Timothy Tom wrote:
scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
.25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.

-- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley

Naaa, .25 is the first number of most test kits. It sure wouldn't kill in 2
hrs, though sure would stress the fish after a few days. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

(Timothy Tom) wrote:

Another update:

A bowl of pond water which had just done in a goldfish was taken
inside the house and allowed to equilibrate to the same temp as the
other bowl of water containing kitchen faucet water. I was concerned
that the elevated temp of the outside pond water was responsible for
killing fish. I took one of the goldfish that had been living in the
kitchen faucet water for over 24hrs, and placed it in the
temp-equilibrated pond water. I stayed up for a couple of hours, and
although the fish had not died, it was clearly not doing well when I
went to bed. It was dead in the morning, while the fish in the bowl
with kitchen faucet water were fine.

After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
pond liner does quickly kill fish.

As far as the pond size, I believe I was incorrect in my original
posting that the pond is about 150 gallons. A landscaper installed
the pond, so I don't have the documentation on it. I went to the pond
liner manufacturer site and I believe I found the liner that matches
our shape and it is 250 gallons.

I plan to completely empty the pond to dryness, and thoroughly inspect
the pond liner to see if I can find any leaks.

You gotta love this newsgroup and its determination to solve a
problem. The theory of toxic substances seeping into the pond through
a leak is sound. After looking over this entire thread (in
retrospect, of course, knowing about "the leak"), it seems just as
likely that the auto-refill system has been dumping untreated water
into the pond to compensate for the leak, negating the dechlor
treatments. Back in the day, when the problem started (you posted
that the refill system was shut off for one day), how much water loss
was suffered?

Followup UPDATE

The following test was done. One bowl of water from the Auto-refill
system was collected in a plastic bowl, and a second bowl was filled
with tap water from the kitchen faucet. Both bowls were treated with
dechlorinator/conditioner (TetraAqua Aquasafe). Two goldfish per bowl
were acclimated and released into the bowls. It is important to note
that both bowls were kept in the house (Thermostat kept at 79 degrees
during the day, and 84 degrees at night.

RESULTS AFTER APPROXIMATELY 24 HRS.

ALL GOLDFISH ALIVE.

Well this rules out the auto-refill system as the culprit. I did
remeasure the temperature of the pond water and found it to be 85
degrees. We are having a heat wave in South Texas. Could all my
problems be as simply as the pond being too hot? Can 85 degree water
kill goldfish in a couple of hours. I never saw the goldfish gulping
air near the surface as I would expect if the temp were too hot, and
the oxygen level too low in the pond.

My next test will be to go get a couple bags of ice, and lower the
temp of my pond to below 80 degrees and see if the goldfish make it
through a few hours. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the pond did
originally have 3 koi and a catfish in it for nearly two years, and I
believe koi are more heat-tolerant than goldfish. At this point I
have ruled out the following as culprits in killing the pond fish:
1) Municipal water supply (both from auto-refill and kitchen faucet
water supported fish inside my house in a bowl)
2) Electical short-circuit/current leak (Fish died with all electrical
devices unplugged/pond circuit is on GFI circuit, and any leak should
switch the plug off anyway)
3) Rock in pond (Rock removed, and fish still died)
4)Chemicals, contaminants, poisons (After over ten complete water
changes, if the water is still toxic then I have discovered a highly
deadly biotoxin that probably should have killed my whole family by
now.
5) Pond liner (Commercial pre-formed liner in use for over two years.
6) pH, Ammonia (tested and while not great, not likely to be able to
be acutely toxic to fish.

There is not a whole lot else to test now.

"MattO" writes:

"john rutz" wrote in message
...
Timothy Tom wrote:
TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:

O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two hours.
Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48 hours,
so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.

The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured at
perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
.25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.


-- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico


Tom,
I don't buy the ammonia theory.
0.25 -0.5 ppm ammonia is not that severe, certainly not bad enought to kill
so quickly.

Ditto. I imagine some of that ammonia came from the dead fish itself anyway.

Deadly Residue/Algae?

O.K. I COMPLETELY emptied the water from the pond (Not a single drop
left, pond completely dried). I did not find any leak. With the pond
completely empty and dried, I walked around it and thoroughly examined
it. The pond was emptied of all pumps, all rocks, everything. I did
not feel any evidence of water under the pond liner, or any water
leaking into the liner from outside. I noticed that there was some
green algae-appearing material on about 50% of the pond walls, and
some whiteish residue on about 25% of the pond wall surface. I got
into the pond and scrubbed the walls completely. The pond was rinsed
and the procedure was repeated twice (no soap just water and a brush).
The pond was completely clean, no residue, no algae. You would need
a magnifying glass to find any speck of anything on the liner. The
pond was refilled, and treated with dechlorinator and a chloramine
detoxifyer (Beckett product). A goldfish was acclimated and released.
So far it looks good. Will update. Now I can truely say, I do not
believe there is anything left to explain if the fish dies.

Trash bag???

[Sorry, I'd been having trouble keeping with all the volume here, so I
missed that part.]

Timothy, when you you use an ice-filled trash bag to cool down your pond?
Before the original fish-dying problem, or well after that? If you put the
trash bag in the pond after the original problem, then disregard the rest of
my post.

Trash bags are (I think) made of recycled low-density polyethylene (LDPE),
which should not in itself cause a problem. However, I thought I read that
somewhere that trash bags are actually coated on the outside with a powder
of some sort, either to facilitate the manufacturing process and/or to make
it possible for us consumers to get the bags off a roll -- especially if
you use the kind I do that don't need to be torn off a roll.

I guess maybe I spent too much time watching Industry on Parade on TV when I
was a kid; also, my dad was a plastics engineer, so I tend to think along
strange lines sometimes. OTOH, I can also tell you why aluminum foil is
shiny on 1 side & dull on the other (or at least I heard a reasonable
explanation).

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
om...
Another update:

A bowl of pond water which had just done in a goldfish was taken
inside the house and allowed to equilibrate to the same temp as the
other bowl of water containing kitchen faucet water. I was concerned
that the elevated temp of the outside pond water was responsible for
killing fish. I took one of the goldfish that had been living in the
kitchen faucet water for over 24hrs, and placed it in the
temp-equilibrated pond water. I stayed up for a couple of hours, and
although the fish had not died, it was clearly not doing well when I
went to bed. It was dead in the morning, while the fish in the bowl
with kitchen faucet water were fine.

After all the tests and dead goldfish, I believe that I have
determined a possible cause. When adding a large trash bag filled
with ice to cool the pond, I caused considerable waves in the pond. I
noticed that there was a small puddle next to the pond which moved in
sync with the pond water disturbance. I believe that there is a leak
in the pond somewhere (difficult to tell with this black preformed
liner) which is in equilibrium with water which has collected under
the pond. The water under the pond must have some toxic substance in
it which is contaminating the pond. This conclusion makes sense to me
since water taken directly from the auto-refill does not kill fish,
but water coming from the auto-refill system into a freshly cleaned
pond liner does quickly kill fish.

As far as the pond size, I believe I was incorrect in my original
posting that the pond is about 150 gallons. A landscaper installed
the pond, so I don't have the documentation on it. I went to the pond
liner manufacturer site and I believe I found the liner that matches
our shape and it is 250 gallons.

I plan to completely empty the pond to dryness, and thoroughly inspect
the pond liner to see if I can find any leaks.

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.

This a mystery wrapped up inside of an enigma!

Hope the leaking auto fill is the final answer.
We'll be waiting in pins and needles to find out!


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

(Timothy Tom) wrote in news:ff44f110.0308151405.36de82b4
@posting.google.com:

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.

suggest you don't refill using the auto fill. use a hose from the kitchen
tape, or somewhere that you know the water is good. I am still very
suspicious of the auto-fill set-up, just because it was turning it back
on that started this problem off.

Hallelujah !!!! ~~~~ Nedra


"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
om...
EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

EUREKA!!!!
:-)
hope this is the answer!


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

I'm glad to hear that the fish-killing problem has been identified.

However, IMHO, the next step would be to deal with the
pesticide-contaminated soil.

Stepping down from my soap box for tonight,

[sorry, it's been a tough week for me -- started with blaster worm & ended
with blackout-stranded relatives I was unable to reach because of blackout,
etc.]

G'night all,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
om...
EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!

Just a quote from the Newsgroups regarding the active ingredient in
Wasp spray and fish toxicity. By the way, the goldfish has survived
over 6 hours in the pond, well past the normal "death time" of two
hours, so I believe the residual wasp spray is the culprit.
Interestingly the poster quoted below says the active ingredient does
not persist in the environment very long.

Almost nothing more toxic to fish than pyrethroids, the type of poison
in wasp spray. Some pyrethroids are so toxic to
fish that the amount needed to kill the fish cannot be measured in the
water (part per trillion).

Check the label, if it says something like "resmethrin, permethrin,
tetramethrin, or any other -methrin", keep it far away
from the fish pond.

We spray wasps out in the lake with soap. Doesn't work very fast, but
it works.

For koi ponds, something like malathion or Dylox will kill the wasps,
but also not quickly. Those are not very toxic to
fish. Even rotenone (commonly used to kill fish) is not very toxic to
fish, takes a lot to kill them.

You might try orthene, smells bad, but not very toxic to fish, also
not fast at killing wasps.

Pyrethroids work very fast, are not very toxic to mammals, do not
persist in the environment, and are fairly "safe" as such
things go, just not for fish.