In the last month, I've found two of my goldfish in my outdoor pond
dead. The water chemistry is fine except for the hardness being too
low. I added a bunch of dolomite lime almost a month ago after the
first fish died, and the hardness is improving, although the pH today
was still on the low side. I don't know of any toxins that could
have gotten into the water, and the fish showed no obvious sign of
injury. Is there something else I should be doing or thinking about
to protect my remaining fish?

Thanks.

Joan
___________________

next time do a quick physical, especially looking at slime coat and gills.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disea...ue.html#Jo_Ann's_Fish_Physical
when nothing shows on outside and no symptoms it is "sudden death" and this is fast
changing water parameters, like loss of oxygen or toxic spike ... or, it could be
internal bacteria. Ingrid

JGW wrote:

In the last month, I've found two of my goldfish in my outdoor pond
dead. The water chemistry is fine except for the hardness being too
low. I added a bunch of dolomite lime almost a month ago after the
first fish died, and the hardness is improving, although the pH today
was still on the low side. I don't know of any toxins that could
have gotten into the water, and the fish showed no obvious sign of
injury. Is there something else I should be doing or thinking about
to protect my remaining fish?

Thanks.

Joan
___________________




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Joan, We need more specific information about the readings from
your pond. What is the KH? pH? Do you have a test kit?
I for one would be hard pressed to advise anything without
specifics ;-)

Nedra in Missouri
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"JGW" wrote in message
...
In the last month, I've found two of my goldfish in my outdoor pond
dead. The water chemistry is fine except for the hardness being too
low. I added a bunch of dolomite lime almost a month ago after the
first fish died, and the hardness is improving, although the pH today
was still on the low side. I don't know of any toxins that could
have gotten into the water, and the fish showed no obvious sign of
injury. Is there something else I should be doing or thinking about
to protect my remaining fish?

Thanks.

Joan
___________________

Thanks for responding. I did look quickly at the fish, and I noticed
a purplish discoloration around her abdomen. I couldn't tell if she
had been injured or was sick, or whether maybe she had been dead a
while and the color change meant she was beginning to decompose. Any
thoughts about that?

Thanks for the link to the Fish Physical website. That's great to
have!

Joan

next time do a quick physical, especially looking at slime coat and gills.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disea...ue.html#Jo_Ann's_Fish_Physical
when nothing shows on outside and no symptoms it is "sudden death" and this is fast
changing water parameters, like loss of oxygen or toxic spike ... or, it could be
internal bacteria. Ingrid

Hi, Nedra.

I have a "Master Test Kit" On 5/2/04, when I found the first fish
dead, the pH was 8.2 (late afternoon). The KH was 53.7 ppm and the GH
was 71.6 ppm. Several days later, I tested the pH first thing in the
morning and it was around 7.0. That was when I added the dolomite
lime.

Today, when I found the second fish, the pH was between 6.8 and 7.0
(around noon). The kH was 71.6 ppm and the GH was 107.4 ppm.

I am thinking I may be having too large pH swings and that the water
hardness is too low. I have the dolomite hanging in the water in a
leg from a pair of panty hose, and periodically I squish it around to
try to release more into the water. It hangs right below the
waterfall.

Joan


Joan, We need more specific information about the readings from
your pond. What is the KH? pH? Do you have a test kit?
I for one would be hard pressed to advise anything without
specifics ;-)

Nedra in Missouri
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

Joan ... Thanks for the specifics!
Okaaay Here goes ...
If it were me I would remove the lime and start (in the morning) to add
baking
soda --- 1 pound to 1,000 gallons of water. Only plan to change out
1/3 of the volume of pond water at a time. In other words take 3 days to
get your pond up to the 1 lb to 1,000 point. I dilute the baking soda (plain
ole
Arm & Hammer) in a big jar of pond water and add it around the perimeter of
the pond. Baking Soda will bring up the hardness of the pond water (KH)
and even out the pH to 8.4 ... which I think is about perfect

We've had huge amounts of rain here in the St. Louis area -
This acidifies the pond water so I have to add baking
soda on a regular basis during the spring and summer. This could be the
reason your KH and pH is low....

HTH

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"JGW" wrote in message
...
Hi, Nedra.

I have a "Master Test Kit" On 5/2/04, when I found the first fish
dead, the pH was 8.2 (late afternoon). The KH was 53.7 ppm and the GH
was 71.6 ppm. Several days later, I tested the pH first thing in the
morning and it was around 7.0. That was when I added the dolomite
lime.

Today, when I found the second fish, the pH was between 6.8 and 7.0
(around noon). The kH was 71.6 ppm and the GH was 107.4 ppm.

I am thinking I may be having too large pH swings and that the water
hardness is too low. I have the dolomite hanging in the water in a
leg from a pair of panty hose, and periodically I squish it around to
try to release more into the water. It hangs right below the
waterfall.

Joan


Joan, We need more specific information about the readings from
your pond. What is the KH? pH? Do you have a test kit?
I for one would be hard pressed to advise anything without
specifics ;-)

Nedra in Missouri
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

Internal spawning injuries and/or infected eggs would account for what you see.
spawning bruises most certainly would look purplish. Ingrid

JGW wrote:
Thanks for responding. I did look quickly at the fish, and I noticed
a purplish discoloration around her abdomen. I couldn't tell if she
had been injured or was sick, or whether maybe she had been dead a
while and the color change meant she was beginning to decompose. Any
thoughts about that?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"JGW" wrote in message
...
Hi, Nedra.

I have a "Master Test Kit" On 5/2/04, when I found the first fish
dead, the pH was 8.2 (late afternoon). The KH was 53.7 ppm and the GH
was 71.6 ppm. Several days later, I tested the pH first thing in the
morning and it was around 7.0. That was when I added the dolomite
lime.

Today, when I found the second fish, the pH was between 6.8 and 7.0
(around noon). The kH was 71.6 ppm and the GH was 107.4 ppm.

I am thinking I may be having too large pH swings and that the water
hardness is too low. I have the dolomite hanging in the water in a
leg from a pair of panty hose, and periodically I squish it around to
try to release more into the water. It hangs right below the
waterfall.

Your numbers...

KH 53.7 to 71.6
GH 71.6 to 107.4
pH 8.2 to 6.8/7.0

These seem like fairly large swings in water chemistry. What about ammonia?
Do you have any ammonia readings? How about Oxegynation? Are the fish
looking for air up top? I am wondering if these swings in chemistry could be
aggrevating some other condition like an ammonia spike or lack of
oxygenation.

BV.

"JGW" wrote in message
...
Hi, Nedra.

I have a "Master Test Kit" On 5/2/04, when I found the first fish
dead, the pH was 8.2 (late afternoon). The KH was 53.7 ppm and the GH
was 71.6 ppm. Several days later, I tested the pH first thing in the
morning and it was around 7.0. That was when I added the dolomite
lime.

Today, when I found the second fish, the pH was between 6.8 and 7.0
(around noon). The kH was 71.6 ppm and the GH was 107.4 ppm.

I am thinking I may be having too large pH swings and that the water
hardness is too low. I have the dolomite hanging in the water in a
leg from a pair of panty hose, and periodically I squish it around to
try to release more into the water. It hangs right below the
waterfall.

Your numbers...

KH 53.7 to 71.6
GH 71.6 to 107.4
pH 8.2 to 6.8/7.0

These seem like fairly large swings in water chemistry. What about ammonia?
Do you have any ammonia readings? How about Oxegynation? Are the fish
looking for air up top? I am wondering if these swings in chemistry could be
aggrevating some other condition like an ammonia spike or lack of
oxygenation.

BV.

You can put the dolomitic lime in your filter instead of the sock. but it seems it
has done the job of adding a buffer. Baking soda may increase the pH quickly (not
desirable), but it wont provide lasting stability cause the bicarb breaks down to CO2
and leaves the pond. That is where the dolomitic limestone comes in. It slowly
releases on demand as needed, almost like having limestone in the pond. anything
above 50 is OK, altho higher is better.
It is expected that pH is low in morning as the CO2 has been removed during the night
by plants in the water. During the day CO2 and O2 levels increase with pH peaking
right before sunset. But the more plants (algae) in the water, the larger the swing
.... do you have green water? It could be if your water is green and warm then the
plants are using up the oxygen... especially if you dont have sufficient oxygenation.


So maybe other people could share what their morning and late afternoon pH is? I did
a search to find out what "normal" swings are but I think this group could provide
the data. Please include pH out of the tap and if you have noticed pH shifts after
heavy rains.

Ingrid



"JGW" wrote in message
I have a "Master Test Kit" On 5/2/04, when I found the first fish
dead, the pH was 8.2 (late afternoon). The KH was 53.7 ppm and the GH
was 71.6 ppm. Several days later, I tested the pH first thing in the
morning and it was around 7.0. That was when I added the dolomite
lime.
Today, when I found the second fish, the pH was between 6.8 and 7.0
(around noon). The kH was 71.6 ppm and the GH was 107.4 ppm.
I am thinking I may be having too large pH swings and that the water
hardness is too low. I have the dolomite hanging in the water in a
leg from a pair of panty hose, and periodically I squish it around to
try to release more into the water. It hangs right below the
waterfall.

Your numbers...

KH 53.7 to 71.6
GH 71.6 to 107.4
pH 8.2 to 6.8/7.0



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[snipped for bandwidth]

Your numbers...

KH 53.7 to 71.6
GH 71.6 to 107.4
pH 8.2 to 6.8/7.0

These seem like fairly large swings in water chemistry. What about ammonia?
Do you have any ammonia readings? How about Oxegynation? Are the fish
looking for air up top? I am wondering if these swings in chemistry could be
aggrevating some other condition like an ammonia spike or lack of
oxygenation.

BV.


Hi, Thanks for writing back. The ammonia and nitrite have been
consistently testing negative. I haven't seen any fish looking for
air up top, and we have an air bubbler and a waterfall in the pond, so
I think the oxygenation should be okay. I don't know how to measure
it, though. I did notice that, yesterday, there weren't quite as many
air bubbles coming up from the air pump as there should be, so I
cleaned the air pump and it improved. It's been a big spring for
string algae. Hmmm, I wonder if that could be related to anything?

Joan

Thanks

Joan ... Thanks for the specifics!
Okaaay Here goes ...
If it were me I would remove the lime and start (in the morning) to add
baking
soda ---

[snipped for bandwidth]

Hi! Thanks so much. I'm glad to know about the baking soda, and also
about the rain. We have had a lot of rain lately.

Joan

You can put the dolomitic lime in your filter instead of the sock.

Oh that is a good idea! I never thought about adding it directly to
the filter. It won't clog it up?

but it seems it
has done the job of adding a buffer. Baking soda may increase the pH quickly (not
desirable), but it wont provide lasting stability cause the bicarb breaks down to CO2
and leaves the pond. That is where the dolomitic limestone comes in. It slowly
releases on demand as needed, almost like having limestone in the pond. anything
above 50 is OK, altho higher is better.

Oh, okay. Thanks. I added some more today, directly to the filter.

It is expected that pH is low in morning as the CO2 has been removed during the night
by plants in the water. During the day CO2 and O2 levels increase with pH peaking
right before sunset. But the more plants (algae) in the water, the larger the swing
... do you have green water? It could be if your water is green and warm then the
plants are using up the oxygen... especially if you dont have sufficient oxygenation.

Ah. Well, we have had an enormous amount of algae this year. It just
started to come under some degree of control within the last month.
The water itself isn't too green. But the algae have been clogging up
the pumps a lot. We do have a good-sized air bubbler in the pond.
It's about the size of a regular pump and it runs 24/7. Plus we have
a waterfall that runs most of the day. So I think there should be
plenty of oxygen, but who knows? Is there a way to find out? Should
I be adding hydrogen peroxide to the water??

[snipped for bandwidth]

Thanks so much for your input.

Joan

"JGW" wrote in message
...
snip
Hi! Thanks so much. I'm glad to know about the baking soda, and also
about the rain. We have had a lot of rain lately.
snip

Lots of rain? What's your runoff situation like? Could something nasty be
running into the pond?

BV.

Lots of rain? What's your runoff situation like? Could something nasty be
running into the pond?

BV.


Good question.

A couple of months ago, we did get the house power washed. They used
bleach, but they didn't use it on the side of the house near the pond.
It's possible the wind could have blown some in, but I added De-Chlor
as a preventative afterwards.

Also, about that time, an exterminator came and sprayed around the
house. He uses a pyrethrin-based product. Again, though, we watched
him closely to make sure that he stayed away from the pond. I guess
it's not impossible some could have gotten in.

I can't think of anything else. We have no nearby neighbors and our
wastewater is discharged downhill of the pond. We don't use chemicals
on the lawn.

We did have an awful lot of algae this year, so I guess it's possible
we're a little oxygen depleted. We run an air bubbler in the pond
24/7 and we have a waterfall, though, and I haven't seen any fish
gasping for air at the surface of the water. I guess I need to check
early in the AM.

Joan