Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding and dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and when I tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water changes, adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc. and the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large, "been with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot, especially when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them from only a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around the pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I killed them or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions: why is it I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and only the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way around with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew WHAT I was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's a place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

Sorry for your loss. They become so sentimental dont they?
The Nitrite build-up was just a natural process, maybe your pond had alot of
dead vegetation and as soon as the temps starting rising then so did the
Nitrite, if your filter was not running or maybe overloaded already it did
not have the ability to convert the nitrites fast enough. Maybe next year
you should turn your filters on sooner. Has your fish population increased
at all, this could also be the culprit. Maybe you should invest in or build
another filter with more bio surface area. HTH
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"SueAndHerZoo" wrote in message
news:MUT9c.2098$9g.1660@lakeread04...
Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding and dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and when I
tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water changes,
adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc. and the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large, "been
with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot, especially
when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them from only
a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around the
pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I killed them
or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions: why is it
I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and only the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way around with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew WHAT I
was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's a place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:38:23 -0500, "SueAndHerZoo"
wrote:

It would be easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew WHAT I was
dealing with.

I'm sorry to hear about your losing fish, but unless you sent a dead
one to a lab and found out exactly what killed it, I don't believe
anyone here can tell you why it died. It may well have been a
number of things not mentioned here that killed your fish and nothing
you could have done to change that. We all provide the best
conditions we can for our fish and hope for the best, but some die in
spite of our efforts.

Regards,

Hal

Sorry Sue. It hurts to lose them, especially the ones you've had a long
time.

As to why you lost fish this year, there are several possibilities. One -
they grew. You may not have any more fish in number, but if their total
length was factored in due to their growth, it's the equivalent of adding
more fish. One 18" fish requires a whole lot more than 3 6" fish. As to
why you lost the larger ones, that's classic oxygen deficiency. Especially
if you found them dead in the morning. Smaller fish have less oxygen demand,
so they can handle the shortage better, which is one of the few times that
smaller fish have it better than larger ones (it's normally the other way
around: larger fish are stronger).

NitrItes are resultant from the filters kicking back in: ammonia --
nitrIte -- nitrAte. You can use ammonia binders to protect the fish from
that, so you get a Zero ammonia reading, but the filter is still processing
it. The next step is the nitrIte, then nitrAte. Usually nitrIte poisoning
can be controlled with salt - as little as .15 ppm will avoid brown blood
disease.

I don't think your larger fish died from nitrItes. It was probably oxygen
deficiency - or perhaps something else. NitrItes also damage the gills -
little fish have less gill surface and will show the effects more quickly.
They're still alive. Keep the airstones going: I've never heard of a fish
that died from too much oxygen in its water, but I've known plenty that died
from too little. It can only help.

Again, sorry for the loss of your babies. It hurts.

Lee


"SueAndHerZoo" wrote in message
news:MUT9c.2098$9g.1660@lakeread04...
Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding and dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and when I
tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water changes,
adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc. and the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large, "been
with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot, especially
when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them from only
a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around the
pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I killed them
or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions: why is it
I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and only the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way around with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew WHAT I
was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's a place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

Thank you Happy Camper, Hal, and Lee . . . I really do feel better after
reading your kind words. It's so comforting to know that there are other
people who really feel the loss of "just fish". I was getting teary-eyed
at the office this morning when someone asked me how my pond was doing (a
thoughtful question from someone I hadn't seen since last spring) and the
lady who sits nearby shouted out "I don't know about her pond, but SHE needs
to get a life - she's actually upset about some of her fish dying!"
It's not even worth trying to explain to people like that what they don't
know.

Anyway, you all had great thoughts on the topic, and as tempted as I was to
answer "no, fish population was pretty much the same", that's absolutely not
true since they all had grown bigger. Just as an added note, the dead fish
did not die in a pretty state. They all had blood in their fins and some
areas of their bodies, and the fins were all frayed and tattered looking.

Yes, next year I will start the pump earlier, add airstones earlier, and
hope to heck winter ENDS earlier next year! Thanks again.
Sue
"Lee B." wrote in message
...
Sorry Sue. It hurts to lose them, especially the ones you've had a long
time.

As to why you lost fish this year, there are several possibilities. One -
they grew. You may not have any more fish in number, but if their total
length was factored in due to their growth, it's the equivalent of adding
more fish. One 18" fish requires a whole lot more than 3 6" fish. As to
why you lost the larger ones, that's classic oxygen deficiency. Especially
if you found them dead in the morning. Smaller fish have less oxygen
demand,
so they can handle the shortage better, which is one of the few times that
smaller fish have it better than larger ones (it's normally the other way
around: larger fish are stronger).

NitrItes are resultant from the filters kicking back in: ammonia --
nitrIte -- nitrAte. You can use ammonia binders to protect the fish from
that, so you get a Zero ammonia reading, but the filter is still
processing
it. The next step is the nitrIte, then nitrAte. Usually nitrIte poisoning
can be controlled with salt - as little as .15 ppm will avoid brown blood
disease.

I don't think your larger fish died from nitrItes. It was probably oxygen
deficiency - or perhaps something else. NitrItes also damage the gills -
little fish have less gill surface and will show the effects more quickly.
They're still alive. Keep the airstones going: I've never heard of a fish
that died from too much oxygen in its water, but I've known plenty that
died
from too little. It can only help.

Again, sorry for the loss of your babies. It hurts.

Lee


"SueAndHerZoo" wrote in message
news:MUT9c.2098$9g.1660@lakeread04...
Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding and
dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and when I
tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water changes,
adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc. and
the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large, "been
with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot, especially
when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them from
only
a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around the
pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I killed them
or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions: why is
it
I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and only
the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way around
with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a
nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be easier
to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew WHAT I
was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's a
place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

Ahhhh.....I am so sorry for your loss. I have a 1 1/2 yr. old friendly
goldfish i wouldn't take money for, so i understand. Time will heal
you. And like you wanted, maybe you can learn and prevent it from
happening again. Last year i had thousands of tadpoles that i killed
trying to save. It took months to stop feeling guilty. This year i am
leaving well enough alone and will watch for stressed fish, then i'll
bring them in or something.





On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:38:23 -0500, "SueAndHerZoo"
wrote:

Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding and
dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and when I
tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water changes,
adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc. and
the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large,
"been with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot,
especially when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I
knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them from
only a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around
the pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I killed
them or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions: why
is it I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and only
the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way around
with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a
nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be
easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew
WHAT I was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's a
place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

Ahhhh.....I am so sorry for your loss. I have a 1 1/2 yr. old friendly
goldfish i wouldn't take money for, so i understand. Time will heal
you. And like you wanted, maybe you can learn and prevent it from
happening again. Last year i had thousands of tadpoles that i killed
trying to save. It took months to stop feeling guilty. This year i am
leaving well enough alone and will watch for stressed fish, then i'll
bring them in or something.





On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:38:23 -0500, "SueAndHerZoo"
wrote:

Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding and
dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and when I
tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water changes,
adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc. and
the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large,
"been with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot,
especially when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I
knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them from
only a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around
the pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I killed
them or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions: why
is it I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and only
the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way around
with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a
nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be
easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew
WHAT I was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's a
place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

Boy can I relate to THAT! I took two of the large koi and tried to "save"
them by putting them in a huge tub with 2/3 pond water and 1/3 tap water,
but of course I conditioned the tap water first, removed chlorine, etc. I
then added some salt and hoped I could miraculously heal them in this
hospital tub. Of course when they died I fel the horrible guilt as if I had
killed them trying to save them . . . I'll never know if they would have
made it had I left them alone. I, too, am going to leave well enough alone
from now on and do all I can WITHOUT disturbing the balance of things. The
change might be enough to push them over the edge. Of course, had they
died in the pond, I'd always wonder if I could have saved them by putting
them in a tub, etc. Guilt. What a useless, but powerful emotion.
Sue
"jammer" wrote in message
...


Ahhhh.....I am so sorry for your loss. I have a 1 1/2 yr. old friendly
goldfish i wouldn't take money for, so i understand. Time will heal
you. And like you wanted, maybe you can learn and prevent it from
happening again. Last year i had thousands of tadpoles that i killed
trying to save. It took months to stop feeling guilty. This year i am
leaving well enough alone and will watch for stressed fish, then i'll
bring them in or something.





On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:38:23 -0500, "SueAndHerZoo"
wrote:

Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding and
dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and when I
tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water changes,
adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc. and
the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large,
"been with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot,
especially when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I
knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them from
only a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around
the pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I killed
them or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions: why
is it I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and only
the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way around
with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a
nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be
easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew
WHAT I was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's a
place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

Exactly. It was after i removed them that they died. I'll never know.






On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:06:59 -0500, "SueAndHerZoo"
wrote:

Boy can I relate to THAT! I took two of the large koi and tried to
"save"
them by putting them in a huge tub with 2/3 pond water and 1/3 tap
water,
but of course I conditioned the tap water first, removed chlorine,
etc. I
then added some salt and hoped I could miraculously heal them in this
hospital tub. Of course when they died I fel the horrible guilt as
if I had
killed them trying to save them . . . I'll never know if they would
have
made it had I left them alone. I, too, am going to leave well enough
alone
from now on and do all I can WITHOUT disturbing the balance of
things. The
change might be enough to push them over the edge. Of course, had
they
died in the pond, I'd always wonder if I could have saved them by
putting
them in a tub, etc. Guilt. What a useless, but powerful emotion.
Sue
"jammer" wrote in message
.. .


Ahhhh.....I am so sorry for your loss. I have a 1 1/2 yr. old
friendly
goldfish i wouldn't take money for, so i understand. Time will heal
you. And like you wanted, maybe you can learn and prevent it from
happening again. Last year i had thousands of tadpoles that i
killed
trying to save. It took months to stop feeling guilty. This year i
am
leaving well enough alone and will watch for stressed fish, then
i'll
bring them in or something.





On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:38:23 -0500, "SueAndHerZoo"
wrote:

Hi. If you recall I wrote about a week ago with my koi hiding
and
dying.
Some of you suggested nitrite poisoning, which made sense, and
when I
tested
the water, the nitrites were high. I have been doing water
changes,
adding
salt, firing up the pump and filter, added 2 more airstones, etc.
and
the
water tests fine now. Unfortunately, I lost 4 of my very large,
"been with
me from the start" koi. I still break down and cry a lot,
especially when
I'm out working on the pond, and most people think I'm nuts, but I
knew
people here could relate - they were my "babies", I raised them
from
only a
couple of inches long, they ate out of my hand, followed me around
the pond,
etc. Of course a part of it is the guilt - I feel as if I
killed
them or
let them down.

But anyway, sorry for the venting, here are my real questions:
why
is it I
still have quite a few small fish and koi fry that survived, and
only
the
big ones didn't make it? I thought it would be the other way
around
with
nitrite poisoning. And secondly, I still need to know WHY I had a
nitrite
problem this winter - it's never happened before. It would be
easier to
deal with this and prevent it from ever happening again if I knew
WHAT I was
dealing with. Thanks for letting me vent - nice to know there's
a
place
where I can cry over fish and not feel like a fool.
Sue

lady who sits nearby shouted out "I don't know about her pond, but SHE needs
to get a life - she's actually upset about some of her fish dying!"

Sounds like someone needs to go to sensitivity traning. Sheesh.
You should have heard me threatening K30 this afternoon regarding taking
some of my frog spawn, not to leave it in the car! Shameless Am I.

Just as an added note, the dead fish
did not die in a pretty state. They all had blood in their fins and some
areas of their bodies, and the fins were all frayed and tattered looking.

Usually there is ammonia before nitrite, and the above sounds like serious
ammonia happened. Perhaps by the time you noticed a problem and checked it
the ammonia had converted to Nitrite.

Even a continous low level of ammonia can be stressful, as I found out last
year, when I hit Critical Mass. Now I have plenty of ammonia detoxer on
hand, and started testing my water early on. I've had one test show an
inkling of ammonia after I started the filter, so I treated it, so far so
good now. I have 5 fewer fish than last year at this time, so I should be
good. If I have trouble I've already picked out who gets sold.

Very important to have the treatments handy and fresh test kits, that you
use.
~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?)

lady who sits nearby shouted out "I don't know about her pond, but SHE needs
to get a life - she's actually upset about some of her fish dying!"

Sounds like someone needs to go to sensitivity traning. Sheesh.
You should have heard me threatening K30 this afternoon regarding taking
some of my frog spawn, not to leave it in the car! Shameless Am I.

Just as an added note, the dead fish
did not die in a pretty state. They all had blood in their fins and some
areas of their bodies, and the fins were all frayed and tattered looking.

Usually there is ammonia before nitrite, and the above sounds like serious
ammonia happened. Perhaps by the time you noticed a problem and checked it
the ammonia had converted to Nitrite.

Even a continous low level of ammonia can be stressful, as I found out last
year, when I hit Critical Mass. Now I have plenty of ammonia detoxer on
hand, and started testing my water early on. I've had one test show an
inkling of ammonia after I started the filter, so I treated it, so far so
good now. I have 5 fewer fish than last year at this time, so I should be
good. If I have trouble I've already picked out who gets sold.

Very important to have the treatments handy and fresh test kits, that you
use.
~ jan (Do you know where your water quality is?)