...
Thanks John.

Lee

"john rutz" wrote in message
...


Sue Walsh wrote:
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...

All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
must be introduced via degassing.


Lee,
What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
rather than submerge the hose in the water.

Sue W.


--
I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add
oxegen.

my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft above
the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

If you have a bead filter, change the water via the "waste" setting, not the
"backflush". You don't want to dislodge your hard-won biobugs! If you have a
"regular" filter, then you can do the changes. However, I'd do 10%, not 25%.
Twenty-five percent is a bit radical for weekly changes unless there's a
reason to do so, like getting meds or a heavy salt level out or something
like that. Watch your KH levels and adjust as necessary (between rain and
whatever your ambient KH levels are, you need to keep the KH ~200 ppm).

Lee
"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Thanks All for the information, very interesting. I will try to even
raise the hose up higher to get more of a spalsh when filling from now
on.

BTW: While I'm waiting for this pond to 'mature' should I be doing
any 25% water changes?

Sue W

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Thanks John.

Lee

"john rutz" wrote in message
...


Sue Walsh wrote:
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...

All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen,
and it
must be introduced via degassing.


Lee,
What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good
thing.
Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the
pond?
I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water
level,
rather than submerge the hose in the water.

Sue W.


--
I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add
oxegen.

my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft
above
the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Thanks All for the information, very interesting. I will try to even
raise the hose up higher to get more of a spalsh when filling from now
on.

BTW: While I'm waiting for this pond to 'mature' should I be doing
any 25% water changes?
snip

I do NO water changes. I simply top off periodically.

BV.

Not looking to "lock horns": there is always debate about water
changes/topping off, kinda like the rocks/no rocks on the bottom thing. Lots
of folks don't do water changes and say they're just fine. But the fact
remains that when you let water evaporate and just refill the pond, you get
a cumulative, concentrated build-up of goodies (and not-so-goodies). When
you do a water change (think EXchange), you take old water out and replace
it with new. Some folks complain that their fish aren't growing, but they
will again when water changes are done. That's a result of growth inhibiting
hormones secreted by the fish: once a certain concentration is reached, they
stop growing so they don't overgrow their surroundings. Salt will never
leave the pond: the concentration will remain the same, except right before
when you top off, in which case the ppm will be higher unless you exchange
water. Meds will never leave the pond.

Your pond is new, so exchange is not that serious at this point. But there
may (will?) come a time when it may make the difference.

Lee



"BenignVanilla" wrote in message
...

I do NO water changes. I simply top off periodically.

BV.

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Not looking to "lock horns": there is always debate about water
changes/topping off, kinda like the rocks/no rocks on the bottom thing.
Lots
of folks don't do water changes and say they're just fine. But the fact
remains that when you let water evaporate and just refill the pond, you
get
a cumulative, concentrated build-up of goodies (and not-so-goodies). When
you do a water change (think EXchange), you take old water out and replace
it with new. Some folks complain that their fish aren't growing, but they
will again when water changes are done. That's a result of growth
inhibiting
hormones secreted by the fish: once a certain concentration is reached,
they
stop growing so they don't overgrow their surroundings. Salt will never
leave the pond: the concentration will remain the same, except right
before
when you top off, in which case the ppm will be higher unless you exchange
water. Meds will never leave the pond.

Your pond is new, so exchange is not that serious at this point. But there
may (will?) come a time when it may make the difference.
snip

Consider the worms out of can...

What about filtration? Are you saying your filtration system cannot clean
these compounds out of the water?

BV.

BenignVanilla wrote:
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...

Not looking to "lock horns": there is always debate about water
changes/topping off, kinda like the rocks/no rocks on the bottom thing.

Lots

of folks don't do water changes and say they're just fine. But the fact
remains that when you let water evaporate and just refill the pond, you

get

a cumulative, concentrated build-up of goodies (and not-so-goodies). When
you do a water change (think EXchange), you take old water out and replace
it with new. Some folks complain that their fish aren't growing, but they
will again when water changes are done. That's a result of growth

inhibiting

hormones secreted by the fish: once a certain concentration is reached,

they

stop growing so they don't overgrow their surroundings. Salt will never
leave the pond: the concentration will remain the same, except right

before

when you top off, in which case the ppm will be higher unless you exchange
water. Meds will never leave the pond.

Your pond is new, so exchange is not that serious at this point. But there
may (will?) come a time when it may make the difference.

snip

Consider the worms out of can...

What about filtration? Are you saying your filtration system cannot clean
these compounds out of the water?

BV.




-- not unless its capable of filtering on the microscopic/atom level
disolved minerals and other solulabe compounds just circulate around
the systerm





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of which
I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly nothing
like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to bypass
your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why it's so
nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you think
I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will not
remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt, either. Or
medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15% each
and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
filter.

Lee



"BenignVanilla" wrote in message
...

Consider the worms out of can...

What about filtration? Are you saying your filtration system cannot clean
these compounds out of the water?

BV.

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of
which
I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly
nothing
like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to bypass
your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why it's
so
nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you
think
I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will not
remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt, either.
Or
medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15%
each
and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
filter.
snip

Is there a test for the "proteins"?

BV.