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#1
19-01-2004, 04:21 PM
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Pipes freezing?
Hi all,
I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT, I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making. All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground. Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper. thanks, DLC -- ================================================== ========================== * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com * * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 * ================================================== ========================== |
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#2
19-01-2004, 11:23 PM
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Pipes freezing?
On 19 Jan 2004 16:07:45 GMT, Dennis Clark wrote:
I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. What's the possibility of cutting a piece of liner to cover the bottom drain at the bottom of the pond and opening the valve to allow the pipe to empty from the bottom drain to the end? Sound too risky? How about heat tapes sold to prevent pipe freezing? Wrapped in something to insulate the pipe of course. Regards, Hal |
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#3
19-01-2004, 11:23 PM
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Pipes freezing?
On 19 Jan 2004 16:07:45 GMT, Dennis Clark wrote:
I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. What's the possibility of cutting a piece of liner to cover the bottom drain at the bottom of the pond and opening the valve to allow the pipe to empty from the bottom drain to the end? Sound too risky? How about heat tapes sold to prevent pipe freezing? Wrapped in something to insulate the pipe of course. Regards, Hal |
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#4
20-01-2004, 12:37 AM
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Pipes freezing?
If you can, plug the bottom drain and let it drain, or put in a stand pipe
that comes above the water line and let the water drain from the bottom drain at the pump. Having valves in the system near the surface can cause the pipes and valves to crack and break. The other alternative, if the pump is near water level, is to pump the pond down to below the pump level and then remove the pump. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html "Dennis Clark" wrote in message ... Hi all, I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT, I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making. All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground. Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper. thanks, DLC -- ================================================== ========================== * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com * * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 * ================================================== ========================== |
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#5
20-01-2004, 12:42 AM
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Pipes freezing?
RichToyBox wrote:
??? I don't think I described everything well. The bottom drain is still two feet below the surface, on the surface is where the pump is, so, there is no way to empty the bottom drain without draining the entire pond, and even that will leave standing water in the pipe below the surface. It doesn't seem water smart to drain three thousand gallons of water to get the level below the pump, and I'm not sure that would help. I would love to be able to drain the pipe to the bottom drain, but I don't see how that is possible. I've already drained the upper pond, by dumping it into the lower (six thousand gallon) pond, so I don't need to worry about that. The filter is also drained now, the only pond water left is in the big lower pond, which has a skimmer (easy to drain) and the bottom drain (as desicribed) as well as the pump's piping. I would rather not put heater tape on the pipes unless I really have to, that is a HUGE power cost isn't it? regards, DLC : If you can, plug the bottom drain and let it drain, or put in a stand pipe : that comes above the water line and let the water drain from the bottom : drain at the pump. Having valves in the system near the surface can cause : the pipes and valves to crack and break. The other alternative, if the pump : is near water level, is to pump the pond down to below the pump level and : then remove the pump. : -- : RichToyBox : http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html : "Dennis Clark" wrote in message : ... : Hi all, : : I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a : waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge : freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over : the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons : I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT, : I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond : there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but : below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the : bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the : pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being : paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent : that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using : schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making. : All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground. : : Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost : of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is : four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper. : : thanks, : DLC : -- : : ================================================== ========================== : * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com : * : * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 : * : : ================================================== ========================== -- ================================================== ========================== * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com * * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 * ================================================== ========================== |
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#6
20-01-2004, 04:33 PM
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Pipes freezing?
On 20 Jan 2004 00:38:44 GMT, Dennis Clark wrote:
I would rather not put heater tape on the pipes unless I really have to, that is a HUGE power cost isn't it? That may depend on the type available to you. The last couple I bought from Lowe's some years ago were 100 watt with a thermostat built in so they come on at close to freezing temperatures. You would also need to wrap some type of insulation over the heat tapes to make them effective. Wrapping the insulation over the pipe would be enough to prevent freezing here, but our Georgia winters are mild. Regards, Hal |
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#7
21-01-2004, 01:13 AM
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Pipes freezing?
You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water
level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water level in the pond. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html "Dennis Clark" wrote in message ... RichToyBox wrote: ??? I don't think I described everything well. The bottom drain is still two feet below the surface, on the surface is where the pump is, so, there is no way to empty the bottom drain without draining the entire pond, and even that will leave standing water in the pipe below the surface. It doesn't seem water smart to drain three thousand gallons of water to get the level below the pump, and I'm not sure that would help. I would love to be able to drain the pipe to the bottom drain, but I don't see how that is possible. I've already drained the upper pond, by dumping it into the lower (six thousand gallon) pond, so I don't need to worry about that. The filter is also drained now, the only pond water left is in the big lower pond, which has a skimmer (easy to drain) and the bottom drain (as desicribed) as well as the pump's piping. I would rather not put heater tape on the pipes unless I really have to, that is a HUGE power cost isn't it? regards, DLC : If you can, plug the bottom drain and let it drain, or put in a stand pipe : that comes above the water line and let the water drain from the bottom : drain at the pump. Having valves in the system near the surface can cause : the pipes and valves to crack and break. The other alternative, if the pump : is near water level, is to pump the pond down to below the pump level and : then remove the pump. : -- : RichToyBox : http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html : "Dennis Clark" wrote in message : ... : Hi all, : : I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a : waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge : freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over : the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons : I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT, : I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond : there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but : below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the : bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the : pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being : paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent : that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using : schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making. : All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground. : : Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost : of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is : four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper. : : thanks, : DLC : -- : : ================================================== ========================== : * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com : * : * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 : * : : ================================================== ========================== -- ================================================== ========================== * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com * * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 * ================================================== ========================== |
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#8
21-01-2004, 01:13 AM
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Pipes freezing?
You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water
level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water level in the pond. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html "Dennis Clark" wrote in message ... RichToyBox wrote: ??? I don't think I described everything well. The bottom drain is still two feet below the surface, on the surface is where the pump is, so, there is no way to empty the bottom drain without draining the entire pond, and even that will leave standing water in the pipe below the surface. It doesn't seem water smart to drain three thousand gallons of water to get the level below the pump, and I'm not sure that would help. I would love to be able to drain the pipe to the bottom drain, but I don't see how that is possible. I've already drained the upper pond, by dumping it into the lower (six thousand gallon) pond, so I don't need to worry about that. The filter is also drained now, the only pond water left is in the big lower pond, which has a skimmer (easy to drain) and the bottom drain (as desicribed) as well as the pump's piping. I would rather not put heater tape on the pipes unless I really have to, that is a HUGE power cost isn't it? regards, DLC : If you can, plug the bottom drain and let it drain, or put in a stand pipe : that comes above the water line and let the water drain from the bottom : drain at the pump. Having valves in the system near the surface can cause : the pipes and valves to crack and break. The other alternative, if the pump : is near water level, is to pump the pond down to below the pump level and : then remove the pump. : -- : RichToyBox : http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html : "Dennis Clark" wrote in message : ... : Hi all, : : I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a : waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge : freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over : the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons : I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT, : I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond : there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but : below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the : bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the : pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being : paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent : that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using : schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making. : All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground. : : Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost : of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is : four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper. : : thanks, : DLC : -- : : ================================================== ========================== : * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com : * : * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 : * : : ================================================== ========================== -- ================================================== ========================== * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com * * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 * ================================================== ========================== |
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#9
21-01-2004, 07:22 PM
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Pipes freezing?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:10:14 GMT, "RichToyBox"
wrote: You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water level in the pond. I like your idea about the stand pipe, but I couldn't remember a thread or fitting I could seal a pipe in mine after I removed the bottom drain dome. That would be the ideal fix. Regards, Hal |
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#10
21-01-2004, 07:22 PM
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Pipes freezing?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:10:14 GMT, "RichToyBox"
wrote: You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water level in the pond. I like your idea about the stand pipe, but I couldn't remember a thread or fitting I could seal a pipe in mine after I removed the bottom drain dome. That would be the ideal fix. Regards, Hal |
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#11
22-01-2004, 11:15 PM
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Pipes freezing?
Hal wrote:
A stand pipe would be a great fix. I don't think that a simple friction fit into that hold under the dome will be reliable however, even a tiny leak will eventually fill the pipe. However, I found a simple one. The key is that I can't let the end of the pipe get cold enough to freeze. I built an enclosure around the pipes and pump area, insulated it and am designing a thermostatically controlled circuit to turn a 20 watt light bulb on when the temp falls below 35 degrees F. The enclosure has both the bottom drain intake up from the ground and the pump output to the filter within it. What is under the ground is a "who cares" since that is protected by being almost three feet under the ground. Where the pipes are above ground that either has no water in it or comes out within my enclosure, which is heated. It doesn't take much to heat 8-10 cubic feet of space, that 20 watt bulb should do, but I'll go to 25 or 40 if need be, that is CHEAP compared to 1500 watt water heaters and 300 watt pumps. I think that this will do the job nicely, simply and inexpensively. If anyone is interested in a similar solution, I'll make my design available should interest make it useful. thanks for the ideas guys, DLC : On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:10:14 GMT, "RichToyBox" : wrote: :You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water :level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom :drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water :level in the pond. : I like your idea about the stand pipe, but I couldn't remember a : thread or fitting I could seal a pipe in mine after I removed the : bottom drain dome. That would be the ideal fix. : Regards, : Hal -- ================================================== ========================== * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com * * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 * ================================================== ========================== |
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#12
22-01-2004, 11:17 PM
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Pipes freezing?
Hal wrote:
A stand pipe would be a great fix. I don't think that a simple friction fit into that hold under the dome will be reliable however, even a tiny leak will eventually fill the pipe. However, I found a simple one. The key is that I can't let the end of the pipe get cold enough to freeze. I built an enclosure around the pipes and pump area, insulated it and am designing a thermostatically controlled circuit to turn a 20 watt light bulb on when the temp falls below 35 degrees F. The enclosure has both the bottom drain intake up from the ground and the pump output to the filter within it. What is under the ground is a "who cares" since that is protected by being almost three feet under the ground. Where the pipes are above ground that either has no water in it or comes out within my enclosure, which is heated. It doesn't take much to heat 8-10 cubic feet of space, that 20 watt bulb should do, but I'll go to 25 or 40 if need be, that is CHEAP compared to 1500 watt water heaters and 300 watt pumps. I think that this will do the job nicely, simply and inexpensively. If anyone is interested in a similar solution, I'll make my design available should interest make it useful. thanks for the ideas guys, DLC : On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:10:14 GMT, "RichToyBox" : wrote: :You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water :level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom :drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water :level in the pond. : I like your idea about the stand pipe, but I couldn't remember a : thread or fitting I could seal a pipe in mine after I removed the : bottom drain dome. That would be the ideal fix. : Regards, : Hal -- ================================================== ========================== * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com * * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 * ================================================== ========================== |
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#13
23-01-2004, 04:08 PM
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Pipes freezing?
On 22 Jan 2004 22:55:42 GMT, Dennis Clark wrote:
I built an enclosure around the pipes and pump area, insulated it and am designing a thermostatically controlled circuit to turn a 20 watt light bulb on when the temp falls below 35 degrees F. Sounds like a good fix to me! Regards, Hal |
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